Talking points: A critique of Bill Cosby on his criticism of today's youth

Sun Devil

Sun Devil

Death and Taxes
First and foremost I have the utmost respect for Mr. Cosby despite my sociopolitical difference regarding people within the urban community. I recently became aware of Mr. Dyson's critcism of Cosby's diatribe on the black community. I really think after reading some of his excerpts in his response to Cosby, Dyson raises some compelling arguments in response. The following are just brief excerpts of Mr. Dyson's response to Mr. Cosby


Cosby: "People with their hat on backwards, pants down around the crack. Isn't that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up (laughter and clapping)."

Dyson: "Baggy clothes express identity among black youth, and not just beginning with hip-hop culture. Moreover, young black entrepreneurs like Sean 'P. Diddy' Colms and Russell Simmons have made millions from their clothing lines."

Cosby: "Those people are not Africans, they don't know a damned thing about Africa. With names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed and all that crap and all of them are in jail."

Dyson: "Names like Shaniqua and Taliqua are meaningful cultural expressions of self-determination.I think that it does have something to do with African roots of black identity, and perhaps with Cosby's ignorance and discomfort with those roots.Cosby's ornery, ill-informed diatribe against black-naming is a snapshot of his assault on poor black identity." And "Given the vicious way blacks have been targeted for incarceration, Cosby's comments about poor blacks who end up in jail are dangerously naïve and empirically wrong."

Cosby: "The city and all these people have to pick up the tab on them [poor African Americans] because they don't want to accept that they have to study to get an education."

Dyson: "If the rigidly segregated education system continues to fail poor blacks by failing to prepare their children for the world of work, then admonitions to 'stay in school' may ring hollow.In suburban neighborhoods, there are $60-million schools with state-of-the-art technology, while inner city schools desperately fight for funding for their students."

Cosby:"I'm talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was two? (clapping) Where were you when he was twelve? (clapping) Where were you when he was eighteen, and how come you don't know he had a pistol? (clapping)"

Dyson: "And then there are the problems of the working poor: folk who rise up early every day and often work more than forty hours a week, and yet barely, if ever, make it above the poverty level. We must acknowledge the plight of both poor black (single) mothers and poor black fathers, and the lack of social support they confront. Hence, it is incredibly difficult to spend as much time with children as poor black parents might like, especially since they will be demonized if they fail to provide for their children's basic needs."

See Reference:http://www.michaelericdyson.com/cosby/points.html
 
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I think Mr Dyson is offering far more credit than what js due. We have heard nothing but excuses for bad behaivour. The jig reallt needs to be up.
 
How exactly is it relavant that Diddy making millions selling cloths that are in such poor taste that they can only be worn in strongly urban settings when for those chosing to reward Diddy they can find no emploment due to those garmets ? This effort of Mr Dyson to exvuse bad behavior is not beneficial to the youths, quite the opposite.
 
Celticguy said:
How exactly is it relavant that Diddy making millions selling cloths that are in such poor taste that they can only be worn in strongly urban settings when for those chosing to reward Diddy they can find no emploment due to those garmets ? This effort of Mr Dyson to exvuse bad behavior is not beneficial to the youths, quite the opposite.
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I think you missed Dyson's point when Dyson was referring to "urban clothing." Dyson is stating that urban clothing, the way pants are held up (sagging if you will) are mere expressions which is an association of the hip-hop trend. This is not a trend that is expressed by kids in inner the inner city but those who are impressionable about the hip-hop culture. Him mentioning P. Diddy was the relationship urban street clothing plays to the hip-hop culture. As far as these clothes made in "poor taste," well, I beg to differ:

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As far as people in these urban communities "rewarding P. Diddy all-the-while being unemployed" is a strong assumption, which needs to be corrected. First off there is a reason while African-Americans are mostly in the "working poor" bracket like many Americans. So if you're a working poor, you obviously have the financial means to purchase urban clothing. Now, whether that is a good choice or not depends on the person's situation. I think Dyson brought up an excellent point in explaining urban individualism and the complex social structure.
 
Sun Devil said:
s far as people in these urban communities "rewarding P. Diddy all-the-while being unemployed" is a strong assumption, which needs to be corrected. First off there is a reason while African-Americans are mostly in the "working poor" bracket like many Americans. So if you're a working poor, you obviously have the financial means to purchase urban clothing. Now, whether that is a good choice or not depends on the person's situation. I think Dyson brought up an excellent point in explaining urban individualism and the complex social structure.
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I get the point. Is it beneficial to appeal to impressionable kids to embrace lifestyle/wardrobe in ways that can only alienate them ? Worse still if you are if limited means and cannit afford multiple sets of wardrobe.
its making excuses and those excuses feed the problem of dropouts incarseration poverty etc
 
Celticguy said:
I get the point. Is it beneficial to appeal to impressionable kids to embrace lifestyle/wardrobe in ways that can only alienate them ? Worse still if you are if limited means and cannit afford multiple sets of wardrobe.
its making excuses and those excuses feed the problem of dropouts incarseration poverty etc
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I see your point and I agree about what you said in the following: "Is it beneficial to appeal to impressionable kids to embrace lifestyle/wardrobe in ways that can only alienate them?"

That was an excellent question you posed.

I don't think Dyson suggests an "excuse for bad behavior" or a young kid wearing his clothes in a sloppy manner, rather, he is expressing the understanding that there are multi-factors at work here when it comes to behavior of those in the impoverished communities. I think generation by generation many of these working poor families are merely trying to stay above water, not to mention deal with racial and the systemic effects upon the community. Many of these families I believe (this is just my theory) work so much or a parental figure is absent, that many of these kids are not equipped with the social tools to succeed in life.

This is why you see kids sagging in the streets or wearing sloppy clothing because no parental figure is being the dominant influence, and so you have hip-hop taking the role of parents. Hip-hop culture is so appealing because when you're poor yet you see another artist who was once poor but "made it" and he/she displays their "bling" its a type of illusion many impoverished people buy in. So many try to look the part such as buying expensive clothing, or wear their clothing a certain way because many of these kids are trying to be associated with this type of "coolness." These kids unfortunately face societal ridicule because society says that these kids, while dressing a certain way cannot be law abiding citizens. They have to be "thugs" they can't be trend setters nor can be fashionable.

I think the underlined question I would raise to Bill Cosby is, how can you assist a community if you ridicule it? In my opinion there is nothing sincere about a black man who chastises the working poor while building a history around the urban community (See Fat Albert). I think like Mr. Dyson, Mr. Cosby's reaction is nothing short of being inflammatory and it misses the complex structure of the community.
 
Sun Devil said:
I see your point and I agree about what you said in the following: "Is it beneficial to appeal to impressionable kids to embrace lifestyle/wardrobe in ways that can only alienate them?"

That was an excellent question you posed.

I don't think Dyson suggests an "excuse for bad behavior" or a young kid wearing his clothes in a sloppy manner, rather, he is expressing the understanding that there are multi-factors at work here when it comes to behavior of those in the impoverished communities. I think generation by generation many of these working poor families are merely trying to stay above water, not to mention deal with racial and the systemic effects upon the community. Many of these families I believe (this is just my theory) work so much or a parental figure is absent, that many of these kids are not equipped with the social tools to succeed in life.

This is why you see kids sagging in the streets or wearing sloppy clothing because no parental figure is being the dominant influence, and so you have hip-hop taking the role of parents. Hip-hop culture is so appealing because when you're poor yet you see another artist who was once poor but "made it" and he/she displays their "bling" its a type of illusion many impoverished people buy in. So many try to look the part such as buying expensive clothing, or wear their clothing a certain way because many of these kids are trying to be associated with this type of "coolness." These kids unfortunately face societal ridicule because society says that these kids, while dressing a certain way cannot be law abiding citizens. They have to be "thugs" they can't be trend setters nor can be fashionable.

I think the underlined question I would raise to Bill Cosby is, how can you assist a community if you ridicule it? In my opinion there is nothing sincere about a black man who chastises the working poor while building a history around the urban community (See Fat Albert). I think like Mr. Dyson, Mr. Cosby's reaction is nothing short of being inflammatory and it misses the complex structure of the community.
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Then why haven't you asked him, instead of sitting on your ass and typing out dismay?
 
Sun Devil said:
Yes I have such easy access to speak to Mr. Cosby (Rolls Eyes)...
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Send him a letter and tell him you would like to debate him, on his comments.
Just tell him that you're a Black; er: African American man.
What's the worse that could happen?
Don't be sceered. :)
 
Sun Devil said:
First and foremost I have the utmost respect for Mr. Cosby despite my sociopolitical difference regarding people within the urban community. I recently became aware of Mr. Dyson's critcism of Cosby's diatribe on the black community. I really think after reading some of his excerpts in his response to Cosby, Dyson raises some compelling arguments in response. The following are just brief excerpts of Mr. Dyson's response to Mr. Cosby


Cosby: "People with their hat on backwards, pants down around the crack. Isn't that a sign of something, or are you waiting for Jesus to pull his pants up (laughter and clapping)."

Dyson: "Baggy clothes express identity among black youth, and not just beginning with hip-hop culture. Moreover, young black entrepreneurs like Sean 'P. Diddy' Colms and Russell Simmons have made millions from their clothing lines."

Cosby: "Those people are not Africans, they don't know a damned thing about Africa. With names like Shaniqua, Shaligua, Mohammed and all that crap and all of them are in jail."

Dyson: "Names like Shaniqua and Taliqua are meaningful cultural expressions of self-determination.I think that it does have something to do with African roots of black identity, and perhaps with Cosby's ignorance and discomfort with those roots.Cosby's ornery, ill-informed diatribe against black-naming is a snapshot of his assault on poor black identity." And "Given the vicious way blacks have been targeted for incarceration, Cosby's comments about poor blacks who end up in jail are dangerously naïve and empirically wrong."

Cosby: "The city and all these people have to pick up the tab on them [poor African Americans] because they don't want to accept that they have to study to get an education."

Dyson: "If the rigidly segregated education system continues to fail poor blacks by failing to prepare their children for the world of work, then admonitions to 'stay in school' may ring hollow.In suburban neighborhoods, there are $60-million schools with state-of-the-art technology, while inner city schools desperately fight for funding for their students."

Cosby:"I'm talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was two? (clapping) Where were you when he was twelve? (clapping) Where were you when he was eighteen, and how come you don't know he had a pistol? (clapping)"

Dyson: "And then there are the problems of the working poor: folk who rise up early every day and often work more than forty hours a week, and yet barely, if ever, make it above the poverty level. We must acknowledge the plight of both poor black (single) mothers and poor black fathers, and the lack of social support they confront. Hence, it is incredibly difficult to spend as much time with children as poor black parents might like, especially since they will be demonized if they fail to provide for their children's basic needs."

See Reference:http://www.michaelericdyson.com/cosby/points.html
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The old “victimhood” thing again. Fact is way too many black Americans struggle to be free of poverty and jail because their race has too many icons like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and other race baiters like them offering excuses for the race in general by keeping them convinced that because of their skin color they’re automatically ”victims” of every other race on the planet.

Nearly every race and culture that found itself in America suffered discrimination but managed to quickly overcome it by proving they were the equals of every other race and or culture through self-determination, individual ambition and embracing personal responsibility. They didn’t accept the “victim” label. They went out and proved otherwise.

Too many black Americans still struggle with inequality because they enjoy victimhood. It’s an easy excuse so they even dress the unequal part to hang on to being excused for because they’re a victim. They have never overcome slavery because they enjoy the excuse of being enslaved/victimized.
 
Speaking of "pants down around the crack," I saw an overweight and 50ish white man who dropped something and bent over to pick it up and you could see almost all of his. I wonder why no one here is talking about plumbers and such? They are way worse than any of the hip hoppers I have seen they generally wear some underwear, I didn't see any under wear on this white guy and after he picked up whatever he dropped he made a big deal about pulling his pants up, but then he realized that some of whatever he dropped remained on the floor so he bent over again. It was damn gross, and I will have that image with me for years. When I told, Darla, about it, she wanted to know if I had gotten a picture. She thought I could put it in my new book, DOWN AND OUT...it was terrible. But like I said he was an older overweight white man, and there isn't a movement of any sort to try and kill off his kind, and no one is talking about the damage that image did to my mental state, and the others who were unwilling viewers of this man's horrendously gross crack, except by the fast food industry. And as we know that is a long slow process and doesn't come close to eradicating men like him before the age of 60 or more. Meanwhile ALEC is getting these kill a thug laws passed everywhere they can!
 
If Bill Cosby is indeed a serial rapist, does anyone give a fuck what he has to say? I don't. I want a full airing of those charges, and am supremely indifferent to his goddamned moralizing.
 
I have been looking into it and most of his accusers are Jane Doe's. The one who chose not to remain anonymous is white, but there is a black actress Lachele Covington, who publically accused him of sexual assault and attempted rape. I am willing to bet that at least some of the other alleged victims are black. I have had it up to here with this shit. R Kelly being a great example of a serial rapist of young black girls, who hasn't paid a price. I know for black women it can be difficult to navigate racial solidarity with gender solidarity but I'm white and for me it's a no-brainer - gender solidarity.

Bill Cosby has way too many women accusing him for there to be nothing there. He has some goddamned nerve preaching to young black men while sexually assaulting black women or any woman. He can go fuck himself. He doesn't get a free pass from me because he's black, anymore than Polanski or Allen get free passes because they're powerful white guys. This really burns me up.
 
Nemo said:
Notice how this thread has been turned into an accusation: Bill Cosby is a (serial) rapist. Where are these "victims"? Why haven't they come forward? Where's the evidence? Just think of the profit motive - the celebrity of being on TV and in the Tabloids - and getting your book deal. Where is the smoke? The answer is that there is no smoke because there is no fire.
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You should know that Darla is our resident radical gender feminist and an MRA (Middle Aged Race Apologist) except where Bill Cosby is concerned because he is not a liberal.
 
There are more blacks in jail because blacks commit more crime.

The only reason racism survives is because blacks remain the most racist and Jesse & Al make a lucrative living from racism.
 
Abraxas said:
You should know that Darla is our resident radical gender feminist and an MRA (Middle Aged Race Apologist) except where Bill Cosby is concerned because he is not a liberal.
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What's "liberal" about a gender Nazi? I don't believe that they're liberals, I know they're "leftist" not to be confused with "classical" liberalism by which America was founded.
 
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