The bible

[Ross Dolan]

OK let's see how YOU explain the 6 different things that Christ prophesied would happen and we can PROVE by history that did in fact happen.

You cannot PROVE anything about what Christ supposedly did or did not do by history. You cannot even prove Christ existed by history.

 

[ExpressLane]

You cannot PROVE anything about what Christ supposedly did or did not do by history. You cannot even prove Christ existed by history.

The gospels were written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem . So how did Luke know about the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[ExpressLane]

Because in #306 above you wrote: "I never said you said the temple would be destroyed or that Jews would be enslaved."

See post #314

 

[PostmodernProphet]

You cannot PROVE anything about what Christ supposedly did or did not do by history. You cannot even prove Christ existed by history.

we have written records from eyewitnesses that Jesus existed historically.......it is legitimate to say we cannot prove that he is God, but it is ridiculous to claim his existence cannot be proved...

 

[Cypress]

The gospels were written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem . So how did Luke know about the destruction of Jerusalem.

Most reputable New Testament scholars believe the four gospels were written between 70 and 100 AD, after the destruction of the Second Temple.

That makes them prophecies after the fact.

The only part of the New Testament unequivocally written before the destruction of the Second Temple are the epistles which are reliably attributed to Paul. I might be wrong, but I don't think there is any prophecy about the second temple in those letters.

 

[ExpressLane]

Most reputable New Testament scholars believe the four gospels were written between 70 and 100 AD, after the destruction of the Second Temple.

That makes them prophecies after the fact.

The only part of the New Testament unequivocally written before the destruction of the Second Temple are the epistles which are reliably attributed to Paul. I might be wrong, but I don't think there is any prophecy about the second temple in those letters.

The very fact there is NO MENTION of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the gospels points to the fact that Jerusalem and the Temple were still standing when the gospels were written. If the center of the Jewish religion was destroyed it would have been mentioned in the gospels.. It is incomprehensible to think that the writers would forget to mention Jerusalem and the Temple were no longer there.

1. The City of Jerusalem and the Temple Were Still Standing When the Gospels Were Written
The first three Gospels, and possibly also the fourth, were apparently written while the city of Jerusalem was still standing. Each of the first three Gospels contains predictions by Jesus concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21), but none records the fulfillment. We know that Titus the Roman destroyed the city and Temple in A.D. 70. Hence, the composition of the first three Gospels most likely occurred sometime before this event, otherwise their destruction would have been recorded. The fact that all four gospels are written from the perspective that the city of Jerusalem and the temple had not been destroyed gives evidence of an early date.

2. The Book of Acts Gives a Clue to the Date of the Gospels
The Book of Acts also provides us with a clue as to when the gospels were written. Acts records the highlights in the life and ministry of the Apostle Paul. The book concludes with Paul at Rome awaiting trial before Caesar. It says:

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. (Acts 28:30-31 KJV)
The New Living Translation reads:

For the next two years, Paul lived in his own rented house. He welcomed all who visited him, proclaiming the Kingdom of God with all boldness and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ. And no one tried to stop him. (Acts 28:30-31 NLT)
The inference is that Acts was written while Paul was still alive, seeing that his death is not recorded. Since there is good evidence that Paul died in the Neronian persecution about A.D. 67, the Book of Acts can be dated approximately A.D. 62.

3. Luke’s Gospel Was Written Earlier than Acts
If Acts were written about A.D. 62, then this helps us date the four gospels. The Book of Acts is the second half of a treatise written by Luke to a man named Theophilus. Since we know that the Gospel of Luke was written before the Book of Acts, we can then date the Gospel of Luke sometime around A.D. 60 or before.

4. The Brother Who Was Well-Known May Have Been Luke
There may be further evidence for an early date for Luke’s gospel. Paul wrote of a brother who was well-known among the churches for the gospel:

And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel. (2 Corinthians 8:18 TNIV)
There is ancient testimony that this refers to Luke and his written gospel. If this is speaking of Luke and the gospel he composed, then we have it well-known in the mid-fifties of the first century.

5. Mark May Have Been a Source for Luke
There may be a reference in the writings of Luke that he used Mark as a written source. John Mark is called a “minister” by Luke in Acts 13:5 (the Greek word huparetas). In 1:2, Luke says he derived the information for his gospel from those who were “eyewitnesses” and “ministers” of the word. The term translated “minister” is the same Greek word huparetas. It is possible that this could be a reference to Mark as one of his written sources.

6. Mark Was Likely Written Before Luke
Furthermore, modern scholarship has generally assumed that the Gospel of Mark was written before Luke. If this is the case, then we are somewhere in the fifties of the first century when this book was composed. Since Jesus’ death and resurrection occurred approximately in the year A.D. 33, these two gospels were written during the time when eyewitnesses, both friendly and unfriendly, were still alive. These eyewitnesses could either verify or falsify the information contained in the gospels.

7. Matthew Was Always Believed to Have Been Written First
We now go a step further by considering Matthew’s gospel. According to the unanimous testimony of the early church, Matthew was the first gospel written. The church father Eusebius places the date of Matthew’s gospel in A.D. 41. If the ancient testimony is true, and there is no reason to doubt it, then we have a third independent source about the life of Christ written during the eyewitness period.

8. John Was an Eyewitness to the Events
The Gospel of John is usually assumed to have been the last of the four gospels composed. John testified that he was an eyewitness to the events that he recorded. He said:

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30-31 ESV)
The New Living Translation puts it this way:

Jesus’ disciples saw him do many other miraculous signs besides the ones recorded in this book. But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing in him you will have life. (John 20:30:31 NLT)
John also wrote:

This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:24 ESV)
It is clear that John claimed to have been there when the events in the life of Jesus transpired.

There Is Internal Evidence of an Early Date for John
There is also internal evidence that John himself wrote before A.D. 70. We read the following description of Jerusalem in the fifth chapter of John:

Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool called Bethesda in Aramaic, which has five covered walkways. (John 5:2 NET)
John describes the sheep gate as still standing at the time he wrote. He could not have made this statement after A.D. 70—there was no sheep gate. The sheep gate was destroyed in the year A.D. 70, along with the rest of the city of Jerusalem. This could very well be an indication that John wrote his gospel before the city of Jerusalem was destroyed.

Conclusion: There Is Evidence for an Early Date for the Four Gospels
When all the historical and textual evidence is amassed, it becomes clear that the four gospels were composed at a very early date either by eyewitnesses, or those who recorded eyewitness testimony. Therefore, we have every reason to trust what they wrote.
\\\

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Com.../question10-when-were-the-gospels-written.cfm

Scholars vary on the date of composition for Luke’s Gospel. Many critical scholars date the composition quite late - often between 80 and 100 AD. However, indicators within the Luke-Acts volume suggest that it was written before 70 AD, since the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple is not mentioned. Additionally, if the volume was written for the defense of Paul, its final composition date would be approximately 61 to 62 AD

.https://the-gospels.com/the-gospel-of-luke/

Part 1 of this work is the Gospel, written and delivered to Theophilus before Acts was written (Acts 1:1). Many conservative scholars date Luke’s Gospel to about A.D. 61–63.

 

[Ross Dolan]

The gospels were written BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem . So how did Luke know about the destruction of Jerusalem.

Maybe Zeus told him.

 

[Ross Dolan]

See post #314

You are being more stupid than usual now. No reason to do that just because I am showing you that you are full of shit on this issue.

 

[Cypress]

The very fact there is NO MENTION of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the gospels points to the fact that Jerusalem and the Temple were still standing when the gospels were written. If the center of the Jewish religion was destroyed it would have been mentioned in the gospels.. It is incomprehensible to think that the writers would forget to mention Jerusalem and the Temple were no longer there.



.https://the-gospels.com/the-gospel-of-luke/

Part 1 of this work is the Gospel, written and delivered to Theophilus before Acts was written (Acts 1:1). Many conservative scholars date Luke’s Gospel to about A.D. 61–63.

"Many" scholars is not most scholars.

Most scholars date Luke to between 75 to 85 AD

Most scholars date the composition of the combined work (Luke- Acts) to around 80–90 AD, although some others suggest 90–110,[22]

- Wikipedia

That is years after the destruction of the Second Temple

 

[ExpressLane]

"Many" scholars is not most scholars.

Most scholars date Luke to between 75 to 85 AD




That is years after the destruction of the Second Temple

You have not proven that "most" scholars believe the gospels were written after 70 AD. I gave you 3 that don't and there are many, many more. You haven't explained why there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem or of the Temple no mention of the slaughter or enslavement of over a million Jews. No mention of the Christian church fleeing to Pella. Your assertion that the gospels were written after 70 AD is preposterous. Just because you have a quote from a crowd sourced Wikipedia certainly does not make it fact.

 

[Ross Dolan]

You have not proven that "most" scholars believe the gospels were written after 70 AD. I gave you 3 that don't and there are many, many more. You haven't explained why there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem or of the Temple no mention of the slaughter or enslavement of over a million Jews. No mention of the Christian church fleeing to Pella. Your assertion that the gospels were written after 70 AD is preposterous.

The estimate of the number of Jews who lived during the time of Jesus is between 80,000 and 100,000...NOWHERE NEAR A MILLION...OR EVEN A HALF MILLION.

Your bullshit about the slaughter or enslavement of over a million Jews at that time is an absurdity.

 

[ExpressLane]

The estimate of the number of Jews who lived [In Jerusalem???] during the time of Jesus is between 80,000 and 100,000...NOWHERE NEAR A MILLION...OR EVEN A HALF MILLION.

Your bullshit about the slaughter or enslavement of over a million Jews at that time is an absurdity.

Language, Language Frank, this is the Religion section try to be respectful at least. Save that kind of language for politics.

The number is from Josephus the most reliable source we have. It was the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Jerusalem was busting at the seams with Jews that had traveled to Jerusalem to celebrate the holiday. Plus as Titus brutally approached Roman it created a flood of refuges that fled to fortified Jerusalem for protection.

(420) Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be ninety-seven thousand, as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege eleven hundred thousand, (421) the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a traitness among them that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish–Roman_War

With the departure of Vespasian, who had opposed an open siege upon Jerusalem, fearing to lose many troops against the fortified city, Titus advanced his legions upon the capital of the rebellious province. Conquering town after town, Titus quickly advanced through the hill country, while the brutal suppression created an immense wave of Judean refugees, seeking shelter in fortified Jerusalem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish–Roman_War

 

[Cypress]

You have not proven that "most" scholars believe the gospels were written after 70 AD. I gave you 3 that don't and there are many, many more. You haven't explained why there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem or of the Temple no mention of the slaughter or enslavement of over a million Jews. No mention of the Christian church fleeing to Pella. Your assertion that the gospels were written after 70 AD is preposterous. Just because you have a quote from a crowd sourced Wikipedia certainly does not make it fact.

Not just Wikipedia. I have listened to reputable PhD -level biblical scholars from Bart Ehrman to Luke Timothy Johnson state that the consensus is that the Gospels were written between 70 to 100 AD, late first century.

 

[Phantasmal]

The number is from Josephus the most reliable source we have. It was Passover and Jerusalem was busting at the seams with Jews that had traveled to Jerusalem to celebrate the holiday.

Josephus took a great deal of poetic license as did a lot of “historians” of that time.

 

[Cypress]

The number is from Josephus the most reliable source we have. It was the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Jerusalem was busting at the seams with Jews that had traveled to Jerusalem to celebrate the holiday.

97,000 slaves alone

The Greek historian Herodotus also claimed a million Persians invaded Greece in 379 BCE.

Most modern historians recognize that these ancient historians tended to grossly over estimate and fall victim to hyperbole.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Language, Language Frank, this is the Religion section try to be respectful at least. Save that kind of language for politics.

Fuck you. Religion is a greater danger to humanity than politics ever will be.

In any case, the number of Jews alive at that time was around 100,000...so the numbers you mentioned are absurd.

Live with that.

The number is from Josephus the most reliable source we have. It was the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Jerusalem was busting at the seams with Jews that had traveled to Jerusalem to celebrate the holiday. Plus as Titus brutally approached Roman it created a flood of refuges that fled to fortified Jerusalem for protection.

If you want to think there were millions of Jews back then...be my guest. It is absurd to suppose there were that many, but...knock yourself out.

 

[ZenMode]

See Isaiah 53:5, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Peter 2:24, Romans 5:8, and Ephesians 2:4-5.

Should we really trust books written by Peter, given that the Bible says in Acts 4:13 Peter is uneducated/"unlettered" (ancient term for illiterate)?

In the Roman Empire, at the time of Jesus, research has shown that the ability to read and write was extremely rare - only about 10% of the population and not poor, peasant day laborers like the Jesus disciples. It was the wealthy who were able to get educated.

 

[ExpressLane]

Fuck you. Religion is a greater danger to humanity than politics ever will be.

In any case, the number of Jews alive at that time was around 100,000...so the numbers you mentioned are absurd.

Live with that.



If you want to think there were millions of Jews back then...be my guest. It is absurd to suppose there were that many, but...knock yourself out.

Sad that you continue to use profanity. It is probably because you know you are wrong again. While there is debate on how many Jews were alive during the first certainly more than 100K

By the early 13th century, the world Jewish population had fallen to 2 million from a peak at 8 million during the 1st century, and possibly half this number, with only 250,000 of the 2 million living in Christian lands. Many factors had devastated the Jewish population, including the Bar Kokhba revolt and the First Crusade.[citation needed] The 13th-century author Bar Hebraeus gave a figure of 6,944,000 Jews in the Roman world. Salo Wittmayer Baron considered the figure convincing.[4] The figure of seven million within and one million outside the Roman world in the mid-first century became widely accepted, including by Louis Feldman. : 97–103 

 

[ExpressLane]

Should we really trust books written by Peter, given that the Bible says in Acts 4:13 Peter is uneducated/"unlettered" (ancient term for illiterate)?

In the Roman Empire, at the time of Jesus, research has shown that the ability to read and write was extremely rare - only about 10% of the population and not poor, peasant day laborers like the Jesus disciples. It was the wealthy who were able to get educated.

That is the reason God gave the Jews the feast day system to explain his plan of salvation. Having a person that could read transcribe your words was pretty common in those days. I believe Paul did that when his eyesight started failing him.

10% isn't "extremely rare 10% of the world's population is left handed and I see left handed people on TV all the time and my own brother is left handed.

According to his statement, Paul would close each of his letters with his own signature. This was his unique way of verifying the authenticity of his letters.

Paul’s reason for employing someone to write for him was possibly a result of a physical limitation. There is evidence that Paul had some problem with his eyes. He wrote the following to the churches of Galatia:

NIV Gal 6:11 See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!

 

[ExpressLane]

The Greek historian Herodotus also claimed a million Persians invaded Greece in 379 BCE.

Most modern historians recognize that these ancient historians tended to grossly over estimate and fall victim to hyperbole.

Josephus gave a very specific number of 97K enslaved, Most historians accept that number. Considering the fact that the siege kill many from starvation and epidemic and they killed all that were sick or old it is reasonable to think that only one in ten survived the siege to become a slave.

Tacitus  (AD 56 – c. 120) that Jerusalem at its fall contained 600,000 persons; Josephus, that there were as many as 1,100,000 slain in the destruction of Jerusalem in CE 70, along with 97,000 who were sold as slaves. However, Josephus also qualifies this count, noting that Jerusalem was besieged during the Passover. The majority of the 1,197,000 would not have been residents of the city, but rather were visiting for the festival.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histo... million,accepted, including by Louis Feldman.