The Christian left and democratic socialism

[Cypress]

Social democrats believed that capitalism could be reformed and made to work for the benefit of all members of society and that such improvements could be achieved through democratic elections and reform.

Many prominent leaders of the early social democracy movement in Germany were members of the Catholic Church’s Social Union movement, which emphasized the dignity of workers and their families. It supported the interests of workers being collectively represented by organized trade unions. The German social Catholics would also support a social welfare state that included government-funded health care for all families as well as support for labor unions that included all workers.

In the same way, progressive members of the Anglican Church in Great Britain were among the early reformers of industrial capitalism, and they shared many aims with the German social democrats.

The ethical or moral basis for the rise of social democracy comes from Judeo-Christian theology concerning charity and the welfare of fellow humans. In this view, the suffering of humans, whatever its cause, requires us to try to alleviate that suffering. To some religious thinkers, permitting the continuation of suffering among one’s fellow human souls could be considered immoral and sinful.



Source credit: Edward Stuart, PhD, Professor of Economics, Northeastern Illinois University

 

[Bill]

Social democrats believed that capitalism could be reformed and made to work for the benefit of all members of society and that such improvements could be achieved through democratic elections and reform.

Many prominent leaders of the early social democracy movement in Germany were members of the Catholic Church’s Social Union movement, which emphasized the dignity of workers and their families. It supported the interests of workers being collectively represented by organized trade unions. The German social Catholics would also support a social welfare state that included government-funded health care for all families as well as support for labor unions that included all workers.

In the same way, progressive members of the Anglican Church in Great Britain were among the early reformers of industrial capitalism, and they shared many aims with the German social democrats.

The ethical or moral basis for the rise of social democracy comes from Judeo-Christian theology concerning charity and the welfare of fellow humans. In this view, the suffering of humans, whatever its cause, requires us to try to alleviate that suffering. To some religious thinkers, permitting the continuation of suffering among one’s fellow human souls could be considered immoral and sinful.



Source credit: Edward Stuart, PhD, Professor of Economics, Northeastern Illinois University

Oddly one needs to look far & wide to see that.....

Sadly I think many would deny that..

Some place in their bible it says survival of the fittest, I got mine, you get yours, I am not my brothers keeper, & that O' stand by, God helps those that help themselves, & Lord knows they be helpin themselves....

 

[Lightbringer]

Here it is again...Democratic Socialism.

None of you assholes talking about Democratic Socialism know what it is.

 

[Cypress]

Oddly one needs to look far & wide to see that..... View attachment 17382

Sadly I think many would deny that..

Some place in their bible it says survival of the fittest, I got mine, you get yours, I am not my brothers keeper, & that O' stand by, God helps those that help themselves, & Lord knows they be helpin themselves....

There is a significant strain of Anglo-American Protestantism that has put an emphasis on earthly rewards, individualism, and the prosperity gospel. There is probably a reason capitalism was associated with Protestantism.

I believe the Roman Catholic church and also some strains of evangelicalism, particularly traditional black evangelical congregations, has always put more an emphasis on the social gospel and communalism.

The bottom line is that the modern social welfare state owes a lot of it's debt to the Christian left.

 

[Lightbringer]

Social democrats believed that capitalism could be reformed and made to work for the benefit of all members of society and that such improvements could be achieved through democratic elections and reform.

Many prominent leaders of the early social democracy movement in Germany were members of the Catholic Church’s Social Union movement, which emphasized the dignity of workers and their families. It supported the interests of workers being collectively represented by organized trade unions. The German social Catholics would also support a social welfare state that included government-funded health care for all families as well as support for labor unions that included all workers.

In the same way, progressive members of the Anglican Church in Great Britain were among the early reformers of industrial capitalism, and they shared many aims with the German social democrats.

The ethical or moral basis for the rise of social democracy comes from Judeo-Christian theology concerning charity and the welfare of fellow humans. In this view, the suffering of humans, whatever its cause, requires us to try to alleviate that suffering. To some religious thinkers, permitting the continuation of suffering among one’s fellow human souls could be considered immoral and sinful.



Source credit: Edward Stuart, PhD, Professor of Economics, Northeastern Illinois University

The only thing you've just done is give people a reason to hate the church. Are you fucking retarded?

 

[Bill]

There is a significant strain of Anglo-American Protestantism that has put an emphasis on earthly rewards, individualism, and the prosperity gospel. There is probably a reason capitalism was associated with Protestantism.

I believe the Roman Catholic church and also some strains of evangelicalism, particularly traditional black evangelical congregations, has always put more an emphasis on the social gospel and communalism.

The bottom line is that the modern social welfare state owes a lot of it's debt to the Christian left.

I don't think much of modern "Evangelicalism" is much about evangelism, or really the gospel, unless you think trump is good news- NOT THE CHRIST

I totally agree about the Christian left, doing the grunt work, the Lord's work, not drinking on yachts, sucking down expensive whisky & watching your wife & the pool boy...

 

[Cypress]

The only thing you've just done is give people a reason to hate the church. Are you fucking retarded?

Conservatives were always going to hate universal health care, labor unions, prohibitions on child labor, irrespective of what the Christian left did.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Here it is again...Democratic Socialism.

None of you assholes talking about Democratic Socialism know what it is.

I do, kid, having been involved with it all my life. It starts off as an attempt to create a Christian society, a democratic world where the majority see to it that the poor can live comfortably. You pigs would detest it, especially your pretend Christians.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Social democrats believed that capitalism could be reformed and made to work for the benefit of all members of society and that such improvements could be achieved through democratic elections and reform.

Many prominent leaders of the early social democracy movement in Germany were members of the Catholic Church’s Social Union movement, which emphasized the dignity of workers and their families. It supported the interests of workers being collectively represented by organized trade unions. The German social Catholics would also support a social welfare state that included government-funded health care for all families as well as support for labor unions that included all workers.

In the same way, progressive members of the Anglican Church in Great Britain were among the early reformers of industrial capitalism, and they shared many aims with the German social democrats.

The ethical or moral basis for the rise of social democracy comes from Judeo-Christian theology concerning charity and the welfare of fellow humans. In this view, the suffering of humans, whatever its cause, requires us to try to alleviate that suffering. To some religious thinkers, permitting the continuation of suffering among one’s fellow human souls could be considered immoral and sinful.

Source credit: Edward Stuart, PhD, Professor of Economics, Northeastern Illinois University

So what happened between then and now in America? U.S. Christians -- at least the fundie and evangelical types -- are quite the opposite. Were they suckered by that "prosperity gospel" heresy? When did they stop believing that mankind's troubles are the work of the devil, but instead are the fault of liberals?

 

[Cypress]

So what happened between then and now in America? U.S. Christians -- at least the fundie and evangelical types -- are quite the opposite. Were they suckered by that "prosperity gospel" heresy? When did they stop believing that mankind's troubles are the work of the devil, but instead are the fault of liberals?

It is above my pay grade to have an unequivocal and definitive explanation.

At the margins, the Protestantism's "work ethic", it's elevation of earthly rewards as a goal of life, and its association with capitalism goes back centuries. Long before the American Revolution.

In the USA conservative Protestantism was enlisted in political wars in a way that other Christian denominations were not. Conservative Protestantism was enlisted to defend slavery, protect lassaize-faire capitalism, and to help fight the Cold War. As such, I believe conservative American Protestantism has been conditioned to be overtly involved in politics in a more direct and belligerent way than the RCC or other strains of Christianity. Just my two cents.

But we have to ask: are Joel Olsteen, Jerry Falwell Jr., and various sundry JPP bible thumpers actually genuine and authentic Christians?

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Christians, I think, read the New Testament carefully, see what Jesus recommends and what the early Church did, and try to act like that in a way appropriate to a changed world. Wherever the 'religion' is officially accepted, however, it will always be used by the powers that be, to justify, say, Roman imperialism (that crucified Jesus), absolute monarchy (which normally burned anyone Christian) and exploiting your neghbours in America (which contradicts everything Jesus ever said). That's life in power-systems, I fear.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

It is above my pay grade to have an unequivocal and definitive explanation.

At the margins, the Protestantism's "work ethic", it's elevation of earthly rewards as a goal of life, and its association with capitalism goes back centuries. Long before the American Revolution.

In the USA conservative Protestantism was enlisted in political wars in a way that other Christian denominations were not. Conservative Protestantism was enlisted to defend slavery, protect lassaize-faire capitalism, and to help fight the Cold War. As such, I believe conservative American Protestantism has been conditioned to be overtly involved in politics in a more direct and belligerent way than the RCC or other strains of Christianity. Just my two cents.

But we have to ask: are Joel Olsteen, Jerry Falwell Jr., and various sundry JPP bible thumpers actually genuine and authentic Christians?

If their god turns out to be real, they are going to be in for a very big surprise about that.

My POV on the role of government and capitalism in the Kingdom of Jesus that I grew up with is this: Jesus specifically instructed His followers to follow both His examples and His words. Christians are to practice charity, forgiveness, kindness, forego hatred, and to love their neighbors as they love their own families and selves. This includes using all means given to us by the life where we find ourselves. That includes using capitalism to raise up others, and using government as the means to help ensure that our neighbors are not going hungry, or without health care, or clothing, or other necessities of life. Obviously one Christian alone, or even her church members, cannot do this alone -- so by the instructions given, they should be encouraging local, state, and even national govt. to help.

Unfortunately since they were co-opted by greedy, power-hungry politicians, they no longer follow these teachings of Christ. Bill was right -- even down to the local level far too many of them are "I got mine, fuck you, go get your own." Yes, they dutifully pay their tithes every week, and wash their hands of the poor, the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the imprisoned. Their job is done at that point. They have been brainwashed to believe that poor ppl are not white, maybe not even Christian, not worthy of being American citizens. They have forgotten all the parables Jesus told involving ppl "on the outs" with His contemporary society -- Samaritans, taxpayers, whores -- because He taught that we are all children of God, not just the ones who look like us.

Now we come to the place in this discourse where RB and the other RW "Christians" will shriek that I hate all Christians. They are wrong. I only pity and despise the faux ones who worship mammon, not Lord Jesus. I despise the ones who try to roadblock the rest of us who want to lift up our neighbors -- even when it means we give up some of our own wealth -- so that we all enjoy a more pleasant Earthly life.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Christians, I think, read the New Testament carefully, see what Jesus recommends and what the early Church did, and try to act like that in a way appropriate to a changed world. Wherever the 'religion' is officially accepted, however, it will always be used by the powers that be, to justify, say, Roman imperialism (that crucified Jesus), absolute monarchy (which normally burned anyone Christian) and exploiting your neghbours in America (which contradicts everything Jesus ever said). That's life in power-systems, I fear.

Very true. But as voters and constituents, we also have the power to reject those who would use us for their own ends, and insist that government serve us -- ALL of us -- and not the other way around.

 

[Cypress]

If their god turns out to be real, they are going to be in for a very big surprise about that.

My POV on the role of government and capitalism in the Kingdom of Jesus that I grew up with is this: Jesus specifically instructed His followers to follow both His examples and His words. Christians are to practice charity, forgiveness, kindness, forego hatred, and to love their neighbors as they love their own families and selves. This includes using all means given to us by the life where we find ourselves. That includes using capitalism to raise up others, and using government as the means to help ensure that our neighbors are not going hungry, or without health care, or clothing, or other necessities of life. Obviously one Christian alone, or even her church members, cannot do this alone -- so by the instructions given, they should be encouraging local, state, and even national govt. to help.

Unfortunately since they were co-opted by greedy, power-hungry politicians, they no longer follow these teachings of Christ. Bill was right -- even down to the local level far too many of them are "I got mine, fuck you, go get your own." Yes, they dutifully pay their tithes every week, and wash their hands of the poor, the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the imprisoned. Their job is done at that point. They have been brainwashed to believe that poor ppl are not white, maybe not even Christian, not worthy of being American citizens. They have forgotten all the parables Jesus told involving ppl "on the outs" with His contemporary society -- Samaritans, taxpayers, whores -- because He taught that we are all children of God, not just the ones who look like us.

Now we come to the place in this discourse where RB and the other RW "Christians" will shriek that I hate all Christians. They are wrong. I only pity and despise the faux ones who worship mammon, not Lord Jesus. I despise the ones who try to roadblock the rest of us who want to lift up our neighbors -- even when it means we give up some of our own wealth -- so that we all enjoy a more pleasant Earthly life.

Nice work.

The preeminent Christian philosopher Soren Kierkegaard maintained that living the authentic Christian life was extremely challenging and difficult. It is not easy in any way. He had no patience for those who simply attended church once a week and claimed to be authentic Christians.

 

[cawacko]

I don't think much of modern "Evangelicalism" is much about evangelism, or really the gospel, unless you think trump is good news- NOT THE CHRIST

I totally agree about the Christian left, doing the grunt work, the Lord's work, not drinking on yachts, sucking down expensive whisky & watching your wife & the pool boy...

It's interesting, my Pastor fits the description here. He's a white hipster millennial social democrat. He's big on calling our church a woke church and he is all in on the anti-racism movement. His social media feed talks more about politics than God. Our church is maybe five years old now and even though it's in SF it's largely younger and white and has a lot of tech workers who have a good amount of money.

So it's interesting because to many of the old timers the young tech workers have ruined the soul of San Francisco, caused real estate prices to rise astronomically and forced many of the artists, LGBT community, non profits and others out of the City. So I'm guessing 90% of my church votes Democratic but these are still folks but they're out there 'changing their world' with their tech companies, not doing the grunt work you speak of.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Nice work.

The preeminent Christian philosopher Soren Kierkegaard maintained that living the authentic Christian life was extremely challenging and difficult. It is not easy in any way. He had no patience for those who simply attended church once a week and claimed to be authentic Christians.

He's right -- it IS a difficult path to walk in a righteous way. One of the beautiful things about Xtianity though is the concept of forgiveness. I think even we non-Xtians can appreciate that. We all make mistakes, but if we honestly strive to make amends and not repeat them, we're doing okay.

I suspect that very few of our outspoken self-proclaimed followers of Jesus here think that they have anything to repent for when they call other ppl names, engage in personal attacks, spread lies and libel, and judge judge judge. It would be hard to find an authentic bone among the lot of them.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

It's interesting, my Pastor fits the description here. He's a white hipster millennial social democrat. He's big on calling our church a woke church and he is all in on the anti-racism movement. His social media feed talks more about politics than God. Our church is maybe five years old now and even though it's in SF it's largely younger and white and has a lot of tech workers who have a good amount of money.

So it's interesting because to many of the old timers the young tech workers have ruined the soul of San Francisco, caused real estate prices to rise astronomically and forced many of the artists, LGBT community, non profits and others out of the City. So I'm guessing 90% of my church votes Democratic but these are still folks but they're out there 'changing their world' with their tech companies, not doing the grunt work you speak of.

I might agree with his politics but not his involvement in them as a minister. I think their tax-exempt status should be yanked once that happens.

 

[Cypress]

He's right -- it IS a difficult path to walk in a righteous way. One of the beautiful things about Xtianity though is the concept of forgiveness. I think even we non-Xtians can appreciate that. We all make mistakes, but if we honestly strive to make amends and not repeat them, we're doing okay.

I suspect that very few of our outspoken self-proclaimed followers of Jesus here think that they have anything to repent for when they call other ppl names, engage in personal attacks, spread lies and libel, and judge judge judge. It would be hard to find an authentic bone among the lot of them.

I see more libel, cursing, vindictiveness, toxic slander from self-professed "Christians" on this forum, than I have ever witnessed in real life

But even worse than that: they have not the slighest indication of remorse or regret for indulging in libel and cursing.

 

[cawacko]

I might agree with his politics but not his involvement in them as a minister. I think their tax-exempt status should be yanked once that happens.

Admittedly I don't follow any other Pastors on social media so I don't know how common it is for them to discuss politics. My Pastor puts out a lot of anti-Trump posts. I'm not a Trump guy so it's not like that offends me per se but partisan politics brings so much polarization I'm not a big fan of my Pastor engaging in it. (He also calls out conservative evangelical churches as well.)

I don't know about pulling tax exempt status of a church because the Pastor posts about politics but I'm not a huge fan of the blatant partisan stuff.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Admittedly I don't follow any other Pastors on social media so I don't know how common it is for them to discuss politics. My Pastor puts out a lot of anti-Trump posts. I'm not a Trump guy so it's not like that offends me per se but partisan politics brings so much polarization I'm not a big fan of my Pastor engaging in it. (He also calls out conservative evangelical churches as well.)

I don't know about pulling tax exempt status of a church because the Pastor posts about politics but I'm not a huge fan of the blatant partisan stuff.

We don't tax churches or pastors because we want to maintain the separation of church and state, a valid reason even if it means less revenue. However, when they start preaching politics from their pulpits -- and I don't care which political side they are talking about -- it's time to remove that special status. You can have one, or you can have the other... but you don't get both. It's one thing, IMO, to remind your parishioners that Jesus wanted us to care for and help the poor, or Jesus wanted us to love one another. It's a whole different thing to tell them that Jesus would have wanted us to vote for ___ or support ___ political group.