The Christian left and democratic socialism

[ThatOwlWoman]

I see more libel, cursing, vindictiveness, toxic slander from self-professed "Christians" on this forum, than I have ever witnessed in real life

But even worse than that: they have not the slighest indication of remorse or regret for indulging in libel and cursing.

Yep. I think they forget that when they proclaim themselves as members of some group, everyone else sees them as representative of that group. So if you're claiming to be a Christian, you're not doing a very good job of representing when you call ppl names, post racist crap, libel other posters or public figures, and engage in hate and rage against others. Examples: insisting that Biden is a pedophile, which I've seen several so-called "Christians" here claim. Denigrating people because of their race or gender or orientation is another.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

Here it is again...Democratic Socialism.

None of you assholes talking about Democratic Socialism know what it is.

I'll be honest- I do not know what it is.

I do believe that governments should have compassion towards poverty and do everything possible to eliminate it. Sometimes, in a national crisis, and especially during national disasters, the government always needs to be in a position to be able to help out. Sometimes, people need a hand up- I did not say a committed lifetime hand out.

Life deals us a lot of unexpected traps. I remember when I first started riding bicycles as a kid, and some of the neighbors would edge their sidewalks, leaving a rut big enough for a bicycle tire to get trapped in. You end up getting in that rut- There was no way you are going to steer out of it until you crashed all the way to the ground. And just like that, life hands us many pitfalls to fall into out there- beyond people's control like layoffs, pandemics, sickness, loss of family members and bread winners, fires, hurricanes, floods, winds, tornadoes, and hurricanes. My God- just look at everything that has happened in just 2020 alone. And this shit has been going on for years really. It just came more into focus now with such brute force.

I also am all for investing in people- in the way of infrastructure improvements, education, competitive and livable wages, essential benefits, healthy air and water, and healthcare.

I do not think that makes me a socialist! Nor is it just about what I personally want in life. THIS IS ABOUT THE WELFARE OF EVERYBODY!

We are the richest nation in the world- we should act like it.

 

[cawacko]

We don't tax churches or pastors because we want to maintain the separation of church and state, a valid reason even if it means less revenue. However, when they start preaching politics from their pulpits -- and I don't care which political side they are talking about -- it's time to remove that special status. You can have one, or you can have the other... but you don't get both. It's one thing, IMO, to remind your parishioners that Jesus wanted us to care for and help the poor, or Jesus wanted us to love one another. It's a whole different thing to tell them that Jesus would have wanted us to vote for ___ or support ___ political group.

My question would be do you discern a difference between a Pastor talking politics during their Sunday sermon vs. speaking politics on their social media feed when it comes to removing special status?

 

[Guno צְבִי]

There is a significant strain of Anglo-American Protestantism that has put an emphasis on earthly rewards, individualism, and the prosperity gospel. There is probably a reason capitalism was associated with Protestantism.

I believe the Roman Catholic church and also some strains of evangelicalism, particularly traditional black evangelical congregations, has always put more an emphasis on the social gospel and communalism.

The bottom line is that the modern social welfare state owes a lot of it's debt to the Christian left.

Judaism is very strong on Tikkun Olam which has come to connote social action and the pursuit of social justice. The phrase has origins in classical rabbinic literature and in Lurianic kabbalah, a major strand of Jewish mysticism originating with the work of the 16th-century kabbalist Isaac Luria.

The term “mipnei tikkun ha-olam” (perhaps best translated in this context as “in the interest of public policy”) is used in the Mishnah (the body of classical rabbinic teachings codified circa 200 C.E.). There, it refers to social policy legislation providing extra protection to those potentially at a disadvantage

 

[Cypress]

Judaism is very strong on Tikkun Olam which has come to connote social action and the pursuit of social justice. The phrase has origins in classical rabbinic literature and in Lurianic kabbalah, a major strand of Jewish mysticism originating with the work of the 16th-century kabbalist Isaac Luria.

The term “mipnei tikkun ha-olam” (perhaps best translated in this context as “in the interest of public policy”) is used in the Mishnah (the body of classical rabbinic teachings codified circa 200 C.E.). There, it refers to social policy legislation providing extra protection to those potentially at a disadvantage

Good stuff.
All the western monotheistic traditions - Judaism, Christianity, Islam - elevated benevolence and charity for the poor to be core theological tenets of their respective faiths.

Whatever we think of the monotheistic religious traditions, that was a vast improvement over the prevailing Greco-Roman and Arabian pagan traditions.

 

[Charoite]

It's interesting, my Pastor fits the description here. He's a white hipster millennial social democrat. He's big on calling our church a woke church and he is all in on the anti-racism movement. His social media feed talks more about politics than God. Our church is maybe five years old now and even though it's in SF it's largely younger and white and has a lot of tech workers who have a good amount of money.

So it's interesting because to many of the old timers the young tech workers have ruined the soul of San Francisco, caused real estate prices to rise astronomically and forced many of the artists, LGBT community, non profits and others out of the City. So I'm guessing 90% of my church votes Democratic but these are still folks but they're out there 'changing their world' with their tech companies, not doing the grunt work you speak of.

What's it's denomination of Christianity. Sounds more like the independent churches of Christ that don't follow an organized doctrine like Catholicism or Evangelism.

 

[cawacko]

What's it's denomination of Christianity. Sounds more like the independent churches of Christ that don't follow an organized doctrine like Catholicism or Evangelism.

I should probably know more than I do but I believe it's an independent non denominational church (at one time I may have known where the founding couple got their capital but I can't remember). It started off in a movie theater and now moved to a bigger location but services are not held in a church.

 

[Charoite]

I should probably know more than I do but I believe it's an independent non denominational church (at one time I may have known where the founding couple got their capital but I can't remember). It started off in a movie theater and now moved to a bigger location but services are not held in a church.

When we were moving before COVID, I made note of a non-denominational church down where we were moving. They break away from tradition and sound like they crawled into my mind and fixed the one thing I and many younger generations don't go for. They play Christian hard rock rather than have the usual organ sing-alongs.

 

[cawacko]

When we were moving before COVID, I made note of a non-denominational church down where we were moving. They break away from tradition and sound like they crawled into my mind and fixed the one thing I and many younger generations don't go for. They play Christian hard rock rather than have the usual organ sing-alongs.

At age 48 I’m definitely one of the oldest attending my church. Besides the fact our church hasn’t been around that long we get young people and then many end up moving out of the City and replaced by other young people.

 

[Cypress]

Intellectual origins of welfare state capitalism

Perhaps the most important transformation of capitalism in the mid-20th century was the development of welfare-state capitalism.

The welfare state had several intellectual sources: socialism, Christianity, and the new liberalism.

A. From socialism came the ideals of equality and solidarity, which. socialists had long identified with nationalization.
B. But by the 1920s and 1930s, a developing strain of socialist. thinking sought to manage capitalism and protect people from its. negative effects.
C. They sought to make subsistence independent of the marketplace. and guarantee a minimum of support to all.
D. They also sought to maintain high levels of employment, which. increased the power of the working class.

The term “social justice” came into broad usage through the influence of Catholic thinkers and activists.

A. The modern Catholic tradition was articulated in Pope Leo XIII’s. 1891 encyclical “On the Condition of Workers” and in Pope Pius. XI’s 1931 “On the Reconstruction of the Social Order.”
B. A key element of that 1931 encyclical was the nexus between the. market and the family, and this was the doctrine known as the. “family wage.”
C. The encyclicals were antisocialist, but they were also hostile to. free competition.
D. The notion of a right price at which goods are sold implied an. antidynamic view of economic life, and a shared vision of what. was appropriate to each group in society.
E. A related movement within Protestantism, known in the United States as the “social gospel,” also fed into the New Deal.

Source credit: Professor Jerry Muller, The Catholic University of America.

 

[Cypress]

When we were moving before COVID, I made note of a non-denominational church down where we were moving. They break away from tradition and sound like they crawled into my mind and fixed the one thing I and many younger generations don't go for. They play Christian hard rock rather than have the usual organ sing-alongs.

Organ has to be one of the worst instruments ever made. Organ is never used in churches I attend. I think I might have heard it used when I was dragged to a Methodist service.

 

[IBDaMann]

Social democrats believed that capitalism could be reformed

Social Democrats are completely inept when it comes to economics. Completely. They should be promptly ignored whenever they begin to offer an opinion on the matter.

... but let's humor you for the moment though. Give me a tangible example of how you would reform "capitalism" such that it remains economically sound, works for everyone and isn't simply a petty punishment levied on the successful by an oppressive tyrannical government. Show me how it isn't just a euphamism for "redistribution of wealth" that punishes the succesful for the crime of being successful and clearly does not work for all members of society.

 

[IBDaMann]

The ethical or moral basis for the rise of social democracy comes from Judeo-Christian theology concerning charity and the welfare of fellow humans.

Absurd. Charity is inherently a voluntary action, and is not present in the oppression of a tyrannical government.

In this view, the suffering of humans, whatever its cause, requires us to try to alleviate that suffering.

Nope. In your view, the happiness of humans, whatever its cause, must be crushed. In your view, the acquisition of wealth is justification enough for its confiscation.

Your view sucks. Social Democrats are a cancer to society.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

My question would be do you discern a difference between a Pastor talking politics during their Sunday sermon vs. speaking politics on their social media feed when it comes to removing special status?

I can't answer that without knowing what he uses his social media feed for. Is it to network with his parishioners, share similar political views, and find new members? Is it just his personal opinions that he keeps out of the pulpit? Is he using his position as a recognized (tax-exempt) religious leader to promote political candidates and issues on social media?

If it's just his personal page for family/friends I'd say that's fine, just his views. But if he's using his status as a pastor for political purposes, then tax him good.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Judaism is very strong on Tikkun Olam which has come to connote social action and the pursuit of social justice. The phrase has origins in classical rabbinic literature and in Lurianic kabbalah, a major strand of Jewish mysticism originating with the work of the 16th-century kabbalist Isaac Luria.

The term “mipnei tikkun ha-olam” (perhaps best translated in this context as “in the interest of public policy”) is used in the Mishnah (the body of classical rabbinic teachings codified circa 200 C.E.). There, it refers to social policy legislation providing extra protection to those potentially at a disadvantage

Thank you. Many of the Jews I've known and know follow this mindset. I had no idea that it had a name and set of precepts.

I've never known an American conservative (politically) Jew. What is your explanation for why those guys believe as they do? Does it have any basis in your teachings?

 

[Guno צְבִי]

Thank you. Many of the Jews I've known and know follow this mindset. I had no idea that it had a name and set of precepts.

I've never known an American conservative (politically) Jew. What is your explanation for why those guys believe as they do? Does it have any basis in your teachings?

no basis ignorance and self hating

they are A Shanda fur die Goyim

Trump’s Jews Are A Shonda For Di Goyim

https://forward.com/opinion/398811/trumps-jews-are-a-shonda-for-di-goyim/

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

no basis ignorance and self hating

Unfortunately that is how I've had to come to view most modern American conservatives. They are greedy, selfish, lacking in empathy, not generally bright, incapable of nuanced thinking, unable to look ahead into a future that includes anyone other than their kind. Most of all they are bigoted, terrified, mean little children.

 

[Guno צְבִי]

Unfortunately that is how I've had to come to view most modern American conservatives. They are greedy, selfish, lacking in empathy, not generally bright, incapable of nuanced thinking, unable to look ahead into a future that includes anyone other than their kind. Most of all they are bigoted, terrified, mean little children.

Trump’s Jews Are A Shonda For Di Goyim

https://forward.com/opinion/398811/t...-for-di-goyim/

 

[Cypress]

Social Democrats are completely inept when it comes to economics. Completely. They should be promptly ignored whenever they begin to offer an opinion on the matter.

... but let's humor you for the moment though. Give me a tangible example of how you would reform "capitalism" such that it remains economically sound, works for everyone and isn't simply a petty punishment levied on the successful by an oppressive tyrannical government. Show me how it isn't just a euphamism for "redistribution of wealth" that punishes the succesful for the crime of being successful and clearly does not work for all members of society.

Germany, Sweden, Norway, France, Denmark, et al. are unequivocally among the most successful socioeconomic systems in human history.

 

[IBDaMann]

Germany, Sweden, Norway, France, Denmark, et al. are unequivocally among the most successful socioeconomic systems in human history.

The United States is unequivocally the top economic power on the planet.

You have not listed one single tangible way you would "modify capitalism" and result in an economic success that works for all members of society. Very telling. You know that you are spewing bullshit.