The Great Depression vs. Today; And "Share the Wealth" program.

Steelplate said:
But Mott...even if you make that investment in education....how many high skill jobs are out there? It would seem to me that if everyone had say...an Associate's degree...then burger flippers would have to have a two year degree to qualify for that job, and entry level " real jobs" would require a bachelor's, and to get ahead, you'd need a Master's.

The further you raise the bar educationally, then the conglomerate just raises theirs that much higher. That's not even getting into the academic capacity of the average person. Face it....some.people just can't get beyond high school.
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You're focus is to narron. Education is not just about a liberal arts degree. We need to do better, as I said, at all level of education. Not just post secondary. We need better education at primary and secondary levels, more trade school and technical school alternatives and students who are prepared to enter college and enter the science and technology professions. The education has to be serious and meaningful. You teach people marketable and meaningful skills and they will create the jobs of the future. Hell I'm an example of that, my field (Environmental) didn't even exist 40 years ago.

So were not talking about building more schools to create more drones with pieces of paper. We're talking real education.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
I don't agree with you in full. I think technology has a greater impact than outsourcing has. A handfull of plants can produce the quantity of steel that took hundreds of plants 60 years ago. Same with aluminum and most other primary materials. Automation has contracted the labor force needed in assembly and machining operations to a fraction of what was needed 60 years ago. We keep hearing about the decline of Americna industry but the facts don't bear that out. Our current industrial output is double what it was in 1970. Same applies with agriculture. in 1950 I tihnk around 50% of the nation was involved directly or indirectly in agriculture. Now I believe it's around 10% and outsourcing there has not been an issue and we produce more food than we ever have. Technology has simply made American farm and industrial workers substantially more productive and thus requiring less of them.

So we've lost around 7 million industrial jobs since the 1970's and they're probably not coming back. That means lots of displace people from the job force. Most of that displacement has come from technology and not outsourcing.

So what is the key to better employment and higher wages and standards of living for working Americans? Well it sure as hell isn't protectionism. That would be counter productive at best and catastrophic at worst. The real key is education. We need to invest far more into our national public education at all levels to remain competitive and to retain a middle class standard of living for working people and to provide the aspiration and means to climb economically and socially.

So education is the critical pathway for our future. The problem is, we have large parts of our nation that do not value nor do they invest in public education to the degree that is required for our nation to continue to move forward and stay ahead of the rest of the world. That is where reform needs to be focused.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703652104576122353274221570.html.html
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Technology increases production and meanwhile drops some physical workers. But it adds Technology workers. Inventing, selling and maintenance. But let's be real, we aren't inventing because of our education.

The jobs started falling after NAFTA. I googled a link and I love the terminology they use. "You can almost hear the giant sucking sound"
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...ons-more-american-jobs-to-be-shipped-overseas

The proof is in the very credible graph they have on the link.
 
On education, after watching "Waiting For Superman" that the problem with education is the conflict of state and federal fighting to get control over schools. The 10A gives the states the right to have government run schools by the states so I lean towards state control, not federal. I also believe in Unions, but I'm not ignorant enough to believe Unions can't have flaws like Tenure. Nothing in the world is flawless and to end everything because it's flawed is ignorance.

BUT THE #1 THING WRONG WITH EDUCATION IS THE PARENTS. Parents expect the school to do everything. Parent's today do minimal work with their children to ensure they get the education our schools are teaching them. "Did you do your homework........(yea)" and that's enough for them. Parents need to sit down with their kids and learn with them. Use big words and explain what they mean, STOP dumbing things down as if a child doesn't understand and won't. Kids absorb information WAY better than adults and we need to get use to that.
 
As long as we hold standards higher than other unsuccessful Countries, we will always be able to get labor cheaper from unsuccessful Countries. What kills me is the bone heads that fight for us to drop our standards to the level of these Countries. The only real way to compete with other Countries is to make a law that requires us to have the same standards for other Countries as we do our own. This will lower standards than they are today, but won't get stupid.

So many people are fighting for this lifestyle screaming "FREEEEEDOOOOOM! ";

 
Steelplate said:
But Mott...even if you make that investment in education....how many high skill jobs are out there? It would seem to me that if everyone had say...an Associate's degree...then burger flippers would have to have a two year degree to qualify for that job, and entry level " real jobs" would require a bachelor's, and to get ahead, you'd need a Master's.

The further you raise the bar educationally, then the conglomerate just raises theirs that much higher. That's not even getting into the academic capacity of the average person. Face it....some.people just can't get beyond high school.
Click to expand...

I agree it's not just about college. I heard a few years ago that we're facing a shortage of people to work on power lines. This is something that can't be outsourced; basic skills needed are a head for heights and a good aptitude for math. There are programs set up by power companies to train people in this field. Good paying jobs; depending on OT, can earn 50K, 80K, 100K.

Tried to talk my step-daughters and nephew into this field, got no traction with them...sigh.

Education is key. How do we convince kids they need it and how do we provide it?
 
tekkychick said:
I agree it's not just about college. I heard a few years ago that we're facing a shortage of people to work on power lines. This is something that can't be outsourced; basic skills needed are a head for heights and a good aptitude for math. There are programs set up by power companies to train people in this field. Good paying jobs; depending on OT, can earn 50K, 80K, 100K.

Tried to talk my step-daughters and nephew into this field, got no traction with them...sigh.

Education is key. How do we convince kids they need it and how do we provide it?
Click to expand...

I think I read that it is the same with welders ... don't have enough of them either it seems. I just wonder why?
 
There is job awareness. And there are tons of people trying to get jobs in welding and more so in line workers. If they can't hire workers it's because they are raising their standards too high on experience and schooling required to get the job. Raising standards might get you a smarter worker but it won't get you a harder worker, and you can teach a hard worker to work smart.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
You're focus is to narron. Education is not just about a liberal arts degree. We need to do better, as I said, at all level of education. Not just post secondary. We need better education at primary and secondary levels, more trade school and technical school alternatives and students who are prepared to enter college and enter the science and technology professions. The education has to be serious and meaningful. You teach people marketable and meaningful skills and they will create the jobs of the future. Hell I'm an example of that, my field (Environmental) didn't even exist 40 years ago.

So were not talking about building more schools to create more drones with pieces of paper. We're talking real education.
Click to expand...

Thank you for mentioning trade and tech schools. This is the key. Someone mentioned welding...I used to weld. My father died of welding related emphysema...that was always in the back of my mind when I was picking black boogers out of my nose. That bothered me....I was glad to leave that field. But....it's a good paying job that anyone with a year of training can do.
 
Anti-Party said:
On education, after watching "Waiting For Superman" that the problem with education is the conflict of state and federal fighting to get control over schools. The 10A gives the states the right to have government run schools by the states so I lean towards state control, not federal. I also believe in Unions, but I'm not ignorant enough to believe Unions can't have flaws like Tenure. Nothing in the world is flawless and to end everything because it's flawed is ignorance.

BUT THE #1 THING WRONG WITH EDUCATION IS THE PARENTS. Parents expect the school to do everything. Parent's today do minimal work with their children to ensure they get the education our schools are teaching them. "Did you do your homework........(yea)" and that's enough for them. Parents need to sit down with their kids and learn with them. Use big words and explain what they mean, STOP dumbing things down as if a child doesn't understand and won't. Kids absorb information WAY better than adults and we need to get use to that.
Click to expand...

The problem with parenting is that people are working their asses off to make ends meet. They have little time or energy left to fight with junior about doing his homework. Television has become our babysitters and surrogate parents.
 
Anti-Party said:
Technology increases production and meanwhile drops some physical workers. But it adds Technology workers. Inventing, selling and maintenance. But let's be real, we aren't inventing because of our education.

The jobs started falling after NAFTA. I googled a link and I love the terminology they use. "You can almost hear the giant sucking sound"
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...ons-more-american-jobs-to-be-shipped-overseas

The proof is in the very credible graph they have on the link.
Click to expand...
LOL You are giving away your age there. That was famous Ross Perot quote about NAFTA. There is no doubt that out sourcing has impacted jobs but not to the degree technology has. Technology is what will replace those jobs but to do t hat we need to invest in education.
 
leaningright said:
I think I read that it is the same with welders ... don't have enough of them either it seems. I just wonder why?
Click to expand...

Yup, short about 800,000. And machinists, by aboutn the same number. Trades overall are drying up in terms of avilable labor. Why? Well because it takes quite a while of long, boring work to get good. I've been welding for around 5 years now, and other than my TIG, I'm average at best. Trades take time to get good at, and many in my generation don't have the patience. Same reason my generation are shitty musicians.
 
Steelplate said:
The problem with parenting is that people are working their asses off to make ends meet. They have little time or energy left to fight with junior about doing his homework. Television has become our babysitters and surrogate parents.
Click to expand...

Absolutely correct.

So let's get rid of PBS! The network made to educate the TV babies lol. Which cost the exact same amount in 1 year as Afghanistan war does in 1 day :P
 
Mott the Hoople said:
LOL You are giving away your age there. That was famous Ross Perot quote about NAFTA. There is no doubt that out sourcing has impacted jobs but not to the degree technology has. Technology is what will replace those jobs but to do t hat we need to invest in education.
Click to expand...

I'm middle thirties. My age is no secret. And agree to disagree. I can provide proof that outsourcing is causing job loss and national debt rise due to unemployment and welfare with significant charts. If you lived where I live, a Right Wing state, you can see factories drop like flies for outsourcing. The workers flood other low skill jobs, but there isn't enough. They get some sort of government compensation. Seen it with my eyes personally and with credible charts/graphs.
 
leaningright said:
I think I read that it is the same with welders ... don't have enough of them either it seems. I just wonder why?
Click to expand...
because the job sucks. You get to inhale toxic fumes, ruin your eyes, get splatter burn on your skin and work in all sorts of rough and dangerous conditions and die young. yes it takes great skill to be a fabricator/welder and if your good it pays well but the down side of the job are considerable. It's a similar deal with driving truck. Lots of job, pays well but the job sucks. Living life on the road, taking t he occasional shower, the crappy food. Beats being unemployed but not job most people want.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
because the job sucks. You get to inhale toxic fumes, ruin your eyes, get splatter burn on your skin and work in all sorts of rough and dangerous conditions and die young. yes it takes great skill to be a fabricator/welder and if your good it pays well but the down side of the job are considerable. It's a similar deal with driving truck. Lots of job, pays well but the job sucks. Living life on the road, taking t he occasional shower, the crappy food. Beats being unemployed but not job most people want.
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Well, if you want to be a pussy, you can flip burgers for a living or learn to be an accountant.
 
Attila the Hun said:
Yup, short about 800,000. And machinists, by aboutn the same number. Trades overall are drying up in terms of avilable labor. Why? Well because it takes quite a while of long, boring work to get good. I've been welding for around 5 years now, and other than my TIG, I'm average at best. Trades take time to get good at, and many in my generation don't have the patience. Same reason my generation are shitty musicians.
Click to expand...

Would you go far as to say it takes more schooling to get good at welding than shooting?
 
Attila the Hun said:
Well, if you want to be a pussy, you can flip burgers for a living or learn to be an accountant.
Click to expand...

YEA! Avoiding something proven to kill you makes you a pussy! YEA!

What a bone head.

Maybe wear a mask?............jeez.

This post reminds me of so many idiot Americans. I went noodling for fish and I was called a pussy for wearing gloves. They got cuts, I didn't. I got called a pussy once for turning off the breaker box to work on electricity, they got injured in a job related accident and nearly died, I didn't.

Keep beating your chest and calling everyone a pussy while you make bad decisions and kill yourselves.
 
tekkychick said:
Don't know. They're good jobs. Maybe just not enough awareness? I know VoTech programs keep getting cut back in high schools; maybe that's part of it?
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you've never welded have you? You couldn't pay me enough to be one. I want to live to be old. I don't know how many times in past I sent welders home for metal fume fever or high lead levels.
 
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