The Great Depression vs. Today; And "Share the Wealth" program.

Anti-Party said:
I would do any work if necessary if I was put in that position. But I don't see these open jobs everyone keeps talking about and there has been no links. Maybe it's just in big cities, which I would believe...People go to cities because they are educated, not to be a labor worker.

But let's talk about the post. What should a welder make?

A welder risks heat exposure daily, is generally not in a climate controlled environment, gets burned daily even with safety equipment, does physical labor that can break down the body over time sometimes causing people to be unable to work before retirement (as all physical labor does). Balance that against a top clothing line. Kimora Lee Simmons makes $800Million a year for superficial threads hanging from the body. Capitalism and supply/demand are important for America. But not exposing pay inequality and supporting this is BULLSHIT.

If you ever watched the show Revolution where the power went out.......you can imagine the most important jobs in America. The people who work the most important jobs need to Unionize and stand up. Farmers, Mechanics, Construction, etc BREAKING BACK LABOR.

When the true necessary jobs in this Country understand their importance and fight for more money than the superficial jobs, we will see a big change.

The free market is necessary......but with education and information. No T-Shirt is worth more than another unless you have different thread count and it has nothing to do with brand name.
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Agreed. why do you think right wing politicians use divide and conquer wedge issues to get elected. Again, this is why education and learning critical thinking skills are so important. Far to many of these people we can't live without have these important trade skills but lack the critical thinking skills to protect their self interest leaving them open to exploitation. It's also why right wing probusiness oppose collective bargaining rights.
 
leaningright said:
I think that is a wonderful pie in the sky idea you have there. If I as a garbage man make $50,000 ... the same as the doctor or lawyer who went to school for years... I can tell you most of the garbage men would go for it but you would have very few doctors and lawyers. I never understood this line of thinking. It sounded good to me the first time I thought about it when a grade school teacher brought it up but when I really thought about it ... well, here, this sums it up better than I can:

"When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."
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learn to earn and earn to learn is what I was taught.
 
Anti-Party said:
I have to say, I was raised to be a hard worker because that is what a man is. This is a good argument. I was also taught that money doesn't make a person more important than the next.
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If bullshit was music, you’d be a fucking brass band! In past post you claimed to be an “abused child” beaten, threatened and ignored and that’s how you became such a tough bastard. You need to record your fucking lies and make reference to them whenever you post the next fucking lie so your contradictions wouldn’t be so fucking apparent moron!!!
 
Rose said:
Oh, please. Can you honestly say that the only reason people become lawyers and doctors rather than garbage men is money? No, you can't, because it's pure nonsense. There's personal ambition, pride, desire to help people, to enjoy your work, and so on; plenty of things past money.
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True. Dreaming about getting rich won't get you through grad school. You need more motivation than that.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
remember that when the "I hate taxes" politicians get elected. Public education is one of the first things to get defended. A more short sighted point of view does not exist.
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There’s absolutely NO constitutional authority for the federal government to be involved in or funding of education.
 
Annie said:
Conversely are you saying that garbage men or other fields don't have a desire to help people, enjoy their work and so on?

They provide the services that allow doctors and others to provide their services. Without those that collect refuse, including bio-hazards, docs wouldn't get very far.
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Which is exactly what I'm saying. The reasons for choosing any given field are varied, there's opportunity cost, subjective measures of preference, and so on. Some people are smarter than others, more fit to leadership, or to team-based activities, more physically capable, some are okay with long hours, some aren't, some just want the paycheck, some just want to immerse themselves in their work. This leaningright person wants to simplify it - I say that's ridiculous.

When it comes to the importance of low-skilled workers, we agree completely. I'm a socialist because those low-skilled workers are the backbone of modern civilization. I couldn't work, go to school, to the gym, or even make this post, if proletarians didn't make it possible. So should these (and all other) people not be the masters of their own lives, free from capitalists and the government?
 
Annie said:
Conversely are you saying that garbage men or other fields don't have a desire to help people, enjoy their work and so on?

They provide the services that allow doctors and others to provide their services. Without those that collect refuse, including bio-hazards, docs wouldn't get very far.
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Ya'll have a demeaning image of garbage men being low end laborers. I'm a garbage man and I have graduate degree, professional certification and I earn we'll above the median income.
 
Rose said:
Oh, please. Can you honestly say that the only reason people become lawyers and doctors rather than garbage men is money? No, you can't, because it's pure nonsense. There's personal ambition, pride, desire to help people, to enjoy your work, and so on; plenty of things past money.
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Ain’t that just like a fucking commie to be in total denial of human nature and the greatest of all human incentives to be justly compensated for the value of his/her labors?

Try paying doctors 50-G’s a year moron and see how many fucking doctors you have left and how much expertise they have.

Good doctors love their job, but their ”compensation” is what inspired them to become doctors stupid!!!
 
Classic Liberal said:
There’s absolutely NO constitutional authority for the federal government to be involved in or funding of education.
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Ever hear of the interstate commerce clause? Besides who gives a rats ass about that kind of dumbfuckery? Only a moron of staggering proportion would even be concerned about that. education is our nations most important strategic interest at ALL Levels of education and government, local, state and federal.
 
Rose said:
Which is exactly what I'm saying. The reasons for choosing any given field are varied, there's opportunity cost, subjective measures of preference, and so on. Some people are smarter than others, more fit to leadership, or to team-based activities, more physically capable, some are okay with long hours, some aren't, some just want the paycheck, some just want to immerse themselves in their work. This leaningright person wants to simplify it - I say that's ridiculous.

When it comes to the importance of low-skilled workers, we agree completely. I'm a socialist because those low-skilled workers are the backbone of modern civilization. I couldn't work, go to school, to the gym, or even make this post, if proletarians didn't make it possible. So should these (and all other) people not be the masters of their own lives, free from capitalists and the government?
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Let me just address the bolded part above by saying that I do agree with you. Someone has to take those jobs (and Mott, I ain't picking on garbage men, just wanted an example for my point) and I'm glad they do and think they should be able to make a living at them. But to say that some of those jobs should pay as much or even nearly as much as jobs for which people sacrifice for some years to attain is just crazy. And sure, you might find a minuscule number of people who became doctors because of the greater good, but it will be just that, a minuscule number. IMO, more and more people, especially nowadays, are like water running down a hill ...
 
leaningright said:
Let me just address the bolded part above by saying that I do agree with you. Someone has to take those jobs (and Mott, I ain't picking on garbage men, just wanted an example for my point) and I'm glad they do and think they should be able to make a living at them. But to say that some of those jobs should pay as much or even nearly as much as jobs for which people sacrifice for some years to attain is just crazy. And sure, you might find a minuscule number of people who became doctors because of the greater good, but it will be just that, a minuscule number. IMO, more and more people, especially nowadays, are like water running down a hill ...
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While I agree that a doctor should make more than a garbage collector - let's look at some other occupations.

Compare a teacher - who might have a master's or a PhD - to someone in sports - basketball, football, etc. Or to someone on TV. In those cases, the pay is not commensurate to education invested or years put into it.

Now of course that's partly due to supply & demand; there are very few people who can play pro-level football. On the other hand, there are a limited number of positions. Some of it's due to the short careers of most sports people. And of course some of it is due to people will pay a lot to watch a football game, but they won't pay to go watch a teacher teach.

I think lower-skilled jobs should pay enough to live on (whatever that is); and I think more importantly, as Rose said, we need to respect people who do those jobs; without them, we couldn't do what we do every day. Anyone been in a grocery store where the shelves weren't restocked? it's pretty annoying, isn't it?
 
Rana said:
I know, I have contact with people in Kansas going through the same thing with cuts.

I have been a long time advocate of the seven areas of intelligence and college not being for everyone. I admire European form of education, and agree our system needs some changes.
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I had a foreign exchange student from China last year. He was an OK math student but one of the funniest and most eye-opening exchanges (for my students) was when the kids were talking about differences between China and US schools and the young man said to one of my students who was a good kid but had no reason to be in Algebra II, "you and I wouldn't be in the same school, Garrett." Absolutely we need changes.
 
tekkychick said:
While I agree that a doctor should make more than a garbage collector - let's look at some other occupations.

Compare a teacher - who might have a master's or a PhD - to someone in sports - basketball, football, etc. Or to someone on TV. In those cases, the pay is not commensurate to education invested or years put into it.

Now of course that's partly due to supply & demand; there are very few people who can play pro-level football. On the other hand, there are a limited number of positions. Some of it's due to the short careers of most sports people. And of course some of it is due to people will pay a lot to watch a football game, but they won't pay to go watch a teacher teach.

I think lower-skilled jobs should pay enough to live on (whatever that is); and I think more importantly, as Rose said, we need to respect people who do those jobs; without them, we couldn't do what we do every day. Anyone been in a grocery store where the shelves weren't restocked? it's pretty annoying, isn't it?
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Absolutely...the conversation I am trying to have has nothing do to with respect, or lack of it. It is the idea that was brought up that if all jobs paid equally then each person in the working force today would be making about 50k per year. I'm all for making 50k per year as that would be a substantial raise for me but equality in pay is never going to fly ... and I really don't think it should.

As to Professional Sports and some other occupations, they don't even need to be in this conversation as some markets are just crazy. I would argue that the guy who can replace a valve in a persons heart is worth more than the guy who can put a basketball through a hoop or the woman who can bring a tear to your eye on the big screen but I'm sorry, that's just not the reality in our entertainment driven culture.
 
Classic Liberal said:
If bullshit was music, you’d be a fucking brass band! In past post you claimed to be an “abused child” beaten, threatened and ignored and that’s how you became such a tough bastard. You need to record your fucking lies and make reference to them whenever you post the next fucking lie so your contradictions wouldn’t be so fucking apparent moron!!!
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what make you think his life could not have contained both things?


You see you have no idea what reality is.

You just THINK you have it all figured out.


the world is NOT black and white
 
Carlos Danger said:
All of the RW Christians I have lived around donate considerable time and money toward others. These people probably just don't agree with you that their money should be taken and distributed according to someone else's plan.
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You are making my point. But first, I live around nothing but RW Christians and nearly none of them donate time. I'm a communitarian and can't drag them out of their house for a couple hours to improve the community.

I never said money should be taken and distributed...........I said Corporations should make the decisions for better pay equality on their own. Or the people should Unionize. Have you seen charts on how much a CEO gets compared to the industrial worker? Do you know how many of those workers could get raises if the CEO wasn't so greedy? This nonsense that we can't even talk about pay equality because it's automatically Socialism is from bs. It's only Socialism if it's forced by the government.
 
Anti-Party said:
I never said money should be taken and distributed...........I said Corporations should make the decisions for better pay equality on their own. Or the people should Unionize. Have you seen charts on how much a CEO gets compared to the industrial worker? Do you know how many of those workers could get raises if the CEO wasn't so greedy? This nonsense that we can't even talk about pay equality because it's automatically Socialism is from bs. It's only Socialism if it's forced by the government.
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Agree. the income gap keeps growing and growing, and isn't good for our country.

Isn't it the Japanese who limit the CEO pay to no more than 7 times the average worker's pay? or the lowest paid worker? do they do that anymore?
 
Im going to go look for a chart on the historicial numbers of this ceo to worker pay comparison next to the countries prosperity level.

some of those fools actually think the country does better as a whole when the CEOs get everything they want and the workers get dick.
 
Classic Liberal said:
If bullshit was music, you’d be a fucking brass band! In past post you claimed to be an “abused child” beaten, threatened and ignored and that’s how you became such a tough bastard. You need to record your fucking lies and make reference to them whenever you post the next fucking lie so your contradictions wouldn’t be so fucking apparent moron!!!
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I don't believe I ever called myself a bastard. But I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying that you can't be abused and also brought up to be a hard worker? Do you have to be nice to a child to force them to be a hard worker?
 
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