The Issue of Abortion

And yet I've found that even some Nazi doctors doing actual abortions had a higher moral code than you...

"...if the decree [to abort Slavic, particularly Polish] becomes known, the danger will exist that encouragement will be given to the prevailing tendency to approve of abortions, and that the gradual realization, on the part of the average person, of how abominable such a practice is, will be completely eliminated."
-A Nazi doctor doing abortions, 1943. TWC, IV, 1083-1084
 
Originally Posted by bravo
.Originally Posted by apple0154

Why a birthday? What's so special about a birthday?

BRAVO: Nothing special about a birthday, pinhead....they could have made it 60 years after first grade...what difference does it make where the measurement starts? Its gotta start somewhere?

APPLE: It's not just about pensions. Why does a birth entitle someone to citizenship? Why not conception? Why mark birth dates on grave stones? Why bother with birth dates at all?
B.Reply...
I agree, birth alone should not entitle one to citizenship.
Why not conception?...Take that up with Jefferson.
Birth dates on grave stones? Why not? We KNOW when a person is born, but we don't know EXACTLY when a person is conceived...
Why bother with birth dates at all?...a good excuse for a party..
===================================================
And if fertilized cells are human beings then shouldn't we, as a society, have a proper inquest when one dies? Shouldn't miscarriages be investigated?
B.Reply...
We do if foul play is suspected in its death like any death....
====================================================

APPLE:My comment was, "And, of course, we still have that elephant in the room which is what is the life of the fetus worth vis-a-vis the mother's health."
B.Reply...
Anythings "value" is a relative determination , a personal decision....
====================================================
Why can't I get a straight answer from you or any of the other anti-abortionists? All I hear is a pregnant woman should have the right to abort for medical reasons. So, what medical reasons would justify the right for a woman with a defective body to kill an innocent human being, assuming a fetus is a human being?

BRAVO:You got a straight answer numerous times...NOW there are no reasons required, nothing.....others say "when the life of the mother is threatened"....

APPLE: So severe damage is OK? If a doctor says the woman will suffer complete loss of eye sight due to uncontrolled diabetes that's just the way the cookie crumbles? If she will lose her job and home, too bad? Is that what you mean?

B.Reply...
If a doctor says the woman will suffer complete loss of eye sight due to uncontrolled diabetes then the problem is UNCONTROLLED DIABETES...if here job or home is lost, its due to other problems, not childbirth....
Millions upon millions of women give birth every day around the world without losing their vision or homes or jobs....
============================================

APPLE: Has no one thought about that? Is the reason no one answers because it's all a lie and women wouldn't be allowed to abort regardless of any medical reason? Or is the reason persons pretending to stand tall for the value of life are afraid to show they are, in reality, uber-hypocrites if they answered the loss of a foot or toe or diminished eye sight or the loss of a kidney?

BRAVO: When mothers life is threatened has nothing to do with eyesight or loss of a toe....how does bearing a child cause the loss of a toe? If you're afraid the baby will fall out an crush her toe, just have the women move her feet farther apart, like she did to get into this position in the first place.

APPLE: Glad you asked. Circulation problems due to uncontrolled diabetes results in gangrene. While not a medical doctor I have witnessed people having suffered foot amputations and it frequently starts by a toe or two.

B.Reply...
I agree...diabetes is a serious problem....not caused by childbirth....as a matter of fact, I have diabetes and never had a kid by virture of being a man....you ass....
 
apple0154 said:
You really are a Republican, aren't you? Offering the same old, tired, worn out ideas. Ideas that have been tried and failed but, hey, let's do the same thing again.
Click to expand...

/shrugs....I haven't seen liberals come up with anything new since "let's kill children" came to be the law......you've stuck with your lies even though science has disproved you......you're beneath disgusting......hanging on to your desire to kill even though science shows what you are killing is a living human being.....and trying to justify the ultimate abuse by pretending you're saving them from something.....
 
apple0154 said:
I don't suppose you have any further info on that. Perhaps a link? An account of what exactly takes place that would result in an abortion resulting in a birth?
Click to expand...

typical liberal.....denies what everyone knows to be true.....are you going to pretend Obama did not vote to shield doctors and nurses from prosecution if they withheld medical care from children delivered alive during an attempt at abortion.....he hasn't denied it.....claimed he did it to preserve the right of abortion.....if he admits it, why do you deny it?.....
 
apple0154 said:
Until people control their reproductive urges or mistakes I believe abortion is preferable to bringing unwanted children into the world. Obviously it's better for the unwanted child but it's also better for society, as a whole.
Click to expand...

no, it would be better for society if we removed people that think as you do.....
 
bravo said:
So is this where you got your education?
The Abortion Policies of Nazi Germany

excerpt:

The campaign to legalize abortion, or to liberalize Section 218 of the 1871 national law forbidding it, was an issue for almost the entire history of the Weimar democracy, something not known even to most specialists who study this period. Some nineteen measures concerning legalization/liberalization were introduced between 1919 and 1932.(19) Most of the debate occurred from 1920 to 1930, before there was any sizable number of Nazis in the national parliament, or Reichstag. Supported by the progressives, liberals, or political left, advocates for legalization/liberalization made arguments in the 1920s which were not very different from arguments still being used today:

* Women needed to control their reproduction better, now that so many were workers as well as wives and mothers
* The wealthy could get abortions, despite the law
* The poor were getting abortions anyway; the law was unenforceable
* The poor were frequently being harmed by the untrained and "quacks"
* Children should be planned and wanted (this was the result of the eugenics movement)
* Unborn life was unconscious, while born women were conscious
* Morality is a personal matter
Click to expand...

Your post appears contradictory. You wrote, "So is this where you got your education? The Abortion Policies of Nazi Germany" and then go on to post, "Some nineteen measures concerning legalization/liberalization were introduced between 1919 and 1932. Most of the debate occurred from 1920 to 1930, before there was any sizable number of Nazis in the national parliament..."

So, if abortion policy was made before there were a sizable number of Nazis in government it follows the policies were not originally Nazi policies, merely policies the Nazis never changed.

Your post makes it clear it was the "progressives, liberals, or political left" who first discussed the policies. As for the arguments being similar today, of course. Many of the concerns raised are just as valid today as I noted in a previous post.

The wealthy do have ways to get around restrictive abortion laws such as traveling to another country or bribing a doctor. A wealthy individual, as opposed to a poor individual, is more likely to have a doctor as a friend/acquaintance.

The poor will resort to back alley abortions and suffer.

Children should be planned.

It's strange you would have objections to those things mentioned.
 
bravo said:
"...abortion is a necessary evil that we must accept out of respect for life."
- Dr. Ley, Nazi racial hygienist, on having "quality," "planned" children, at a meeting on June 15, 1937 with Nazi SS head, Heinrich Himmler. PSR, R320/N518, pp. 85-88.

Your not alone in that thinking.....its an old concept...it goes back to at least 1937 anyway.
Click to expand...

I really get a kick out of it when people bring up Nazis for comparison. I hope you're not a non-smoker as Hitler was a non-smoker. :)
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
I'm not going to fall into the spin that you have always tried to do, when pressed to provided proof of your assertions.

You implied that all the aborted babies would have been neglected and/or abused.
Either show recent data (not 50 years ago) that supports your supposition, unless you're just once again pulling a feeling out of your ass.
Click to expand...

Where did you receive your education? Have you ever heard the term "critical thinking"? Wiki defines it as, "Critical thinking, in its broadest sense has been described as "purposeful reflective judgment concerning what to believe or what to do."

"Purposeful reflective judgment"
Purposeful: having a purpose; significant
Reflective: given to, marked by, or concerned with meditation or deliberation
Judgment: the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely,

So, what would happen if the country was flooded with unwanted children? To answer that question we have to use "critical thinking" or "purposeful reflective judgment concerning what to believe or what to do."

When contemplating future events one looks to the past to see if there was a similar situation and what occurred. (I know that's difficult for anti-abortionists as they consider the present and the future as one.)

Anyway, we have plenty of information on what happened to unwanted children. First hand information from a number of countries. Critical thinking, or "purposeful reflective judgment", informs us exactly what would happen should the same situation arise since nothing material has changed.

We still have children living in poverty and people complaining about helping them because they don't want their taxes to increase. "To hell with the single mother and her child" is the Conservative mantra. It doesn't take a lot of thinking to understand what would happen to children in an institution.

As to your comment "...you're just once again pulling a feeling out of your ass" I submit your problem may be due to your being anal-retentive. Take your mind off your ass and put it to good use by educating yourself.

As for your comment, "I'm not going to fall into the spin..." there is no spin. I'm asked you to let me know why you believe unwanted children wouldn't be neglected and abused. On what do you base your belief other than using your ass as a magic eight ball?
 
bravo said:
And yet I've found that even some Nazi doctors doing actual abortions had a higher moral code than you...

"...if the decree [to abort Slavic, particularly Polish] becomes known, the danger will exist that encouragement will be given to the prevailing tendency to approve of abortions, and that the gradual realization, on the part of the average person, of how abominable such a practice is, will be completely eliminated."
-A Nazi doctor doing abortions, 1943. TWC, IV, 1083-1084
Click to expand...

I see you're quite infatuated with the Nazis. Any particular reason?
 
bravo said:
Why bother with birth dates at all?...a good excuse for a party..
Click to expand...

I knew we could find common ground!

We do if foul play is suspected in its death like any death....
Click to expand...

Really? When a miscarriage occurs are friends and neighbors interviewed seeking tips on the person's recent behavior? Are copies of their credit card transactions demanded to see if they took a vacation that might have involved overly strenuous activity? Do tell. What, exactly, does the investigation entail?

If a doctor says the woman will suffer complete loss of eye sight due to uncontrolled diabetes then the problem is UNCONTROLLED DIABETES...if here job or home is lost, its due to other problems, not childbirth....
Millions upon millions of women give birth every day around the world without losing their vision or homes or jobs....
Click to expand...

So your saying if a woman contracts uncontrolled diabetes due to pregnancy she must continue with the pregnancy even if it means she will lose her eye sight. Is that correct?

I agree...diabetes is a serious problem....not caused by childbirth....as a matter of fact, I have diabetes and never had a kid by virture of being a man....you ass....
Click to expand...

Two points. First, pregnancy can bring on gestational diabetes which corrects itself after the birth. Please, educate yourself.

Second point. You may be a male but definitely not a man if you compare the value of a woman to that of a fertilized cell.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
/shrugs....I haven't seen liberals come up with anything new since "let's kill children" came to be the law......you've stuck with your lies even though science has disproved you......you're beneath disgusting......hanging on to your desire to kill even though science shows what you are killing is a living human being.....and trying to justify the ultimate abuse by pretending you're saving them from something.....
Click to expand...

But Liberals have tried to come up with "something" and Conservatives have stopped them every chance they could. How many single mothers lost their job while the Repubs resisted extending UI payments? We're all aware of the Cons/Repubs attitude towards single mothers. Gee, I wonder why women choose abortion?

As for science showing something is a human being once again your ignorance shines through. Science shows no such thing. It simply determines if DNA is human material.

Repeat after me. "Science shows if DNA is from human material. It does not show if something is a human being."

Please make an effort to overcome your ignorance.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
typical liberal.....denies what everyone knows to be true.....are you going to pretend Obama did not vote to shield doctors and nurses from prosecution if they withheld medical care from children delivered alive during an attempt at abortion.....he hasn't denied it.....claimed he did it to preserve the right of abortion.....if he admits it, why do you deny it?.....
Click to expand...

Link? :)
 
PostmodernProphet said:
no, it would be better for society if we removed people that think as you do.....
Click to expand...

Don't you find it strange that the majority of advanced countries and their citizens disagree with you? People around the globe have heard the bizarre arguments of the anti-abortionists and dismissed them.

Now it's time to dismiss you.
 
apple0154 said:
I knew we could find common ground!

Two points. First, pregnancy can bring on gestational diabetes which corrects itself after the birth. Please, educate yourself.

Yes, it can....not it WILL, and if that threatens mommies life she absolutely should take all actions necessary to exercise her right of self defense...

Today, with careful planning and preconception care, diabetic women have as much chance as non-diabetic women of having a problem-free pregnancy and a healthy baby.

Its not 1950 anymore....

Second point. You may be a male but definitely not a man if you compare the value of a woman to that of a fertilized cell.

Before being exposed to your particular strain of insanity, I would have said I value all human life equally, but I'm beginning to question that lately...
Click to expand...
.
 
apple0154 said:
But Liberals have tried to come up with "something" and Conservatives have stopped them every chance they could. How many single mothers lost their job while the Repubs resisted extending UI payments? We're all aware of the Cons/Repubs attitude towards single mothers. Gee, I wonder why women choose abortion?

As for science showing something is a human being once again your ignorance shines through. Science shows no such thing. It simply determines if DNA is human material.

Repeat after me. "Science shows if DNA is from human material. It does not show if something is a human being."

Please make an effort to overcome your ignorance.
Click to expand...

Yeah PMP, don't you know that the HUMAN DNA could mean its actually a goat....or a horses ass like Apple.
:bang::lol:
 
Gestational diabetes is not usually life threatening. A change in diet, some medications, and the mother will survive just fine without killing the child. It's silly to suggest that death is the only option of self-preservation when the solution is so much simpler and less deadly to innocence.

It is also usually later when gestational diabetes is discovered.
 
bravo said:
Yeah PMP, don't you know that the HUMAN DNA could mean its actually a goat....or a horses ass like Apple.
:bang::lol:
Click to expand...

Of simply a liver or a kidney or piece of skin.

My goodness, you attempt to write a derogatory comment to be funny and all it does is show up your ignorance regarding DNA. :palm:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top