The Issue of Abortion

But they're not interested in reducing abortions. They're interested in reducing women to second class citizens.

Exactly! Nothing like the threat of having to bear a child to interfere with a woman's sexual behavior.

Furthermore, as to the religious aspect, in 1869 Pope Pius IX forbade all abortions in exchange for France’s Napoleon III acknowledging papal infallibility. France’s population had experienced a sharp decrease over the previous 60 years.

Yes, France needed young men to send to the slaughter of war and as for the Pope who would turn down the opportunity to be referred to as infallible? Truly a deal made in Hell.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The charges are bogus.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/10/is_obama_guilty_of_infanticide.html

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html

I support a woman's right to decide what to do with her uterus and her life. I held that view before I even knew of Barack Obama.

If the right were truly concerned about reducing abortions, they would be big supporters of sex education and access to contraceptives.

But they're not interested in reducing abortions. They're interested in reducing women to second class citizens.
 
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apple, apple, apple.....:palm:....do all of your comments have to be so irrelevant to issue being discussed?
 
apple, apple, apple.....:palm:....do all of your comments have to be so irrelevant to issue being discussed?

Bravo, the relevancy is the addressing of the big picture which I've noticed you have difficulty understanding; be it abortion, health care, government assistance to companies, etc.

The OP wrote,
What I haven't been able to shake is that the Republican party controlled the White House for eight years and did nothing to prevent or legislate abortion…………….I would like to see heavy restriction placed on it and a better job of letting young mothers know what their options are. But seeing this made it even clearer to me that Republican politicians aren't interested in solving the issue, they are interested only in growing the issue to further wedge voters.

As Bfgrn pointed out and to which I added additional comments the abortion debate is about a lot more than the supposed "unborn human being". It is grounded in the domination of women.

From the 4th Century when St.Augustine laid down Catholic dogma sanctioning abortion up to 80 days for female fetus and up to 40 days for male fetus, I assume on the belief the female soul was always fashionably late arriving, resulting in by the time a women realized she was pregnant it was too late to abort to the sleazy deal between Napoleon and the Pope to the 1976 Hyde Amendment barring the use of Federal Medicaid funds to provide abortions to poor women resulting in Rosie Jimenez, a 27- year-old mother on welfare, dying due to having an illegal abortion as she could not afford to get a legal abortion due to the Hyde Amendment it's clear no attempt was below contempt to control women. (How was that for a run-on sentence?)

The Freedom Revolution of the 60s opened the proverbial barn door and the fillies are gone, long gone. Even Republican women realize the true motive behind abortion restriction. That's why OhioDem didn't see Republican politicians trying to "solve" the issue.

The abortion debate is like rattling on about family values. Everyone's on board but God help any politician that tries to implement any policy that would directly interfere with families. Should families have dinner together? Of course. Should families do activities together? Of course. Would anyone support a government which mandated families must have dinner together and must do activities together?

OhioDem is quite correct. Abortion is a divisive issue and most people would prefer it didn't occur but the majority would never accept a government dictate because they understand the repercussions, the hidden intent behind it. It strips a woman of the most basic right and that is the right to control her own body.

That is the relevancy, Bravo. The soul, the need for soldiers, DNA....there will always be a reason put forward but the bottom line is the control of women and those days are over. That's why neither political party is going to change anything.
 
This organization is taking its time to create the very best legal argument using the only possible legal means to overturn Roe- Other law. Scouring cases developing an argument and bidnig their time for the right circumstance to challenge...This is long but well worth the read! What follows is one area that they seek to educate those involved with this fight on.

What Exactly is “Constitutional Personhood”? The Definition of Personhood and Its Role in the Life Debate
This entry was posted on Friday, April 23rd, 2010 by Americans United for Life.


J. Margaret Datiles
Staff Counsel, Americans United for Life

The debate over legislation and voter initiatives defining state constitutional “personhood” to include the unborn from conception (commonly referred to as “Human Life Amendments,” or “HLAs”) has sparked significant interest both inside and outside the pro-life community. An overarching goal of the pro-life movement is to protect the innocent lives of unborn persons, and state HLAs have been suggested as one possible means to achieve this goal. However, the media and many advocates on both sides of the abortion debate are not clear about the meaning and effect of the various forms of “personhood.” Consequently, it has become difficult to engage in an effective discussion of the personhood of the unborn and various methods or tools for securing legal protection of the unborn.

To facilitate and improve the on-going dialogue on the question of personhood, this article (1) clearly defines and distinguishes the terms “moral person,” “legal person,” and “constitutional person;” (2) points out how problems will arise from a lack of understanding of the differences between these terms; and (3) discusses the significance of these distinctions in the context of the debate on life issues.

The Moral Person

Thinking of the term “moral person” brings to mind the notion of the moral agent. The moral agent, generally speaking, is a being that is capable of knowing the difference between good and evil; is capable of making moral judgments based on this knowledge; can choose to engage in, and does engage in, good and evil actions; and can be held responsible for the good or evil actions engaged in. The moral person, in other words, is a rational being. However, is moral personhood conferred merely by having a rational nature, or by actual engaging in rational activities?

According to the traditional definition, (moral) personhood is something that a human being has simply because he/she is a human being with a rational nature, regardless of whether or not rational activity ever takes place. The classical philosophical definition of (moral) person was provided by Boethius:

Person is an individual substance of rational nature. As individual it is material, since matter supplies the principle of individuation. The soul is not person, only the composite is. Man alone is among the material beings person, he alone having a rational nature. He is the highest of the material beings, endowed with particular dignity and rights.1 (Emphasis added)

However, John Locke presented a different (modern) approach to (moral) personhood. According to Locke, a person is “a thinking intelligent Being, that has reason and reflection, and can consider itself as itself, the same thinking thing in different times and places; which it does only by that consciousness, which is inseparable from thinking, and as it seems to me essential to it.”2 For Locke, personhood is not dependent on merely having a rational nature; rather, it is dependent on the actual use of reason.

In short, classical philosophy treats all members of the human species as (moral) persons, whereas in modern philosophy, not all members of the human species qualify as (moral) persons.

The Legal Person

Unlike moral personhood, legal personhood is conferred by positive (or “man-made”) law. Positive law comes in two forms: common law and statutory law. A legal person is an entity that is recognized and protected under common law or statutory law. More specifically, a legal person is an entity who can, under common law or statutory law, hold and sell property, and sue or be sued.

It is clear that one does not need to be a member of the human species to be a legal person – corporations, law firms and schools are legal persons, although not human. Furthermore, not all members of the human species are legal persons – born and unborn children are not legal persons in some circumstances. In this way, the definition of “legal personhood” is in part informed by Locke’s theory of personhood (that not all humans are persons).

The category of legal personhood encompasses limited portions of two separate and distinct spheres: humans and non-humans. The definition of legal personhood extends to a limited segment of humans, and to a limited segment of non-humans (e.g., it extends to legally-formed corporations, but not to plants).

History of Legal Personhood

Historically, the most significant law that protected the sanctity of human life was homicide law. By definition, it prohibited the killing of a human being as a human being, strictly speaking, without explicitly referring to the human being as a person. Today, as a practical matter, fetal homicide laws and wrongful death laws do protect the life of the unborn child as a human being. Moreover, wrongful death laws protect the unborn child as a “person,” since wrongful death laws protect persons as persons. The role of legal personhood in the life debate shall be discussed in further detail in the sections to follow.

The Constitutional Person

A broad definition of “constitutional personhood” is the status of a human being or legal entity with some or all constitutional rights. In the abortion context however, the term “constitutional personhood” refers to the idea of a definition attributable to the word “person” in the constitutional text, specifically for purposes of the 14th Amendment right of all “persons” to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In this context, there is currently no such thing as constitutional personhood. The Founding Fathers placed no such definition in the Constitution.

Problems with Failure to Recognize the Difference between the Definitions of “Personhood”

The distinctions between moral personhood, legal personhood and constitutional personhood are significant. The terms cannot be used interchangeably, lest the entire dialogue be rendered incomprehensible and meaningless.

To provide a brief explanation of why the terms cannot be substituted for one another, consider the following: A legal person is sometimes, but may not always be a moral person (e.g., a corporation is not a moral person). A moral person is sometimes, but may not always be a legal person (e.g., a born child cannot sell property). A legal person is sometimes, but may not always be a constitutional person (e.g., a corporation does not have a constitutional right to protection against self-incrimination). A constitutional person is sometimes, but not always a legal person. A constitutional person is sometimes, but may not always be a moral person (e.g., a corporation is not a moral person). Lastly, a moral person is sometimes, but may not always be a constitutional person (e.g., an unborn child is not a constitutional person).

It is clear that if the various types of “personhood” are used interchangeably, the entire conversation would simply not make sense!

Understanding the Different Roles of Legal and Constitutional Personhood in the Life Debate

It has been demonstrated that one need not be a constitutional person to be a legal person; in other words, “personhood” does not need to be defined in the Constitution for a human being to have legal protection. Evidence supporting this conclusion can be drawn directly from the life debates. For example, state and federal protections for unborn victims of violence (also known as “fetal homicide laws”) treat the unborn as legal persons by treating the killing of an unborn human as a form of homicide. Hence, the unborn are protected in law in certain instances, even without constitutional personhood.

It is also important to note that, even if an unborn person is given constitutional personhood by means of an HLA, that unborn person is not necessarily a legal person protected by criminal homicide laws. This is because the Constitution only applies to actions of the U.S. Government, and not actions by individual persons. The creation of constitutional personhood for the unborn will not stop abortion providers from killing unborn children by abortion. Only a criminal homicide law that establishes legal personhood for the unborn could stop abortion providers from killing the unborn through abortion. In other words, an HLA by itself would not be an effective way to provide comprehensive protection for the unborn.

However, this is not to say that constitutional amendments are uniformly not a prudent path. For example, if an activist state supreme court enshrines Roe in a state constitution, adopting a tightly drafted amendment that is tailored to that decision with the specific intent to correct the decision would be the only way to address the situation. Moreover, a personhood amendment is not the only kind of constitutional amendment that can counter Roe. For example, an alternate amendment could be one that establishes that “no right to abortion is protected by the constitution.”

It is important to remember that constitutional amendments come at the end of a series of legal and social reform, not at the beginning. They are the “crowning achievement” of a record of legislative and cultural changes, rather than the catalyst that begins such change. Amendments have historically functioned as “reinforcers” of already-existing legal policies and cultural values. The history leading to the adoption of the 13th Amendment and 19th Amendment are perfect examples of this principle and historical trend.

Conclusion

In short, the media and others engaging in the life debate need to recognize the distinctions between the definitions of moral personhood, statutory and common law personhood and constitutional personhood, and they must not use the terms interchangeably. Increased awareness must be given to the fact that the unborn are protected in law in certain circumstances without constitutional personhood. In addition, there must be increased awareness that a human life amendment would not apply to individual abortion providers and would not afford the unborn legal statutory personhood. The public must know that there are many ways to protect the sanctity of human life aside from an amendment to the Constitution that would create constitutional personhood for the unborn, and also take away the abortion issue from the states. This awareness requires an understanding of the various forms and definitions of personhood, and an openness to considering all feasible and effective ways to protect human life. Once this awareness is achieved, only then can a comprehensible and effective dialogue on human personhood take place.
 
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Bravo, the relevancy is the addressing of the big picture which I've noticed you have difficulty understanding; be it abortion, health care, government assistance to companies, etc.

The OP wrote,

As Bfgrn pointed out and to which I added additional comments the abortion debate is about a lot more than the supposed "unborn human being". It is grounded in the domination of women.

From the 4th Century when St.Augustine laid down Catholic dogma sanctioning abortion up to 80 days for female fetus and up to 40 days for male fetus, I assume on the belief the female soul was always fashionably late arriving, resulting in by the time a women realized she was pregnant it was too late to abort to the sleazy deal between Napoleon and the Pope to the 1976 Hyde Amendment barring the use of Federal Medicaid funds to provide abortions to poor women resulting in Rosie Jimenez, a 27- year-old mother on welfare, dying due to having an illegal abortion as she could not afford to get a legal abortion due to the Hyde Amendment it's clear no attempt was below contempt to control women. (How was that for a run-on sentence?)


The Freedom Revolution of the 60s opened the proverbial barn door and the fillies are gone, long gone. Even Republican women realize the true motive behind abortion restriction. That's why OhioDem didn't see Republican politicians trying to "solve" the issue.


The abortion debate is like rattling on about family values. Everyone's on board but God help any politician that tries to implement any policy that would directly interfere with families. Should families have dinner together? Of course. Should families do activities together? Of course. Would anyone support a government which mandated families must have dinner together and must do activities together?


.............:blah:.......Irrelevant bullshit in pretty green..............:bs:
=====================================================


OhioDem is quite correct. Abortion is a divisive issue and most people would prefer it didn't occur but the majority would never accept a government dictate because they understand the repercussions, the hidden intent behind it. It strips a woman of the most basic right and that is the right to control her own body.
(OhioDem is also pro-life and against abortion...so is he "quite correct"?)


That is the relevancy, Bravo. The soul, the need for soldiers, DNA....there will always be a reason put forward but the bottom line is the control of women and those days are over. That's why neither political party is going to change anything.
----------------
Abortion is the law...its a settled legal issue...and neither Democrats NOR Republicans are trying to overturn Roe....(Apples lie #1 states Rep. are trying to overturn Roe)

Generally speaking,
View from the right.....Pregnancy is not a disease...
Some feel that in all but some limited circumstances, taxpayers should not be paying for its use any more that they should be paying for someones face lift....and
Some want to limit its use to only certain defined cases of pregnancy(rape, incest, threat to mothers life...

View from the left......Government(taxpayers) should pay for abortion as any other medical procedure...and there should be no time limits on its use,
or reasons for its use....Free abortion on demand

My view....its legal and its your right to kill your child in the womb and in some cases, even outside the womb....just don't try to deny what you are in fact doing. Enjoy.
 
do not argue abortion with apple unless you are prepared to kill him.....his insane arguments will drive you crazy.....

That's because apple does not have sound arguments; instead of answering challenges put to him, he uses circular inanities supported by fallacious arguments and false analogies. I first met apple on aol's abortion board...he is still using the same scheme. I notice he uses it in several different topics-I guess it's his style? He's a nice enough guy however.
 
do not argue abortion with apple unless you are prepared to kill him.....his insane arguments will drive you crazy.....

My insane arguments? Thank-you but I'm no match for those who have put forward arguments opposing abortion. Things like the female soul always showing up late or the need for young men to be sent to the slaughter of war disguised as concern for the fetus or claiming a mass of cells the size of a pin head is a human being.

What will they think of next? :rolleyes:
 
That's because apple does not have sound arguments; instead of answering challenges put to him, he uses circular inanities supported by fallacious arguments and false analogies. I first met apple on aol's abortion board...he is still using the same scheme. I notice he uses it in several different topics-I guess it's his style? He's a nice enough guy however.

Let's hear the challenges.

As for sound arguments I've listed a few reasons why abortion has been opposed. Souls entering bodies. The need for young men to go to war.

Then we have those who claim a fetus is a human being while, at the same time, advocating the mother has a right to kill said human being if her body is defective. Her body.

Then there's those who justify the killing of the supposed human being (fetus) depending on how that human being came into existence. Because mommy fell asleep drunk and her boyfriend has sex with her that would give her the right to kill another human being?

If anyone devalues human life it's the anti-abortionist. Claim something is a human being and then list all the reasons it can be killed. Rape, incest, a woman's defective body....

Oh, well. I'm sure you're a cutie. Just a misguided one. :)
 
My insane arguments? Thank-you but I'm no match for those who have put forward arguments opposing abortion. Things like the female soul always showing up late or the need for young men to be sent to the slaughter of war disguised as concern for the fetus or claiming a mass of cells the size of a pin head is a human being.

What will they think of next? :rolleyes:

nothing as absurd as you will claim they have, obviously......after all, you deny human beings are human beings using the most absurd arguments ever raised.....

Then we have those who claim a fetus is a human being while, at the same time, advocating the mother has a right to kill said human being if her body is defective. Her body.
and this is the stupidest claim of all......
 
My insane arguments? Thank-you but I'm no match for those who have put forward arguments opposing abortion. Things like the female soul always showing up late or the need for young men to be sent to the slaughter of war disguised as concern for the fetus or claiming a mass of cells the size of a pin head is a human being.

What will they think of next? :rolleyes:
Ha...the fact that you post nonsense about 4th Century Catholic dogma and St.Augustin, which you obviously get from your KKK-like, anti-Catholic, hate sources shows you are insane, to a degree....but insane nevertheless.....
Your sources probably have a personally autographed picture of Jesus Christ for sale too....along with its anti-Catholic, anti-abortion literature.

Its also clear, science/biology isn't one of your strong points either...

Get over it....its legal, kill 'em if you got 'em, have fun.....and then you can cook and eat 'em for all I give a shit....it won't hurt me in the least....
 
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nothing as absurd as you will claim they have, obviously......after all, you deny human beings are human beings using the most absurd arguments ever raised.....

Obviously you lack historical knowledge. People have come up with the most bizarre reasons to force a woman to bear a child. As repugnant as that is the typical anti-abortionist's belief becomes abominable in regards to a woman's defective body. Be it uncontrolled diabetes or blood pressure, the woman's health always comes before the life of the other supposed human being, the fetus.

What the anti-abortionists never specify is what possible degree of damage to a woman's body is sufficient to take another human being's life, assuming of course, a fetus is a human being. Possible kidney damage? Possible partial loss of eyesight? Possible amputation of a toe or foot or leg due to circulation problems caused by diabetes?

Let's call it what it is. If a fetus is a human being and a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy due to possible medical damage it is justifying murder as a precaution.

Perhaps you could explain where that fits in the file under "sanctity of life"?
 
Obviously you lack historical knowledge. People have come up with the most bizarre reasons to force a woman to bear a child. As repugnant as that is the typical anti-abortionist's belief becomes abominable in regards to a woman's defective body. Be it uncontrolled diabetes or blood pressure, the woman's health always comes before the life of the other supposed human being, the fetus.

What the anti-abortionists never specify is what possible degree of damage to a woman's body is sufficient to take another human being's life, assuming of course, a fetus is a human being. Possible kidney damage? Possible partial loss of eyesight? Possible amputation of a toe or foot or leg due to circulation problems caused by diabetes?

Let's call it what it is. If a fetus is a human being and a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy due to possible medical damage it is justifying murder as a precaution.

Perhaps you could explain where that fits in the file under "sanctity of life"?
"sanctity of life"?......Thats a relic from earlier times....
A hang-nail, a head-ache, unruly hair...anything goes....its abortion on demand, anytime....1 week, 1 month, 6 months, 9 months, even if you have an accidental live birth and the baby...oh strike that, the mass of cells is crying, and fighting for breath,.... just kill the little fucker....
Its a protected right, clearly in the Constitution drafted by the Founding Fathers.....its in the 2nd amendment, or maybe the 11th, or 21st....well its in their somewhere...the Liberals on the Supreme Court read it somewhere, just like Jefferson wrote it...I think.....
If you ever need a part time job pinhead, you can hold the vacuum cleaner in the un-delivery room.....be the finger and toe counter if you can count to ten................twice.
 
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Ha...the fact that you post nonsense about 4th Century Catholic dogma and St.Augustin, which you obviously get from your KKK-like, anti-Catholic, hate sources shows you are insane, to a degree....but insane nevertheless.....
Your sources probably have a personally autographed picture of Jesus Christ for sale too....along with its anti-Catholic, anti-abortion literature.

Its also clear, science/biology isn't one of your strong points either...

Get over it....its legal, kill 'em if you got 'em, have fun.....and then you can cook and eat 'em for all I give a shit....it won't hurt me in the least....

"you can cook and eat 'em for all I give a shit....it won't hurt me in the least"

My goodness. That's not a very nice way to talk. :(

As for Catholic dogma I have no quarrel with it nor with the people of France regarding Napoleon III's deal with the Pope. I was merely showing the absurd reasoning/motives people have used to subjugate women.

As for science/biology not being one of my strong points it is your lack of understanding regarding science/biology coupled with a lack of common sense. Science/biology concerns a process. When discussing pregnancy we are not talking quantum mechanics where things appear to "pop into existence".

DNA is one way to classify something, however, there are a number of ways to classify things which brings us to the "cook and eat 'em" comment. While a tomato seed shares DNA with a tomato only a fool would substitute seeds for tomatoes in a spaghetti sauce. Agreed?
 
"you can cook and eat 'em for all I give a shit....it won't hurt me in the least"

My goodness. That's not a very nice way to talk. :(

As for Catholic dogma I have no quarrel with it nor with the people of France regarding Napoleon III's deal with the Pope. I was merely showing the absurd reasoning/motives people have used to subjugate women.

As for science/biology not being one of my strong points it is your lack of understanding regarding science/biology coupled with a lack of common sense. Science/biology concerns a process. When discussing pregnancy we are not talking quantum mechanics where things appear to "pop into existence".

DNA is one way to classify something, however, there are a number of ways to classify things which brings us to the "cook and eat 'em" comment. While a tomato seed shares DNA with a tomato only a fool would substitute seeds for tomatoes in a spaghetti sauce. Agreed?

We have something right...we are not talking quantum mechanics where things appear to "pop into existence".

No....In pregnancy, 'something' doesn't just pop into existence....no, pregnancy is a lengthy procedure.....approximately 270 days or so....
and pregnancy, being a lengthy procedure, it HAS a DEFINITE BEGINNING.....AND END
a beginning when a human life STARTS....when that first cell starts on its journey of growth and maturity....

We've been through this before so I'll just stop it here....

because this is already way, way over your understanding of biology and science of the human life cycle.....
 
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"sanctity of life"?......Thats a relic from earlier times....
A hang-nail, a head-ache, unruly hair...anything goes....its abortion on demand, anytime....1 week, 1 month, 6 months, 9 months, even if you have an accidental live birth and the baby...oh strike that, the mass of cells is crying, and fighting for breath,.... just kill the little fucker....
Its a protected right, clearly in the Constitution drafted by the Founding Fathers.....its in the 2nd amendment, or maybe the 11th, or 21st....well its in their somewhere...the Liberals on the Supreme Court read it somewhere, just like Jefferson wrote it...I think.....
If you ever need a part time job pinhead, you can hold the vacuum cleaner in the un-delivery room.....be the finger and toe counter if you can count to ten................twice.

Your post is the typical "can't see the forest for the trees". As I previously mentioned you have difficulty seeing the big picture.

If one is going to classify a fetus as a human being one has to see if the pieces of the puzzle fit, for lack of a better term. Can the definitions and customs and laws which society applies to human beings be applied to a fetus?

The most obvious example is the woman's right to terminate a problem pregnancy. How can anyone justify a person with a defective body taking the life of an innocent human being?

Few people believe a fetus should be granted the same rights as any other human being especially regarding the health of the woman and still fewer believe the fetus is equal when it comes to the life of the woman.

It appears you find a problem with "A hang-nail, a head-ache, unruly hair...anything goes" so I ask, "What should be a go?" A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe? In your estimation what is the life of a human being, here referred to as "fetus", worth?

Considering your active participation in abortion threads/discussions surely you've given it due consideration. Perhaps we might find common ground if we take the conversation in that direction.
 
We have something right...we are not talking quantum mechanics where things appear to "pop into existence".

No....In pregnancy, 'something' doesn't just pop into existence....no, pregnancy is a lengthy procedure.....approximately 270 days or so....
and pregnancy, being a lengthy procedure, it HAS a DEFINITE BEGINNING.....AND END
a beginning when a human life STARTS....when that first cell starts on its journey of growth and maturity....

We've been through this before so I'll just stop it here....

because this is already way, way over your understanding of biology and science of the human life cycle.....

Yes, we have been through this before and over 50% of those "first cells" spontaneously abort and doctors/scientists know neither why they abort nor do they know if those cells would ever become a human being so to say or even imply all those cells are the start of a human life is shoddy science, to say the least.

What you have difficulty discerning is while all human beings start from a fertilized cell not all fertilized cells are human beings.

I suggest you put down your text book and spend a weekend on a farm. A 12 year old could teach you a thing or two.
 
Your post is the typical "can't see the forest for the trees". As I previously mentioned you have difficulty seeing the big picture.
Actually, my sight is perfectly fine...thank you.

If one is going to classify a fetus as a human being one has to see if the pieces of the puzzle fit, for lack of a better term. Can the definitions and customs and laws which society applies to human beings be applied to a fetus?
You can classify the fetus as a oak tree or a old shoe if you want...its a free country....so far.

The most obvious example is the woman's right to terminate a problem pregnancy. How can anyone justify a person with a defective body taking the life of an innocent human being?
Of course, pinhead....have you ever heard of self defense when your life is threatened or you're in danger of grievous harm...?

Few people believe a fetus should be granted the same rights as any other human being especially regarding the health of the woman and still fewer believe the fetus is equal when it comes to the life of the woman.

Actually, no one I know of anyway


It appears you find a problem with "A hang-nail, a head-ache, unruly hair...anything goes" so I ask, "What should be a go?" A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe? In your estimation what is the life of a human being, here referred to as "fetus", worth?

I've no problems...its settled law as of now. Abortion on demand, any reason or no reason, just as you want

Considering your active participation in abortion threads/discussions surely you've given it due consideration. Perhaps we might find common ground if we take the conversation in that direction.

Actually, we've had our conversation many months ago....thats when I first discovered you were a pinhead, arguing the minutia of cell growth and your ignorance of what occurs during conception and the undeniable state of human life immediately after........so our conversation is long past and I've no desire to go over the same ground again and again....
 
Apple: The most obvious example is the woman's right to terminate a problem pregnancy. How can anyone justify a person with a defective body taking the life of an innocent human being?

Bravo: Of course, pinhead....have you ever heard of self defense when your life is threatened or you're in danger of grievous harm...?

In the vast majority of problem pregnancies the fetus isn't doing anything wrong. Do you kill someone who isn't attacking you?

However, if you feel that's appropriate then if a diabetic requires insulin, lacks money and the pharmacist refuses to let the person take the insulin I suppose the person is justified in killing the pharmacist. After all, the pharmacist is a threat to the diabetic person by preventing them access to insulin. Or is the life of a fetus worth just a little bit less than the life of other human beings?

Actually, we've had our conversation many months ago....thats when I first discovered you were a pinhead, arguing the minutia of cell growth and your ignorance of what occurs during conception and the undeniable state of human life immediately after........so our conversation is long past and I've no desire to go over the same ground again and again....

You just can't bring yourself to answer what a fetus' life is worth, can you? A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe?

I asked you that question before, as well. In fact, I've asked just about everyone who has asserted a fetus is a human being and not one person has offered an answer.

So, please, if you refuse to answer would you be so kind as to ask one of your comrades? At the same time I'd like to know if they believe the value of a fetus' life should be a Federal concern or left up to the individual States. And if you're having a beer and a long conversation you might ask if one doctor makes the final decision or whether a woman has the right to get a second opinion and, if so and the doctors disagree, what procedure should follow?

Is a Grand Jury convened? After all, we are talking about the life of a human being.

What about the "father"? Would he be allowed to petition the court to protect the life of his child? Surely his recently estranged wife/girlfriend can forfeit a foot in order for the fetus....oops, human being... to live.

When I hear anti-abortionists say, "Just strike down Roe V Wade" it's about as well thought out as that of a child saying, "Just write a check" in response to the mother saying she doesn't have the money. Comments not exactly well thought through.

Anyway, while I won't hold my breath waiting for any light you can shed on this I will be around should hell freeze over.
 
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