The Issue of Abortion

It looks like his goal is present a few hundred or a few thousand different scenarios concerning pregnant women and ask us what would happen or should happen in each and every case....from pregnant women with nose bleeds to that old favorite, diabetes.... with of course a problem pharmacist just to add variety.....

Then he wants to know what a fetus' life is worth? To me its worth just a smidgen more that apples life....
A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe? ..Thats quite funny...I hope you don't try to use "saving your toe" and as justification for killing anyone and claim self defense....

Killing, without ample justification is illegal in all states....

I assumed "getting a second or third or even a forth opinion" was just plain common sense for NORMAL people....Strange that never occurred to you

Huh...can having a kid really cause lose of a foot?.....I have two doctors in my immediate family, I'm gonna have to ask....

I'm really sorry for you,
Just what kind of brain trauma were you subjected to in your life?
psychotherapy could be of value for you, get a second opinion though....
 
bravo said:
It looks like his goal is present a few hundred or a few thousand different scenarios concerning pregnant women and ask us what would happen or should happen in each and every case....from pregnant women with nose bleeds to that old favorite, diabetes.... with of course a problem pharmacist just to add variety.....

Then he wants to know what a fetus' life is worth? To me its worth just a smidgen more that apples life....
A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe? ..Thats quite funny...I hope you don't try to use "saving your toe" and as justification for killing anyone and claim self defense....

Killing, without ample justification is illegal in all states....

I assumed "getting a second or third or even a forth opinion" was just plain common sense for NORMAL people....Strange that never occurred to you

Huh...can having a kid really cause lose of a foot?.....I have two doctors in my immediate family, I'm gonna have to ask....

I'm really sorry for you,
Just what kind of brain trauma were you subjected to in your life?
psychotherapy could be of value for you, get a second opinion though....
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Keeping the argument in perspective: Less then 3% of all abortions occur due to rape/incest or life risk to the mother. All other abortions, more than 97%, are for convenience.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
obviously you lack brains if you think I'm going to spend any of my time thinking about your idiotic arguments again....
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Then just tell us what a fetus' life is worth. A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe? Or is your thinking along the lines of "Just write a check, Mom"? (Ref:msg 59)
 
apple0154 said:
Then just tell us what a fetus' life is worth. A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe? Or is your thinking along the lines of "Just write a check, Mom"? (Ref:msg 59)
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When will you tell us how having a baby can cause the loss of a toe... and even more importantly,....which toe ?
 
bravo said:
When will you tell us how having a baby can cause the loss of a toe... and even more importantly,....which toe ?
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the idiot will claim that having a baby will cause blindness.....I expect he might say since a pregnant woman might get an ingrown toenail which gets infected and she dies as a result that we mustn't kill mothers by making them give birth.....
 
bravo said:
It looks like his goal is present a few hundred or a few thousand different scenarios concerning pregnant women and ask us what would happen or should happen in each and every case....from pregnant women with nose bleeds to that old favorite, diabetes.... with of course a problem pharmacist just to add variety.....
Click to expand...

Well, not exactly a few thousand but, yes, I do what to know what degree of control you believe the government should have over the lives of women. Or is it a "play it by ear" set of laws you advocate? A woman's life/health dependent on what influence the father/husband has with the doctor/in the community?

Then he wants to know what a fetus' life is worth? To me its worth just a smidgen more that apples life....
A kidney? Diminished eye sight? An amputated leg? A foot? A toe? ..Thats quite funny...I hope you don't try to use "saving your toe" and as justification for killing anyone and claim self defense....
Click to expand...

Alright! Now we're getting somewhere. We've established a toe isn't sufficient reason to kill a human being. What about a foot? A leg?

Killing, without ample justification is illegal in all states....
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That's precisely the point. I'm trying to establish what anti-abortionists consider "ample justification".

I assumed "getting a second or third or even a forth opinion" was just plain common sense for NORMAL people....Strange that never occurred to you
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But it did occur to me. That's why I asked, in msg 59, what procedure would follow should doctors disagree?

If a woman's doctor recommends abortion due to medical problems will the father of the child be able to request an examination by a doctor of his choosing? Who hears the case? How long will a hearing take? Will the woman have to risk her life waiting for a hearing?

This is called thinking it through. There has to be a procedure in place before laws are changed in order to deal with the consequences of the changes and that's the part anti-abortionists continually avoid. Simply overturning Roe V Wade would result in chaos and possible death/grave harm to women.

Huh...can having a kid really cause lose of a foot?.....I have two doctors in my immediate family, I'm gonna have to ask....
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Be sure to phrase your question correctly. "If a woman has uncontrolled diabetes resulting from pregnancy is there a possibility she could lose a foot if her diabetes remains uncontrolled for an additional six months while she continues the pregnancy to term?"

It's refreshing to see someone taking this seriously.

I'm really sorry for you,
Just what kind of brain trauma were you subjected to in your life?
psychotherapy could be of value for you, get a second opinion though....
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I suppose it's a result of reading American literature. You know, all this nonsense about being free and stuff. Privacy. Self-determination. Then someone comes along and suggests a woman should be forced to bear a child she does not want. It's difficult to imagine a greater degree of invasion of privacy. Such control over a person's body is nothing less than slavery.

Perhaps it's time to remove all those writings by the Founding Fathers and other "freedom advocates" from libraries. They just contribute to people getting all sorts of crazy ideas.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
the idiot will claim that having a baby will cause blindness.....I expect he might say since a pregnant woman might get an ingrown toenail which gets infected and she dies as a result that we mustn't kill mothers by making them give birth.....
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It's obvious you know nothing about problem pregnancies and the resulting illnesses and possible damages to a woman's body. Why you wish to parade your ignorance for all to witness is a mystery to me.
 
apple0154 said:
Then someone comes along and suggests a woman should be forced to bear a child she does not want.
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Here is the crux of the proabortionist philosophy. Sheer and total egocentrism. The life of another human being does not count because they DO NOT WANT IT. It's all about the self. Deny the humanity of the unborn because they are not wanted. Ignore proven science because they do not want it.

With such a philosophy, it is little wonder they must deny proven science to propagate the lie that the unborn are not really human.
 
Good Luck said:
Here is the crux of the proabortionist philosophy. Sheer and total egocentrism. The life of another human being does not count because they DO NOT WANT IT. It's all about the self. Deny the humanity of the unborn because they are not wanted. Ignore proven science because they do not want it.

With such a philosophy, it is little wonder they must deny proven science to propagate the lie that the unborn are not really human.
Click to expand...

That's a fairly one-dimensional & biased view of the considerations many women go through as they arrive at a decision to terminate a pregnancy.

Surely, there are some who just see it as no more than a form of birth control. But there are plenty who do not feel they are ready to bring a child into the world - it's not just for themselves that they abort. They may not want to bring a child into the world for a variety of reasons, not all of which have to do with "self."

And the science of it is that a fetus is reliant upon the body of the mother, and is not viable or sentient at certain stages in the pregnancy, and that control of our own body is one of the most inalienable freedoms we can have.
 
Ice Dancer said:
Keeping the argument in perspective: Less then 3% of all abortions occur due to rape/incest or life risk to the mother. All other abortions, more than 97%, are for convenience.
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We're just playing with Apple the Pinhead..

Its pointless to have a serious conversation with him....he will keep changing the scenarios with more and more absurd and bizarre conditions until you let him "get his nose under the tent" so to speak...
The law already gives us under what circumstances we can take the life another but that won't deter the pinheads from demanding YOU place YOUR value on a humans life...
Then we've already heard that "all human life starts with the fertilized egg"
but "not all fertilized eggs are humans"....go figure.
Or maybe he thinks it takes at least 10 seconds after fertilization to become a human, or 10 minutes, or 10 hours...who knows what this pinhead thinks, or cares.
He didn't tell us what they were in the interim,....maybe they were worms or ducks or cats or bats... but something other than human.
=========================================

Now for some irrelevant, and superfluous information....

About .01% of women in the US die in childbirth and causes range from C-sections, to complications from anesthesia, infections, blood clots to obesity(and complications from obesity).
In other words, the same complications that arise from EVERY operation and not really particular to childbirth....
So you need no reason to have an abortion other then "I'm want one"....although the risk of getting killed in a car getting to the hospital was probably 10x higher...

The point is, getting out of bed in the morning has risks, so stay in bed.
 
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Onceler said:
That's a fairly one-dimensional & biased view of the considerations many women go through as they arrive at a decision to terminate a pregnancy.

Surely, there are some who just see it as no more than a form of birth control. But there are plenty who do not feel they are ready to bring a child into the world - it's not just for themselves that they abort. They may not want to bring a child into the world for a variety of reasons, not all of which have to do with "self."

And the science of it is that a fetus is reliant upon the body of the mother, and is not viable or sentient at certain stages in the pregnancy,

Absolutely true, irrelevant but true....

and that control of our own body is one of the most inalienable freedoms we can have.
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and control of our own body is one of the most inalienable freedoms we can have....
UNTIL that control you have over your own body has a profound, final, and sometimes fatal effect on anothers life....
 
bravo said:
and control of our own body is one of the most inalienable freedoms we can have....
UNTIL that control you have over your own body has a profound, final, and sometimes fatal effect on anothers life....
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Sorry - the majority doesn't agree with you on that one. Neither do the courts.

Abortion will never be illegal; it's not murder.
 
Onceler said:
Sorry - the majority doesn't agree with you on that one. Neither do the courts.

Abortion will never be illegal; it's not murder.
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Well, next time you're at the beach, piss on some suntanners face and explain to him how its your body and you have an inalienable freedom of control over it....and its effect on his life is irrelevant.
Explain that to the cop that stops you for DUI....after all, its your body

Abortion will probably never be illegal...and that fact means its not murder, words have meanings.....but it is killing another human being in its early stage of life....
 
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Onceler said:
Sorry - the majority doesn't agree with you on that one. Neither do the courts.

Abortion will never be illegal; it's not murder.
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Actually the majority of Americans ARE against abortion as it is is practiced. Abortion is not "technically" murder because murder is a legal term. That is not to say however that medical abortion for convenience sake is not abhorent and an illegitimate freedom granted by the courts.

Abortion as we know it today used to be illegal and could very well be illegal again...and then presto magic it will be murder again~
 
Onceler said:
Sorry - the majority doesn't agree with you on that one. Neither do the courts.
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There was a time when the majority agreed that enslaving Blacks was acceptable. There was a time when killing my people out-of-hand was supported by the majority. In both cases the courts backed them up.

CLUE: The majority is not always right.

Onceler said:
Abortion will never be illegal; it's not murder.
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Gee, how profound. Of course it is not murder. Murder is, by definition, unlawful homicide; so since abortion is legal, it cannot be murder.

Of course, there was a time when killing Native Americans was not murder either. Would you have supported that back then, since the majority supported it? The biggest moral coward in existence is one who hides behind majority opinion to support the immoral.

One thing you cannot get away from (unless you lie and ignore established and proven science) abortion IS homicide. To date, it has been kept legal because of lies and a legal system that still claims the immoral right to disassociate desired groups of humans from protection of their human rights. (How labeling the unborn as not human is any different than labeling any other group of humans as "not human" based on a selected attribute of the targeted group is beyond me, but liberals are experts at double standards and hypocrisy.)
 
Onceler said:
Surely, there are some who just see it as no more than a form of birth control. But there are plenty who do not feel they are ready to bring a child into the world - it's not just for themselves that they abort. They may not want to bring a child into the world for a variety of reasons, not all of which have to do with "self."
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One of the saddest defenses of abortion I have ever heard, yet it is brought up repeatedly. The old "kill them for their own good" defense. Death is better than poverty. Etc. etc. etc. Next time you see a homeless person, ask them if death is better than poverty.

There are ways of not bringing children into this world that does not include killing them after they already exist. But typical of the far left philosophy that has corrupted modern liberalism, they want their cake, and eat it, too.
 
Good Luck said:
Here is the crux of the proabortionist philosophy. Sheer and total egocentrism. The life of another human being does not count because they DO NOT WANT IT. It's all about the self. Deny the humanity of the unborn because they are not wanted. Ignore proven science because they do not want it.

With such a philosophy, it is little wonder they must deny proven science to propagate the lie that the unborn are not really human.
Click to expand...

It is not egocentrism. It is refusing to bring a child into the world which would end up being neglected.

A human being does count. That's the point. Before bringing one into the world a person has to be sure they will look after it properly. That's the point.

As for proven science remember that DNA is one way to classify something. It can not determine if something is a human being. It can determine if the sample is human material so, please, let's put this nonsense to rest, once and for all. DNA can not determine if something is a human being.

As an example DNA can and would determine a fertilized chicken egg has the same DNA as a hatched chicken. Are they both chickens? Would you consider placing a chick (recently hatched chicken) in a hot skillet and attempt to scramble it? According to those who ramble on about DNA proving something is a human being maybe they would consider throwing a chick on a hot skillet and attempt to scramble it. That I couldn't tell you. :dunno:
 
Good Luck said:
There was a time when the majority agreed that enslaving Blacks was acceptable. There was a time when killing my people out-of-hand was supported by the majority. In both cases the courts backed them up.

CLUE: The majority is not always right.


Gee, how profound. Of course it is not murder. Murder is, by definition, unlawful homicide; so since abortion is legal, it cannot be murder.

Of course, there was a time when killing Native Americans was not murder either. Would you have supported that back then, since the majority supported it? The biggest moral coward in existence is one who hides behind majority opinion to support the immoral.

One thing you cannot get away from (unless you lie and ignore established and proven science) abortion IS homicide. To date, it has been kept legal because of lies and a legal system that still claims the immoral right to disassociate desired groups of humans from protection of their human rights. (How labeling the unborn as not human is any different than labeling any other group of humans as "not human" based on a selected attribute of the targeted group is beyond me, but liberals are experts at double standards and hypocrisy.)
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That's a very biased, agenda-driven view of why it has been "kept legal." As are your designations of hypocrisy, as usual.

Fact is, in an intelligent, educated society (which I wouldn't attribute to the societies that permitted your strawman of slavery), most people disagree with you. They recognize sentience & viability as more than cursory "excuses" for "killing human beings." They recognize that there are competing interests in the case of abortion - a potential life vs. a person's control over their own body.

In short, they recognize that this is a much more complex, nuanced issue than the idiots who will never have to carry a fetus to term saying "it's homicide!"

Forcing any woman to carry a fetus to term from the moment of conception is, in most eyes, a Draconian measure, and represents a step backward. Roe is a good compromise, and a good decision, that takes issues of sentience & viability into consideration.
 
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