The Issue of Abortion

[PostmodernProphet]

reading apple's posts makes me sympathize with those who kill abortionists......

 

[NOVA]

What does 2010 have to do with it? Do you think people a hundred years ago or a thousand years ago were not aware of development?

So, what has changed? People two thousand years ago were aware of development even if the science wasn't available.

EXACTLY....thats what is mystifying.....people were aware of human development a thousand years ago and here we are today in 2010, and you are wallowing in ignorance....

You think something magical happens when a baby takes its first breath that transforms it from not alive to alive....or is it 20 minutes after that first breath?....Or maybe 20 minutes before that first breath....?

When ...EXACTLY, does this magic occur according to you....?

Ahhhh....never mind....I'm quite finished with you.

 

[Good Luck]

My goodness. You shouldn't become so angry because you have difficulty understanding. My point was the entire contents of the egg, minus the shell, can and is used on farms to make cakes and scrambled eggs. Everything inside the shell is added to the ingredients of a cake so, according to your view, the cake would contain a chicken. Surely you can see the absurdity of what you're suggesting. While the egg may contain chicken DNA but it does not contain a chicken.

Moving on, just as the yolk contains the material that will be used in the development of a chicken the material from a woman, delivered through her blood to the placenta, will result in the development of a baby nine months later, assuming all goes according to plan. Just as there is no chicken inside the egg and there would be no chicken inside any cake made from said egg there is no human being inside the woman.

I'm going to bed now. Whatever you may have read or heard just remember that what you propose means some cakes contain chickens. Take the night to think this through. I'm sure you'll see it differently tomorrow.

What is absurd is your clinging to your lies like a panicked drowning person clings to a piece of sinking jetsam.

However, when I make a cake out of a fertilized egg (such things happen when you farm your own) then, despite your assurance of absurdity, yes, my cake will then contain a tiny chicken embryo. It's not a big deal, and is rarely even noticeable, does not affect the taste or consistency or anything else. But that chicken (in the embryonic stage of development) si in that cake of mine, no matter how you attempt to make it sound ridiculous. (I do draw the line at blood vessels surrounding the yolk - you can too often taste that in the finished product.)

It's probably happened to you, too, and you never noticed. You try to make out like using a one-day-old fertilized egg results in drumsticks hanging out of your pancakes. Well, too bad for you, but you are still caught in your ignorance of basic biology, and your attempt to paint a simple fact as an absurdity does not work.

When a human ovum is successfully penetrated by a spermatozoa, (note, an ovum is significantly different from an egg - another reason your ridiculous "humans are the same as chickens" analogy does not work) it becomes a distinct individual. It is alive by the standards of biological science. It is a unique organism by the standards of biological science. AND it is of the species Homo Sapiens (ie: human) by the standards of biological science. Add all those factors together, you have a living human by all the standards of the science of biology.

You can lie all you want. You can pretend ignorance all you want. (I still do not believe anyone can be as totally ignorant of basic science as you claim to be.) The FACTS are out there for anyone willing to examine them for themselves. All it takes is a visit to the sciences section of your local library. Look it up. It does not matter which biology text you choose - the science of reproduction in mammals is well established. The facts are still the facts, and you are still a pudding brained, shit eating liar.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

You made the following comment:

It is not egocentrism. It is refusing to bring a child into the world which would end up being neglected.

And my response was:

And once more, you appear to be suggesting that every aborted baby would have been neglected.
Your proof please.

You then tried to spin the situation, instead of supplying an answer that connected to the discussion:

Maybe the neglect isn't apparent. Maybe it doesn't happen 100% of the time but when it does it has a lasting effect on the child and the adult the child eventually becomes.

I then asked you to quantify and support your supposition:

Since you're at least finally admitting that such doesn't occur 100% of the time, what percentage can you present and support to show it happening.,

And you then decided to attempt to back pedal and juggle:

Finally admitting? I never stated nor implied it occurred every time.

As for supporting evidence one would have to look back before abortions were legal, 30+ years ago. Today, there is no reason for anyone to bear a child they do not want.

What about those that have been aborted, that would not have been "neglected" and you still haven't provided a single shread of anything to support your "neglect" defense.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

EXACTLY....thats what is mystifying.....people were aware of human development a thousand years ago and here we are today in 2010, and you are wallowing in ignorance....

You think something magical happens when a baby takes its first breath that transforms it from not alive to alive....or is it 20 minutes after that first breath?....Or maybe 20 minutes before that first breath....?

When ...EXACTLY, does this magic occur according to you....?

Ahhhh....never mind....I'm quite finished with you.

Apple believes that there is a baby fairy that at the moment of birth appears and sprikles magical powder on the fetus, that automatically turns it into a human.
Until then, it's nothing.

 

[apple0154]

EXACTLY....thats what is mystifying.....people were aware of human development a thousand years ago and here we are today in 2010, and you are wallowing in ignorance....

You think something magical happens when a baby takes its first breath that transforms it from not alive to alive....or is it 20 minutes after that first breath?....Or maybe 20 minutes before that first breath....?

When ...EXACTLY, does this magic occur according to you....?

But that's just it. There isn't any "magic". It's a process. There is no magic moment (unless you're thinking of Ben E. King and The Drifters).

That said, the first breath starts the closing of a valve in the heart and the direction of blood flow is altered. That results in certain veins no longer being used, atrophying, then becoming cords/anchors to hold organs in place.

Consider, for a moment, if a human being's blood flow changed direction and veins atrophied. The word "calamity" would be appropriate. Furthermore, consider if the environment changed from the current gaseous one to a liquid as when a fetus goes from a liquid environment to a gaseous one. Completely submerge yourself in water and see how you function. Or take a fish out of water and observe how it functions.

Obviously, you are unaware of the changes from fetus to baby. Yours is a case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Do some research. Understand the fundamental changes. While not magic moments they do occur relatively quickly.

 

[apple0154]

What about those that have been aborted, that would not have been "neglected" and you still haven't provided a single shread of anything to support your "neglect" defense.

Do you want support of neglect? Try researching adoption agencies before abortions were legal. Do a research on orphanages in the past and how the children were treated.

There was a documentary on adoption. One lady, I assume in her 50s, described how she and other children would dress up on adoption day and see if they were chosen by prospective couples.

Sort of like a flea market of children. Prospective couples would browse the selection of children and choose one, or none, depending on what caught their fancy.

As children grew older their prospects of adoption decreased. Not only were they scolded for their inability to "close a deal", in other words sell themselves to adopting couples, but were utterly humiliated knowing no one wanted them. And if none of those things destroyed their sense of self-worth there was always physical and sexual abuse, so prevalent in orphanages, that would round out the experience.

That is what happened in the "good old days" before abortion. Of course, today, we hear about couples not being able to adopt because of the shortage of children. Considering there are approximately 1.3 million abortions I wonder how many adoptive parents there are waiting.

What many people forget or just don't know is it's a case of "been there, done that". There is plenty of documentation on orphanages/adoption and how the experience poisoned lives. Check it out.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

obviously it isn't a process in your mind, it's the snip of the umbilical cord that creates a living human being from a dead inert mass of non human cells....a position only possible by a total denial of everything reproductive biology has learned since time began........

 

[apple0154]

Apple believes that there is a baby fairy that at the moment of birth appears and sprikles magical powder on the fetus, that automatically turns it into a human.
Until then, it's nothing.

As opposed to the baby fairy who enters a woman's tummy the moment the guy she brought home puts on his socks and leaves? :eek3:

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Considering there are approximately 1.3 million abortions I wonder how many adoptive parents there are waiting.

What many people forget or just don't know is it's a case of "been there, done that". There is plenty of documentation on orphanages/adoption and how the experience poisoned lives. Check it out.

you know absolutely nothing about orphanages, foster homes and adoption.....there are unadopted children because parents and courts won't acknowledge that their birth parents don't want them or should not be allowed to have them.......children who aren't made available for adoption until they are ten years old.....

not only that, but you fail to take into account that there would be far fewer pregnancies and therefore, children available for adoption once people were faced with a reality of not being able to kill them arbitrarily......

 

[PostmodernProphet]

As opposed to the baby fairy who enters a woman's tummy the moment the guy she brought home puts on his socks and leaves? :eek3:

if a woman didn't take into account the "baby fairy" might show up she shouldn't have invited the guy home in the first place......being able to kill what the "baby fairy" left behind shouldn't be a solution for her stupidity.....

 

[apple0154]

obviously it isn't a process in your mind, it's the snip of the umbilical cord that creates a living human being from a dead inert mass of non human cells....a position only possible by a total denial of everything reproductive biology has learned since time began........

But it is a process and I've repeated that, over and over. We have different classifications or definitions of things as time passes and processes continue.

Other people have tried to use death as an example. Is it when the heart stops? When one stops breathing? Brain activity? Does death occur in a "magic moment"?

From the time we are born we start to die but we do not classify it as such. We do not say a 10 year old is dying and will be dead in another 70 years. If one stated that we would consider them nuts.

The same applies to fetuses and babies. There are demarcations we, as a society, observe. As I mentioned before the most basic concept of human beings is that each one is individual. We are "stand alone" units. We do not share bodies and our individual body belongs to each of us, alone, so the obvious demarcation point is when the fetus is detached from the woman.

Around that point the first breath is taken and other processes are started, as I noted previously, such as the blood flow, etc.

 

[apple0154]

you know absolutely nothing about orphanages, foster homes and adoption.

Oh, please. From news reports to historical records it's not a secret.

there are unadopted children because parents and courts won't acknowledge that their birth parents don't want them or should not be allowed to have them.......children who aren't made available for adoption until they are ten years old.....

So what's your point? Regardless of reasons children suffer. They are institutionalized. Of course, the typical anti-abortionist doesn't give a damn about the child once it's born anyway. Bring it into the world and to hell with it. Let it make it's own way.

not only that, but you fail to take into account that there would be far fewer pregnancies and therefore, children available for adoption once people were faced with a reality of not being able to kill them arbitrarily......

Yea, right. I'm sure people in the 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s and part of the 60s were also aware abortion was not available. It's strange society required orphanages then, isn't it? It's strange some babies/children were not adopted. What went wrong then?

Obviously you know nothing about adoption and orphanages. For God sake educate yourself. You look more foolish with every post.

 

[apple0154]

if a woman didn't take into account the "baby fairy" might show up she shouldn't have invited the guy home in the first place......being able to kill what the "baby fairy" left behind shouldn't be a solution for her stupidity.....

Perhaps the baby fairy should mind it's own business.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

But it is a process and I've repeated that, over and over. We have different classifications or definitions of things as time passes and processes continue.

but you won't recognize the similarity of an unborn child eleven seconds prior to the cutting of the umbilical cord and eleven seconds after.....when does your concept of "process" start.....

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Of course, the typical anti-abortionist doesn't give a damn about the child once it's born anyway. Bring it into the world and to hell with it. Let it make it's own way.

standard lie of the abortion lovers......we do far more than you do to help children....you're mistake is thinking that killing them qualifies as assistance......

Obviously you know nothing about adoption and orphanages. For God sake educate yourself. You look more foolish with every post.

you repeatedly demonstrate a lack of knowledge.....not only about adoption, but about reproductive biology, abortion and life in general....I'm not going to talk to you about educating yourself, because by now it's obvious that your ignorance is willful...we've already provided you with enough to educate yourself if you were willing to learn......you are a hopeless example of a dishonest liberal....

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Perhaps the baby fairy should mind it's own business.

yeah, the damned kid should have known better than to conceive itself in the womb of a baby killer....

 

[NOVA]

But that's just it. There isn't any "magic". It's a process. There is no magic moment (unless you're thinking of Ben E. King and The Drifters).

That said, the first breath starts the closing of a valve in the heart and the direction of blood flow is altered. That results in certain veins no longer being used, atrophying, then becoming cords/anchors to hold organs in place.

Consider, for a moment, if a human being's blood flow changed direction and veins atrophied. The word "calamity" would be appropriate. Furthermore, consider if the environment changed from the current gaseous one to a liquid as when a fetus goes from a liquid environment to a gaseous one. Completely submerge yourself in water and see how you function. Or take a fish out of water and observe how it functions.

Obviously, you are unaware of the changes from fetus to baby. Yours is a case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Do some research. Understand the fundamental changes. While not magic moments they do occur relatively quickly.

I was done, but this is just too good to pass up....

Is everyone reading this....this is the moment we've been waiting for...
THE MAGIC MOMENT.....(or is it The Magic Process?)

Its the closing of a valve in the heart and altered blood flow.
Which in turn, results in certain veins no longer being used, becoming cords/anchors to hold organs in place.

And presto chango, hocus pocus, abracadabra you are now ALIVE as opposed to what you were before,...........which must be NOT ALIVE,.....................fuckin' DEAD......

I'm so glad we have a real scientist on board to help us understand these mysteries....
DEAD TO ALIVE just by closing a valve....it just takes your breath away.......I give up.....

 

[apple0154]

you repeatedly demonstrate a lack of knowledge.....not only about adoption, but about reproductive biology, abortion and life in general....I'm not going to talk to you about educating yourself, because by now it's obvious that your ignorance is willful...we've already provided you with enough to educate yourself if you were willing to learn......you are a hopeless example of a dishonest liberal....

You have no idea what orphanages were like in the past when abortion was illegal. It appears you know little about anything regarding the situation before abortion was legal.

Rather than tell us how things should be, study history. You'll find out how things were.

 

[apple0154]

I was done, but this is just too good to pass up....

Is everyone reading this....this is the moment we've been waiting for...
THE MAGIC MOMENT.....(or is it The Magic Process?)

Its the closing of a valve in the heart and altered blood flow.
Which in turn, results in certain veins no longer being used, becoming cords/anchors to hold organs in place.

And presto chango, hocus pocus, abracadabra you are now ALIVE as opposed to what you were before,...........which must be NOT ALIVE,.....................fuckin' DEAD......

I'm so glad we have a real scientist on board to help us understand these mysteries....
DEAD TO ALIVE just by closing a valve....it just takes your breath away.......I give up.....

Thanks for the acknowledgment but you're much too modest. The idea a fertilized cell, so small it can not be seen by the naked eye, is supposedly a human being really gets the comedy prize.

I suppose the "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" should be replaced with "how many human beings can dance on the head of a pin?"

Come to think of it, "How many, Bravo?" You like to think of yourself as being science knowledgeable so a ball park figure shouldn't be a problem.

I'll be waiting. Well, so to speak. I'm going out for dinner but I'll be back later.

P.S. Considering it's getting close to Christmas may I suggest changing the blue font for green? It will go better with the red. Just saying....