The Issue of Abortion

Apple, I'm glad you don't treat me as nicely as you do those babies, else I'd have to call you a different a-name. Or I'd already be dead...
 
Threedee said:
Apple, I'm glad you don't treat me as nicely as you do those babies, else I'd have to call you a different a-name. Or I'd already be dead...
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Well, anyone who supports the idea that a cell or two should, in any way, have the right to interfere with the body of their wife or girlfriend or sister or any other female is a misogynist of the worst kind. I find it truly abhorrent, not to mention barbaric.
 
apple0154 said:
You have no idea what orphanages were like in the past when abortion was illegal. It appears you know little about anything regarding the situation before abortion was legal.

Rather than tell us how things should be, study history. You'll find out how things were.
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fool.....look at what adoption is like in modern society, not the 1800s.....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
fool.....look at what adoption is like in modern society, not the 1800s.....
Click to expand...

Fool, look at what adoption was like prior to Roe V Wade. Today, people rant about there not being enough children to adopt. That's because of available abortion. Remove abortion and we'll return to the "children's flea market", as I noted previously.

Sorry, the days of children being institutionalized, displayed like unwanted animals at a shelter, are over.
 
apple0154 said:
Fool, look at what adoption was like prior to Roe V Wade. Today, people rant about there not being enough children to adopt. That's because of available abortion. Remove abortion and we'll return to the "children's flea market", as I noted previously.

Sorry, the days of children being institutionalized, displayed like unwanted animals at a shelter, are over.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's much better to just murder them instead. Especially since we can do it without hearing the screams. We just have to convince enough really stupid people, that they aren't human life, and we can keep doing that with a clear conscience. Got it!
 
apple0154 said:
I suppose as many as your fantasy can entertain. After all, if one can imagine a human being is a cell or two living in someone's body then the sky's the limit. :)
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http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

Life Begins at Fertilization
The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:



"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]
 
Dixie said:
Yeah, it's much better to just murder them instead. Especially since we can do it without hearing the screams. We just have to convince enough really stupid people, that they aren't human life, and we can keep doing that with a clear conscience. Got it!
Click to expand...

Dixie, Dixie, Dixie. There is no murder as there is no human being.
 
apple0154 said:
Dixie, Dixie, Dixie. There is no murder as there is no human being.
Click to expand...

Read what Princeton University says above, it seems the scientists and biologists disagree with you on that. Now you can say there is no human being... but I can say a dollar is a million dollars, and I am a millionaire because I have a dollar in my pocket. People can say whatever they want to, it doesn't make it true.
 
Dixie said:
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....

"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.

"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]
Click to expand...

I wonder if we'll be lucky enough to see Lee Silver frozen.

Frozen. Thawed out. Living in a liquid environment......By golly, those human beings sure are versatile creatures.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Dixie said:
http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

Life Begins at Fertilization
The following references illustrate the fact that a new human embryo, the starting point for a human life, comes into existence with the formation of the one-celled zygote:



"Development of the embryo begins at Stage 1 when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote."
[England, Marjorie A. Life Before Birth. 2nd ed. England: Mosby-Wolfe, 1996, p.31]


"Human development begins after the union of male and female gametes or germ cells during a process known as fertilization (conception).
"Fertilization is a sequence of events that begins with the contact of a sperm (spermatozoon) with a secondary oocyte (ovum) and ends with the fusion of their pronuclei (the haploid nuclei of the sperm and ovum) and the mingling of their chromosomes to form a new cell. This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being."
[Moore, Keith L. Essentials of Human Embryology. Toronto: B.C. Decker Inc, 1988, p.2]


"Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
[Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


"Embryo: An organism in the earliest stage of development; in a man, from the time of conception to the end of the second month in the uterus."
[Dox, Ida G. et al. The Harper Collins Illustrated Medical Dictionary. New York: Harper Perennial, 1993, p. 146]


"Embryo: The early developing fertilized egg that is growing into another individual of the species. In man the term 'embryo' is usually restricted to the period of development from fertilization until the end of the eighth week of pregnancy."
[Walters, William and Singer, Peter (eds.). Test-Tube Babies. Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 1982, p. 160]


"The development of a human being begins with fertilization, a process by which two highly specialized cells, the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female, unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Langman, Jan. Medical Embryology. 3rd edition. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1975, p. 3]


"Embryo: The developing individual between the union of the germ cells and the completion of the organs which characterize its body when it becomes a separate organism.... At the moment the sperm cell of the human male meets the ovum of the female and the union results in a fertilized ovum (zygote), a new life has begun.... The term embryo covers the several stages of early development from conception to the ninth or tenth week of life."
[Considine, Douglas (ed.). Van Nostrand's Scientific Encyclopedia. 5th edition. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Company, 1976, p. 943]


"I would say that among most scientists, the word 'embryo' includes the time from after fertilization..."
[Dr. John Eppig, Senior Staff Scientist, Jackson Laboratory (Bar Harbor, Maine) and Member of the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 31]


"The development of a human begins with fertilization, a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote."
[Sadler, T.W. Langman's Medical Embryology. 7th edition. Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins 1995, p. 3]


"The question came up of what is an embryo, when does an embryo exist, when does it occur. I think, as you know, that in development, life is a continuum.... But I think one of the useful definitions that has come out, especially from Germany, has been the stage at which these two nuclei [from sperm and egg] come together and the membranes between the two break down."
[Jonathan Van Blerkom of University of Colorado, expert witness on human embryology before the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel -- Panel Transcript, February 2, 1994, p. 63]


"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm (Gr. zyg tos, yoked together), represents the beginning of a human being. The common expression 'fertilized ovum' refers to the zygote."
[Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1]


"The chromosomes of the oocyte and sperm are...respectively enclosed within female and male pronuclei. These pronuclei fuse with each other to produce the single, diploid, 2N nucleus of the fertilized zygote. This moment of zygote formation may be taken as the beginning or zero time point of embryonic development."
[Larsen, William J. Human Embryology. 2nd edition. New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997, p. 17]


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.... The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. The embryo now exists as a genetic unity."
[O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29. This textbook lists "pre-embryo" among "discarded and replaced terms" in modern embryology, describing it as "ill-defined and inaccurate" (p. 12}]


"Almost all higher animals start their lives from a single cell, the fertilized ovum (zygote)... The time of fertilization represents the starting point in the life history, or ontogeny, of the individual."
[Carlson, Bruce M. Patten's Foundations of Embryology. 6th edition. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1996, p. 3]


"[A]nimal biologists use the term embryo to describe the single cell stage, the two-cell stage, and all subsequent stages up until a time when recognizable humanlike limbs and facial features begin to appear between six to eight weeks after fertilization....
"[A] number of specialists working in the field of human reproduction have suggested that we stop using the word embryo to describe the developing entity that exists for the first two weeks after fertilization. In its place, they proposed the term pre-embryo....
"I'll let you in on a secret. The term pre-embryo has been embraced wholeheartedly by IVF practitioners for reasons that are political, not scientific. The new term is used to provide the illusion that there is something profoundly different between what we nonmedical biologists still call a six-day-old embryo and what we and everyone else call a sixteen-day-old embryo.
"The term pre-embryo is useful in the political arena -- where decisions are made about whether to allow early embryo (now called pre-embryo) experimentation -- as well as in the confines of a doctor's office, where it can be used to allay moral concerns that might be expressed by IVF patients. 'Don't worry,' a doctor might say, 'it's only pre-embryos that we're manipulating or freezing. They won't turn into real human embryos until after we've put them back into your body.'"
[Silver, Lee M. Remaking Eden: Cloning and Beyond in a Brave New World. New York: Avon Books, 1997, p. 39]
Click to expand...
 
apple0154 said:
I wonder if we'll be lucky enough to see Lee Silver frozen.

Frozen. Thawed out. Living in a liquid environment......By golly, those human beings sure are versatile creatures.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Click to expand...

So if something can be frozen, it is not a human being?
 
apple0154 said:
Fool, look at what adoption was like prior to Roe V Wade. Today, people rant about there not being enough children to adopt. That's because of available abortion. Remove abortion and we'll return to the "children's flea market", as I noted previously.

Sorry, the days of children being institutionalized, displayed like unwanted animals at a shelter, are over.
Click to expand...

what are you going on about.......is your understanding of adoption framed by watching Orphan Annie?.....a clue, that was a musical, not a documentary.....
 
PostmodernProphet said:
what are you going on about.......is your understanding of adoption framed by watching Orphan Annie?.....a clue, that was a musical, not a documentary.....
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention Orphan Annie. (Excerpt) By the late 1920s, the strip had taken on a more adult and adventurous feel with Annie coming across killers, gangsters, spies and saboteurs. It was around this time that Gray, whose politics seem to have been either conservative or libertarian with a decided populist streak, introduced some of his more controversial storylines........ His hatred of labor unions was dramatized in the 1935 story "Eonite". Other targets were the New Deal and communism. (End)
Little Orphan Annie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png

That aside, do some research on orphanages. From basic neglect to sexual abuse to beatings they were no place for children.

Those days are over.
 
Dixie said:
So if something can be frozen, it is not a human being?
Click to expand...

Dixie, Dixie, Dixie. Human beings can not be completely frozen, then thawed, then continue on with life.

Not sure if I mentioned this before but with winter coming do you have a warm hat?
 
apple0154 said:
Dixie, Dixie, Dixie. Human beings can not be completely frozen, then thawed, then continue on with life.

Not sure if I mentioned this before but with winter coming do you have a warm hat?
Click to expand...

Apple, apple, apple... Obviously, human beings CAN be frozen when they are still in the early embryonic state, because they often are. Look moron, I posted a whole list of scientific documentation stating that human life begins at fertilization. You've posted no such list to counter that. So at this point, you are way behind in the debate. Unless you can find me some credible scientists who say life begins at some other point in time, then we have to go with what I posted. Arguments can be made about the viability of the human life, or whether the human being has salience, cognition, a heartbeat, brain activity... but we can't argue whether it is a human life.
 
apple0154 said:
Funny you should mention Orphan Annie. (Excerpt) By the late 1920s, the strip had taken on a more adult and adventurous feel with Annie coming across killers, gangsters, spies and saboteurs. It was around this time that Gray, whose politics seem to have been either conservative or libertarian with a decided populist streak, introduced some of his more controversial storylines........ His hatred of labor unions was dramatized in the 1935 story "Eonite". Other targets were the New Deal and communism. (End)
Little Orphan Annie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That aside, do some research on orphanages. From basic neglect to sexual abuse to beatings they were no place for children.

Those days are over.
Click to expand...

so you admit your knowledge of adoption is limited to Orphan Annie cartoons?.....
 
You shouldn't give this moron the courtesy of a response on the type of bullshit he posts...Orphanages, adoption, abuse, poverty, etc....are all far off the topic of discussion....
None of this has anything to do with abortion....any fuckin' clown that preaches its ok to kill babies to save them from poverty or abuse is plainly mentally defective. Why bother to seriously discuss anything with a psycho.
 
apple0154 said:
Do you want support of neglect? Try researching adoption agencies before abortions were legal. Do a research on orphanages in the past and how the children were treated.

There was a documentary on adoption. One lady, I assume in her 50s, described how she and other children would dress up on adoption day and see if they were chosen by prospective couples.

Sort of like a flea market of children. Prospective couples would browse the selection of children and choose one, or none, depending on what caught their fancy.

As children grew older their prospects of adoption decreased. Not only were they scolded for their inability to "close a deal", in other words sell themselves to adopting couples, but were utterly humiliated knowing no one wanted them. And if none of those things destroyed their sense of self-worth there was always physical and sexual abuse, so prevalent in orphanages, that would round out the experience.

That is what happened in the "good old days" before abortion. Of course, today, we hear about couples not being able to adopt because of the shortage of children. Considering there are approximately 1.3 million abortions I wonder how many adoptive parents there are waiting.

What many people forget or just don't know is it's a case of "been there, done that". There is plenty of documentation on orphanages/adoption and how the experience poisoned lives. Check it out.
Click to expand...

That was THEN and this is NOW, so please show the data that supports your assertion that aborted children would be neglected if they were allowed to live.
 
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