The main issue with Christianity

[gfm7175]

Not about guns. My goodness! You gun obsessives are crazy.

To re-word my response in a way that even the BidenPresident's of this forum can (hopefully) understand it:

You suggested the position that God is responsible for sin because he created the world.

That line of thinking is akin to asserting that Colt is responsible for gun related homicides because Colt manufactured the gun.

 

[BidenPresident]

To re-word my response in a way that even the BidenPresident's of this forum can (hopefully) understand it:

You suggested the position that God is responsible for sin because he created the world.

That line of thinking is akin to asserting that Colt is responsible for gun related homicides because Colt manufactured the gun.

I think you are insane.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

To re-word my response in a way that even the BidenPresident's of this forum can (hopefully) understand it:

You suggested the position that God is responsible for sin because he created the world.

That line of thinking is akin to asserting that Colt is responsible for gun related homicides because Colt manufactured the gun.

Here are the differences:

God created EVERYTHING. Even the concept of sin. He chose to make man imperfect.

Colt, on the other hand is NOT that being than which none greater can be conceived. Colt is not outside of all space and time and all powerful creators.

Just a bit of clarification.

 

[BidenPresident]

Here are the differences:

God created EVERYTHING. Even the concept of sin. He chose to make man imperfect.

Colt, on the other hand is NOT that being than which none greater can be conceived. Colt is not outside of all space and time and all powerful creators.

Just a bit of clarification.

And they wonder why we call them gun nuts.

 

[gfm7175]

Okay...so they are going to be saved if they are willing to trust.

Yes. Per the Bible, all who trust in Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior will be saved. More details about how one can be saved can be found in the book of Romans.

They are going to be saved from Satan...who's existence, like that of the god, is just a blind guess.

Wow.

My response to you was not meant for us to bicker about whether Satan exists or whether God exists. It was meant to be direct responses to your questions about Christian belief per my understanding of what the Bible says. All of my responses to you are thus based on the underlying assumption that the Bible is the truth. This particular response of yours moves us away from that baseline assumption and is thus a distraction at best.

But yes, the belief is that they will be saved from Satan / sin.

And from sin...which is merely something they do that offends their god.
Their god is offended by damn near everything...and they are going to be "saved" from that.

Yes, that's one way to look at it.

Wouldn't it be easier if the god just weren't offended by so much?

That's definitely one solution, but "easier" doesn't necessarily mean "better", and determining which solution is the better solution really depends on how one approaches the definition of sin.

To me, the topic of sin is more of a "quality control" and a "trust" issue than it is a "personal preference" issue. If viewing sin from a "quality control / trust" perspective, then any sin that a person commits thereby renders that person "blemished" and "untrustworthy". IOW, what rational man, who desires to be loved by his wife and be her "one and only", is going to trust her and be happy/satisfied living with her when she regularly cheats on him?

To ask a similar question: Would it be better for a person to live eternally in a state of "sin-induced blemish" or would it be better for a person to live eternally in a state of "restored perfection"?

Jesus H. Christ. You think that god is "perfect in thoughts, words, and actions?

You gotta be kidding.

Yes, I think that God has an immutably perfect nature.

If the god were a human...it would be institutionalized. EVERYTHING offends it.

... except for all the things which are pleasing in God's eyes, of course...

The god you are talking about is one of the worst gods ever dreamed up by humans.

Hmmmmm...

Much better the Greek, Roman or Norse gods.

Whatever floats your boat.

Why is it an insult to have a god who requires its son to be tortured and killed before it will forgive humans for being human?

You gotta be kidding again.

How can humanity be fully atoned for all of their sins without the death of an innocent unblemished human being taking place, serving as a full substitute/payment for all those people and their sins?

Otherwise, that insurmountable amount of sin is not paid for.

 

[gfm7175]

I think a "creator" created the world. But that we're all the creator, essentially. I don't see the separation, or the idea of a separate God who "looks over us." It's all just us.

If anyone is interested.

Do you think that "we all" created the Earth, or just what is within it? What about the sun/moon/stars and the rest of the universe?

 

[gfm7175]

Is God a creator of the world? I certainly did not create the world.

I believe you.

 

[gfm7175]

Well, we weren't humans at the time.

We were part of the collective - God, the Tao, Source. Whatever anyone wants to call it.

As that, we created the physical plane/universe, so we could experience everything there is to experience on this plane & in life. There are likely an infinite # of universes, too (in my POV). I think the physics of how "we" did it can't possibly be known or discovered, since it didn't happen on this plane or w/ our set of physical laws.

It's kind of all about finding our way back. Learning all of the lessons that can possibly be learned. People who believe what I believe tend to say this is a classroom, not a courtroom.

And I don't really think some of my views are incompatible w/ some of the views of Christianity. I think it was actually the message Christ was trying to spread, but it changed a bit when it went through translations. We think Jesus is the Son of God, and that he is the light - but in my POV, I think he was saying we're all sons of God, and we're all the light.

Is there a reason why I don't have any memory of this "time before being a human"?

 

[gfm7175]

Here are the differences:

God created EVERYTHING. Even the concept of sin. He chose to make man imperfect.

Colt, on the other hand is NOT that being than which none greater can be conceived. Colt is not outside of all space and time and all powerful creators.

Just a bit of clarification.

I agree that Colt is not God, but the line of reasoning is the same.

God is at fault for sin because he manufactured the human.

Colt is at fault for "gun violence" because they manufactured the gun.

 

[gfm7175]

I think you are insane.

You think?

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I agree that Colt is not God, but the line of reasoning is the same.

No it isn't. It can't be. Only God is God. Sorry if you are confused. If you think God is only as powerful as a gun manufacturer then I think you missed a lot of Sunday School.

God is at fault for sin because he manufactured the human.

God made sin, God made humans, God made humans capable of sin.

Colt is at fault for "gun violence" because they manufactured the gun.

Not so much. Colt didn't create violence. (Again, Colt is NOT GOD. I can't stress that enough. If you can't differentiate between God and a Gun Manufacturer then your faith must be very very interesting).

 

[BartenderElite]

Is there a reason why I don't have any memory of this "time before being a human"?

The thought is that it would defeat the purpose of being here if we remembered who we really are. We need the separation to learn all of the things we came here to learn.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Yes. Per the Bible, all who trust in Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior will be saved. More details about how one can be saved can be found in the book of Romans.


My response to you was not meant for us to bicker about whether Satan exists or whether God exists. It was meant to be direct responses to your questions about Christian belief per my understanding of what the Bible says. All of my responses to you are thus based on the underlying assumption that the Bible is the truth. This particular response of yours moves us away from that baseline assumption and is thus a distraction at best.

But yes, the belief is that they will be saved from Satan / sin.


Yes, that's one way to look at it.


That's definitely one solution, but "easier" doesn't necessarily mean "better", and determining which solution is the better solution really depends on how one approaches the definition of sin.

To me, the topic of sin is more of a "quality control" and a "trust" issue than it is a "personal preference" issue. If viewing sin from a "quality control / trust" perspective, then any sin that a person commits thereby renders that person "blemished" and "untrustworthy". IOW, what rational man, who desires to be loved by his wife and be her "one and only", is going to trust her and be happy/satisfied living with her when she regularly cheats on him?

To ask a similar question: Would it be better for a person to live eternally in a state of "sin-induced blemish" or would it be better for a person to live eternally in a state of "restored perfection"?


Yes, I think that God has an immutably perfect nature.


... except for all the things which are pleasing in God's eyes, of course...


Hmmmmm...


Whatever floats your boat.


How can humanity be fully atoned for all of their sins without the death of an innocent unblemished human being taking place, serving as a full substitute/payment for all those people and their sins?

Otherwise, that insurmountable amount of sin is not paid for.

Lemme deal with just that last item.

How?

The god could just say, "Okay, I forgive you all of your sins. You don't have to bother to torture and kill my son. I was only kidding about that. Anyway, I was being a shit-head for being offended by all the stuff you do. I made you...and I should have done a better job if I really didn't want you to do it."

You, and these laughable responses are pathetic.

 

[gfm7175]

No it isn't.

Yes, the line of reasoning is the same.

It can't be.

It most certainly can be, and it is.

Only God is God.

Correct.

Sorry if you are confused.

I'm not. The confusion belongs to you.

If you think God is only as powerful as a gun manufacturer then I think you missed a lot of Sunday School.

I don't make claim to that premise, so this is moot.

God made sin,

Incorrect. To explain why this claim is incorrect is to dive into a deeper discussion:

This discussion gets into one of numerous instances throughout Christian dogma in which an apparent contradiction is at hand. On the one hand, the Bible says that God is the sovereign creator of all things (which would include sin). On the other hand, the Bible says that everything that God created was "good" and that God abhors sin (thus God didn't create sin, which he abhors). If God didn't create sin, then did Satan create it? If Satan created sin, then sin would be beyond God's control (which also goes against what the Bible says). Hmmmmmm....

The answer to this conundrum is that the question that is being asked is based on an incorrect premise (that "sin is a created thing"). Sin is not something that is "made"/"created" (such as trees and animals). Rather, sin comes about as the result of a chosen rebellious action. Sin is a decision to pervert the good things that God has made.

So, it is incorrect to say that "God made sin". Rather, God permitted sin to come about via his decision to create celestial and earthly beings with free will (IOW, with the ability to hate/rebel against him, to deny his existence, to be indifferent towards him, to be indifferent about his possible existence, to regularly attend church but not truly love/worship him, to fervently love/worship him, etc etc). Allowing for celestial and earthly beings to make such decisions necessarily allows for the possibility of sin to come about.

God made humans, God made humans capable of sin.

This you have correct, but note that this does not mean that God made sin. It means that God allowed for the possibility of sin. Why? Because God wants his creation to desire fellowship with him (not to hate him or to be indifferent or lukewarm towards him), and such desire is impossible without having the free will TO desire (or to despise, or to be indifferent about, etc). Such desire for fellowship is no different than what you and I generally want for ourselves in our relationships with others.

Not so much. Colt didn't create violence.

Correct, but that's exactly what my point is. Just as Colt didn't create violence, God didn't create sin. Blaming Colt for violence is just plain stupid, and so is blaming God for sin.

(Again, Colt is NOT GOD. I can't stress that enough. If you can't differentiate between God and a Gun Manufacturer then your faith must be very very interesting).

You are stressing that which is completely irrelevant.

 

[gfm7175]

The thought is that it would defeat the purpose of being here if we remembered who we really are. We need the separation to learn all of the things we came here to learn.

Hmmmmm... interesting. Is there some sort of belief about what happens after we die here? (not that we'd have any future awareness of it, by the sounds of it)

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Yes, the line of reasoning is the same.


It most certainly can be, and it is.


Correct.


I'm not. The confusion belongs to you.


I don't make claim to that premise, so this is moot.


Incorrect. To explain why this claim is incorrect is to dive into a deeper discussion:

This discussion gets into one of numerous instances throughout Christian dogma in which an apparent contradiction is at hand. On the one hand, the Bible says that God is the sovereign creator of all things (which would include sin). On the other hand, the Bible says that everything that God created was "good" and that God abhors sin (thus God didn't create sin, which he abhors). If God didn't create sin, then did Satan create it? If Satan created sin, then sin would be beyond God's control (which also goes against what the Bible says). Hmmmmmm....

The answer to this conundrum is that the question that is being asked is based on an incorrect premise (that "sin is a created thing"). Sin is not something that is "made"/"created" (such as trees and animals). Rather, sin comes about as the result of a chosen rebellious action. Sin is a decision to pervert the good things that God has made.

So, it is incorrect to say that "God made sin". Rather, God permitted sin to come about via his decision to create celestial and earthly beings with free will (IOW, with the ability to hate/rebel against him, to deny his existence, to be indifferent towards him, to be indifferent about his possible existence, to regularly attend church but not truly love/worship him, to fervently love/worship him, etc etc). Allowing for celestial and earthly beings to make such decisions necessarily allows for the possibility of sin to come about.


This you have correct, but note that this does not mean that God made sin. It means that God allowed for the possibility of sin. Why? Because God wants his creation to desire fellowship with him (not to hate him or to be indifferent or lukewarm towards him), and such desire is impossible without having the free will TO desire (or to despise, or to be indifferent about, etc). Such desire for fellowship is no different than what you and I generally want for ourselves in our relationships with others.


Correct, but that's exactly what my point is. Just as Colt didn't create violence, God didn't create sin. Blaming Colt for violence is just plain stupid, and so is blaming God for sin.


You are stressing that which is completely irrelevant.

There's really only one response to your reasoning: it is the same as that applied to Guanilo's critique of the Ontological Argument. It stands there and it stands against your point as well.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[gfm7175]

How can humanity be fully atoned for all of their sins without the death of an innocent unblemished human being taking place, serving as a full substitute/payment for all those people and their sins?

Otherwise, that insurmountable amount of sin is not paid for.

Lemme deal with just that last item.

How?

The god could just say, "Okay, I forgive you all of your sins. You don't have to bother to torture and kill my son. I was only kidding about that. Anyway, I was being a shit-head for being offended by all the stuff you do. I made you...and I should have done a better job if I really didn't want you to do it."

That's definitely an option, but not one that would work per what the Bible teaches since, per your suggestion, sin would not be punished in any way, and that would conflict with God's nature of being just (IOW, he has to punish evil).

Your suggestion is akin to a judge letting a bank robber off the hook without any sort of punishment for his crime. How does the victim receive satisfaction in THAT?

You, and these laughable responses are pathetic.

Why all of the insults towards me? You wanted to hold a respectable and intelligent conversation about these matters, right?

 

[gfm7175]

There's really only one response to your reasoning: it is the same as that applied to Guanilo's critique of the Ontological Argument. It stands there and it stands against your point as well.

I'll leave it at that.

You're not saying anything of meaning here. You're just slithering away into the shadows...

 

[Ross Dolan]

Yes, the line of reasoning is the same.


It most certainly can be, and it is.


Correct.


I'm not. The confusion belongs to you.


I don't make claim to that premise, so this is moot.


Incorrect. To explain why this claim is incorrect is to dive into a deeper discussion:

This discussion gets into one of numerous instances throughout Christian dogma in which an apparent contradiction is at hand. On the one hand, the Bible says that God is the sovereign creator of all things (which would include sin). On the other hand, the Bible says that everything that God created was "good" and that God abhors sin (thus God didn't create sin, which he abhors). If God didn't create sin, then did Satan create it? If Satan created sin, then sin would be beyond God's control (which also goes against what the Bible says). Hmmmmmm....

The answer to this conundrum is that the question that is being asked is based on an incorrect premise (that "sin is a created thing"). Sin is not something that is "made"/"created" (such as trees and animals). Rather, sin comes about as the result of a chosen rebellious action. Sin is a decision to pervert the good things that God has made.

So, it is incorrect to say that "God made sin". Rather, God permitted sin to come about via his decision to create celestial and earthly beings with free will (IOW, with the ability to hate/rebel against him, to deny his existence, to be indifferent towards him, to be indifferent about his possible existence, to regularly attend church but not truly love/worship him, to fervently love/worship him, etc etc). Allowing for celestial and earthly beings to make such decisions necessarily allows for the possibility of sin to come about.


This you have correct, but note that this does not mean that God made sin. It means that God allowed for the possibility of sin. Why? Because God wants his creation to desire fellowship with him (not to hate him or to be indifferent or lukewarm towards him), and such desire is impossible without having the free will TO desire (or to despise, or to be indifferent about, etc). Such desire for fellowship is no different than what you and I generally want for ourselves in our relationships with others.


Correct, but that's exactly what my point is. Just as Colt didn't create violence, God didn't create sin. Blaming Colt for violence is just plain stupid, and so is blaming God for sin.


You are stressing that which is completely irrelevant.

You people are nuts.

All sin is...is something that a human does that offends their god.

THAT IS WHAT SIN IS.

It is something that offends your gods.

If your gods are not offended by what you do...it is not a sin.

Sucking up to the god..."worshiping" the god...kissing the god's ass...IS NOT A SIN.

Yanking your dick is only a sin because it offends your gods. Killing other humans is only a sin when it offends your gods. If the killing is done because your gods want you to do it and are not offended...IT IS NOT A SIN.

When you write or quote something like, "God abhors sin"...all you are saying is that your gods do not want to be offended by what you do...but unfortunately, the god is offended by damn near everything you do other than to worship them.

Wake the hell up. Nothing whatever is wrong with guessing there are gods, but for chrissake, guess up some gods that make sense.

 

[Ross Dolan]

That's definitely an option, but not one that would work per what the Bible teaches since, per your suggestion, sin would not be punished in any way, and that would conflict with God's nature of being just (IOW, he has to punish evil).

Your gods do not punish evil. Your gods punish people who offend them. Your gods are not just...they are narcissists...and want to be adored; they are offended when someone does anything other than adore them.

Your suggestion is akin to a judge letting a bank robber off the hook without any sort of punishment for his crime. How does the victim receive satisfaction in THAT?


Why all of the insults towards me? You wanted to hold a respectable and intelligent conversation about these matters, right?

You want to adore your gods, gfm...so do it. If you try to justify that adoration, you make a fool of yourself...AND YOU MAKE A FOOL OF ANY GOD THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS TO EXIST.

IF THERE IS A GOD, SURELY THERE IS NO GREATER INSULT THAN HUMANS SUPPOSING THAT GOD IS LIKE THE GODS CURRENTLY BEING WORSHIPED.