The main issue with Christianity

Frank Apisa said:
I am not poorly educated. You may be bothered by the fact that I call blind guesswork...blind guesswork, but that is your problem. Not mine.
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I see. Everything is opinion, therefore there is nothing to discuss. That is anti-intellectual.

If someone thinks God is a trinity of Moe, Larry, and Curly, that is as good as any other opinion.
 
BidenPresident said:
I see. Everything is opinion, therefore there is nothing to discuss. That is anti-intellectual.
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YOU were the one saying there was nothing to discuss. I am the one saying there is tons to discuss.

So what are you talking about?

If someone thinks God is a trinity of Moe, Larry, and Curly, that is as good as any other opinion.
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Both are merely blind guesses. A blind guess may be correct. If you want to blindly guess that there is a God and that the God is a trinity...and someone else wants to blindly guess there are no gods...

...all you are doing is comparing blind guesses.
 
Frank Apisa said:
YOU were the one saying there was nothing to discuss. I am the one saying there is tons to discuss.

So what are you talking about?



Both are merely blind guesses. A blind guess may be correct. If you want to blindly guess that there is a God and that the God is a trinity...and someone else wants to blindly guess there are no gods...

...all you are doing is comparing blind guesses.
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All I need to know. God, Three Stooges, Moon made of Cheese...all equally valid.
 
BidenPresident said:
All I need to know. God, Three Stooges, Moon made of Cheese...all equally valid.
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Okay.

1) God. Some people make a blind guess that this thing we humans call "the universe" was created...and the creator of that universe is this God they blindly guess exists.

They may be correct.

2) Three Stooges were a movie group. They actually existed. The three were played by four different actors at various times.

I was a fan of theirs.

3) We pretty much know about the make-up of the Moon. Doesn't seem to be any cheese involved.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Interesting blind guess...but just a blind guess. It may be correct...it may be incorrect.
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Agreed to an extent. I'm not so arrogant about my views that I think they're complete fact - and I would never try to push them on anyone. There is no reason to.

But, I also wouldn't say that they're 100% blind. My views on the multiverse are starting to become very widely accepted in the scientific community, and there is work in the area of quantum physics that supports some of the ideas I believe. There is also an abundance of commonality among near-death experiences - which don't necessarily validate everything I believe, but do cover scenarios that are in line w/ those beliefs. Same w/ past life regressions.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Okay.

1) God. Some people make a blind guess that this thing we humans call "the universe" was created...and the creator of that universe is this God they blindly guess exists.

They may be correct.

2) Three Stooges were a movie group. They actually existed. The three were played by four different actors at various times.

I was a fan of theirs.

3) We pretty much know about the make-up of the Moon. Doesn't seem to be any cheese involved.
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I tire of your "blind guess" stuff. Sorry.
 
BartenderElite said:
Agreed to an extent. I'm not so arrogant about my views that I think they're complete fact - and I would never try to push them on anyone. There is no reason to.

But, I also wouldn't say that they're 100% blind. My views on the multiverse are starting to become very widely accepted in the scientific community, and there is work in the area of quantum physics that supports some of the ideas I believe. There is also an abundance of commonality among near-death experiences - which don't necessarily validate everything I believe, but do cover scenarios that are in line w/ those beliefs. Same w/ past life regressions.
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As I said, your guess about a creator may be correct.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Okay.

1) God. Some people make a blind guess that this thing we humans call "the universe" was created...and the creator of that universe is this God they blindly guess exists.

They may be correct.

2) Three Stooges were a movie group. They actually existed. The three were played by four different actors at various times.

I was a fan of theirs.

3) We pretty much know about the make-up of the Moon. Doesn't seem to be any cheese involved.
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God does a fabulous job of not revealing himself.

"Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard" is what you get if your try a hospital ten minutes outside of the city.

Everybody knows that the moon is made of frozen Play-Doh. All you have to do is look up and see it.
 
BidenPresident said:
Does not bother me. I am observing that you have nothing to say.
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I am saying the most important thing being said in this thread, BP. THE most important thing. You may never grok it. But that does not mean I should stop saying it.

By the way, it does seem to bother you. Which actually is understandable.

You are one of the people here blindly guessing things...and reluctant to acknowledge that you are blindly guessing. Some of you blindly guess that a god exists; blindly guess about the nature of that god...what pleases it; what offends it; and what it expects of humans. Others blindly guess that there are no gods...or that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

Realizing that you are blindly guessing must be upsetting...so it makes sense that you are bothered.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I am saying the most important thing being said in this thread, BP. THE most important thing. You may never grok it. But that does not mean I should stop saying it.

By the way, it does seem to bother you. Which actually is understandable.

You are one of the people here blindly guessing things...and reluctant to acknowledge that you are blindly guessing. Some of you blindly guess that a god exists; blindly guess about the nature of that god...what pleases it; what offends it; and what it expects of humans. Others blindly guess that there are no gods...or that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one.

Realizing that you are blindly guessing must be upsetting...so it makes sense that you are bothered.
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I never agreed with you all talk about God is blind guessing. Repeat it 1000 more times and I still do not agree.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Savior?
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Yes.

Frank Apisa said:
Who was he saving?
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All humans who are willing to trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Frank Apisa said:
From whom or what?
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Satan / sin.

Frank Apisa said:
Why did they need saving?
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Their failure to be perfect in their thoughts/words/actions (in accordance with God's own perfect character) earned them a one-way ticket to the "Lake of Fire" upon God's final judgement day. This is not "physical death" (separation of one's soul from one's physical body), but rather "spiritual death" (eternal separation of one's soul from God).

Frank Apisa said:
This entire "saving" business is an insult to any god that might exist.
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Why?
 
IBDaMann said:
You are sensing a contradiction in all this, which is itself a separate discussion deserving of its own thread. The Christian God is omniscient, omnipotent and created everything. This means that God created the entire timeline for everything "in the beginning" when everything was created, called "The Plan" so God knew everything that was going to happen, due to His omniscience, as he created the timeline of His "The Plan".

At the same time, Christians believe we all have free will. The seeming contradiction comes in the form of your personal freedom to choose to act in a manner that violates the timeline that God established. How can you have freely made a choice if God created the timeline by which that is exactly what you chose?

I am saying all of this because it is the answer to your questions. Under the free will assumption, man "sins" and leaves the grace of God, and it is from this state that man needs "saving" and thus requires a "Savior" ... and a "Saviour" if you are British. Everything traces back to the "Original Sin" which was the first sin committed by man (but blamed on women) when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree. For that, humanity was cast out from paradise to fend for themselves in a cold, hard, cruel world ... and all children born thereafter were infected with original sin. Now humanity needed "saving".

The wording varies wildly between Christian denominations. Some Christians refer to the day they were "saved" as the day they had the epiphany that Jesus is their savior. Others refer to Jesus' dying on the cross as when He saved humanity. The term "sin" means different things to different Christians which is the source of arguments, infighting, and ultimately the formation of new denominations.

So the answer to your question is that Christians believe that an all-powerful and all-knowing God intelligently created Creation per His plan and also gave us all free will to leave His "grace" and we all therefore need to be saved. Jesus is the savior, God's son, who saved humanity by dying for humanity's "sins" or alternately, so that humanity could be saved."

You'll also notice that while the above answers many questions, it leaves you with many more new ones. This is why it needs its own thread. It could even be its own board.
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Well said!
 
gfm7175 said:
Yes.


All humans who are willing to trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior.
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Okay...so they are going to be saved if they are willing to trust.


Satan / sin.
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They are going to be saved from Satan...who's existence, like that of the god, is just a blind guess.

Wow.

And from sin...which is merely something they do that offends their god. Their god is offended by damn near everything...and they are going to be "saved" from that.

Wouldn't it be easier if the god just weren't offended by so much?


Their failure to be perfect in their thoughts/words/actions (in accordance with God's own perfect character) earned them a one-way ticket to the "Lake of Fire" upon God's final judgement day. This is not "physical death" (separation of one's soul from one's physical body), but rather "spiritual death" (eternal separation of one's soul from God).
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Jesus H. Christ. You think that god is "perfect in thoughts, words, and actions?

You gotta be kidding.

If the god were a human...it would be institutionalized. EVERYTHING offends it. The god you are talking about is one of the worst gods ever dreamed up by humans. Much better the Greek, Roman or Norse gods.


Why?
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Why is it an insult to have a god who requires its son to be tortured and killed before it will forgive humans for being human?

You gotta be kidding again.
 
BidenPresident said:
Either God created the world and is responsible. Or, God did not create the world. Perhaps there are other options, but this is the Christian theology that God created the world.
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Either Colt created the firearms and is responsible. Or, Colt did not create the firearms. Perhaps there are other options, but this is the Liberal theology that Colt created the firearms.
 
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