The main issue with Christianity

Right. So, Plato argues that God cannot be unjust.

It's more around "where does morality come from?" If God defines "good vs evil" then good vs evil is wholly arbitrary. If God only does good then good and evil are defined OUTSIDE of God meaning something else defines the things which God must comport with, meaning there's something "more powerful than God".

It isn't really about is God just or not, it's more around "is morality defined by God or does God have to function by some externally defined morality?"
 
it was what we were discussing earlier in this thread.......I don't care enough about your failed arguments to bother googling it......everything you say is invalid....

Are you talking to anyone in particular or just telling everyone who isn't you that you think everything they say is invalid? Because the latter seems to be the way many people like you function. If it didn't come out of your head it can't have merit.

Might explain why you seem to have ZERO clue how Christians are supposed to comport themselves. And why you seem intent on making a mockery of Christianity.
 
I do like it when you have something thoughtful to interject, especially if it is to kindly point out a noticed weakness in a bit of reasoning that I have come up with. Most of the people on this forum are incapable of noting issues with even my weakest bits of reasoning, so even those still fly by without me having any reason to fine-tune them or to otherwise toss them aside.


I wasn't familiar with the particular word 'privation' (it's not a part of my lexicon), but I am familiar with the concept you described and I do agree that things such as "darkness" aren't really things in and of themselves but are rather the absence of something else.

And yes, I do think that's a good way to boil down what I'm getting at when I say that "sin comes about as the result of a chosen rebellious action" or when I say that I view sin as a "quality control" / "trust" sort of thing.


Looking back at that analogy, I'm now thinking that it wasn't a good analogy to begin with, and even if it was, then you've definitely highlighted a weakness within it. Obviously, that wasn't the direction I was trying to go with it, but that's definitely a sensible retort that would "score points".

At which point, I'd then be compelled to retort in a manner that would explain how, when humans first came off of the assembly line, they were made to perfection but then later became corrupted by sin (deviated from perfection). That then allows for the "bad manufacturing" retort to be repeated. Uh oh...

Then I'd be compelled to return to the points I made earlier about how the free will design is all part of The Plan for restoring people to the perfection that they had when they originally came off of the assembly line, and that God's free will design is ultimately better than a programmed robot design because it allows for God's creation to willingly love him and desire to fellowship with him rather than simply existing in his presence because he programmed them to do so. (where's the joy in that?)

IOW, it all ultimately comes back to The Plan.

This "deviation from perfection" is something I just do not see. What does it mean?

It sounds contrived...an attempt to make "we are all sinners" seem like a reasonable construct.

Please...give me an example or two of "sinning" that involves anything other than something that offends your god; let it be something that does not come from disobeying a command of the god.

This is something I truly would like to discuss.
 
It's more around "where does morality come from?" If God defines "good vs evil" then good vs evil is wholly arbitrary. If God only does good then good and evil are defined OUTSIDE of God meaning something else defines the things which God must comport with, meaning there's something "more powerful than God".

It isn't really about is God just or not, it's more around "is morality defined by God or does God have to function by some externally defined morality?"

Ok. Have to say I lost track of what was being discussed, or why.
 
Are you talking to anyone in particular or just telling everyone who isn't you that you think everything they say is invalid? Because the latter seems to be the way many people like you function. If it didn't come out of your head it can't have merit.

Might explain why you seem to have ZERO clue how Christians are supposed to comport themselves. And why you seem intent on making a mockery of Christianity.

take it as personally as you want.......I would never say that an idea has to come out of my head to have merit......however I can confidently say I've never seen an idea come of yours that has......
 
My "focus", gfm, is on the FACT that the reason "sin" exists for Christians is because of the attribute assigned to the god of Christianity... the main one of which, is that damn near everything that humans do, other than adoring that god, offends it.
Anything that humans do that perverts or otherwise deviates away from God's transcendent, universally flourishing, and universally harmonious "order of operations" for his creation is "sin".

Galatians 5 provides a good compare/contrast between what "offends" God and what "pleases" God. Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance (quarreling), emulations (jealousy/malice), wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings (rowdy/crude behavior), and the like are all behaviors/attributes that "offend" God as they all pervert and otherwise deviate away from his flourishing/harmonious/perfect design of the world.

On the other hand, love (agape love, sacrificial uniting/healing love), joy (delighting in already possessed blessings, unrelated to circumstances), peace (inner calm, unrelated to circumstances), longsuffering (patience, enduring wrongdoings of others, etc), gentleness (kindness), goodness, faith, meekness (humbleness), and temperance (self control) are all behaviors/attributes that "please" God as they all exemplify God's flourishing/harmonious/perfect design of the world.

That, in great part, is the reason today's Christians go to such lengths to disassociate themselves from the god of the Old Testament...
I can't speak for other Christians, but as for myself, I don't disassociate myself from the OT at all. It is just as much a part of the Bible as the NT is. What I do find, however, is that a lot of people, especially non-Christians, typically take certain select OT verses out of context or otherwise don't understand the history/setting/context of said verses, thus bastardizing them when attempting to apply them to present-day Christians.

THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED. "The god Jesus worshiped" found many things offensive that modern Christians (and modern people in general), in large part, no longer consider immoral or perverting...and "the god Jesus worshiped" was not offended by many things modern Christians (and modern people in general) deem to be disgusting.
All this is revealing, as I understand it, is that God's perfect nature and man's sinful nature are two completely different things.

For example, there are a seemingly-growing number of Christians who condone homosexuality (IOW, they do not consider it to be a sin) even though a simple reading of the Bible clearly reveals it to be such (via multiple references in both the OT and the NT).

Those who have blindly guessed that a GOD exists may be correct (which necessitates that they may be wrong)...perhaps have bought into notions of the GOD's attributes. To me (this is strictly me), the attributes assigned to the Abrahamic GOD...sound more like the mores and wishes of a relatively unsophisticated, unknowledgeable, superstitious, ancient people...than the dictates of a GOD able to create a universe as immense as ours. Christians may be correct; the ancient Hebrews from whom they derived their GOD may have been correct. And it all may be a flight of fancy...like the flights of fancy of the Greek, Roman and Norse deities.
I find this to be reasonably presented.

Sounds good...almost poetic.

The bottom line, though, is that every "sin" is merely something that offends the god. This "what comes first, the taking of offense or the whatever" seems to be opportunistic and gratuitous.
I feel that this is a repetitious A->B->A->B cycle... I'll just clarify that I don't think that you're wrong in how you're defining sin, but rather I feel that a "personal preference" approach in defining sin (as opposed to a "quality control" approach) is an approach that misses the joy in the bigger picture of the Christian belief of what sin is, how it has been overcome, and how God's initially perfect creation will one day be restored back to a perfect state. (The Plan™)

My guess is that Christians assert that everyone is a sinner, because they think it sounds self-effacing...and they consider self-effacement to be something their god demands or likes.
By self-effacing do you mean modest? I just want to be clear on what you're saying as that particular term is not a part of my lexicon.

If so, then my response would be that your guess is definitely one reason why Christians assert that everyone is a sinner. I would also add that Christians make that assertion because it is the truth. Everyone outside of Jesus Christ has, at one point or another, perverted or otherwise deviated from God's perfect design of this world. My Galatians 5 reference from earlier notes several attributes that every mere mortal has possessed at least one of them at one point or another. Simpler minded Christians will otherwise correctly (per the faith) assert that everyone is a sinner because Romans 3:23 says so.
 
I could never be an Atheist - I lack faith.
I'm all too familiar with this quip. Are you saying 1) that you have no theism or 2) that I do?

In all fairness and out of respect, I will advise you that wandering down this flawed line of reasoning will not serve you well. I fully realize that the quip you made is very popular amongst Christians; however, they never had the benefit of having me explain how they are shooting themselves in the foot with it.
 
This "deviation from perfection" is something I just do not see. What does it mean?

Many Christians believe that Adam was, in fact, created "perfect" and this was prior to "the fall" ... and even prior to "the summer." When Adam and Eve were booted from Eden, "sin" began to accumulate and humanity simply became more and more "degraded." Many Christians believe that lifespans were meant to be closer to a thousand years, and are now lucky to reach one hundred, all because of not being in God's grace. This view leads to the occasional doomsday sect/cult that sees the end as being imminent.

This is the root "deviation from perfection" in mainstream (I hate that word) Christianity and its cause is being out of God's grace and is why they want their savior ... and British Christians want their saviour.
 
take it as personally as you want.......I would never say that an idea has to come out of my head to have merit......however I can confidently say I've never seen an idea come of yours that has......

Judge not lest ye be judged. You are a repellent person. Is that how God wants you to Witness for Him? By being a total douche nozzle?
 
IOW, it all ultimately comes back to The Plan.
Well, yes ... and the free will. After all, that is the required belief, i.e. Omniscient Creator + Free Will. Any argument you create must stem from this and adhere completely to it, so I recommend you always start with it. Then you'll always be golden like a calf idol. Wait, that didn't come out right. I know, you'll be hotter than a burning bush. Wait, the bush didn't burn, did it? Hmmmm. I know, it'll be sweeter than manna from heaven, i.e. a citrusy-almond kind of sweet.
 
Judge not lest ye be judged. You are a repellent person. Is that how God wants you to Witness for Him? By being a total douche nozzle?

you've already rejected witness.......we've moved on to using you as an example of stupidity.....as a witness to others......
 
Anything that humans do that perverts or otherwise deviates away from God's transcendent, universally flourishing, and universally harmonious "order of operations" for his creation is "sin".

Holy moly!

Please take this as a bit of humor, gfm, but I gotta ask: Did your keyboard survive this encounter? Was there any serious damage to it?

Look..."humans"...are just the currently dominant life-form** on a nondescript speck of cosmic dust circling a relatively nondescript star in a relatively nondescript galaxy in what is considered by said humans to be a universe so expansive it takes light travelling at over 186,000 miles per second...billions of years to traverse.

But you are guessing that the GOD that CREATED all that...is so offended by this life-form perverting or otherwise deviating from Its (the God's) transcendent, universally flourishing, and universally harmonious "order of operations" (whatever that means)...that It (once again, the God) considers it "sin"...and demands a blood sacrifice in order to forgive the sinners?

C'mon!

I would love a discussion...but if your fear of this god is so great you must fall back on arguments like this...it is going to make things very, very difficult.

Any chance you could reconsider this first paragraph?

**A life form that has dominated the planet for only a tiny fraction of its existence.
 
Holy moly!

Please take this as a bit of humor, gfm, but I gotta ask: Did your keyboard survive this encounter? Was there any serious damage to it?

Look..."humans"...are just the currently dominant life-form** on a nondescript speck of cosmic dust circling a relatively nondescript star in a relatively nondescript galaxy in what is considered by said humans to be a universe so expansive it takes light travelling at over 186,000 miles per second...billions of years to traverse.

But you are guessing that the GOD that CREATED all that...is so offended by this life-form perverting or otherwise deviating from Its (the God's) transcendent, universally flourishing, and universally harmonious "order of operations" (whatever that means)...that It (once again, the God) considers it "sin"...and demands a blood sacrifice in order to forgive the sinners?

C'mon!

I would love a discussion...but if your fear of this god is so great you must fall back on arguments like this...it is going to make things very, very difficult.

Any chance you could reconsider this first paragraph?

**A life form that has dominated the planet for only a tiny fraction of its existence.

sort of a miracle we're even here, isn't it........oh, wait.........
 
So who originally decreed what is "good" and what is "evil"? Remember God, that being than which none greater can be conceived, created all things, all concepts.
God. (but it's not about proclaiming it; it's about his nature)

You haven't solved the dilemma just by emphasizing "he" in the sentence.
The 'he' in the sentence is what solves the supposed dilemma. The dilemma posits that Christians are stuck between a rock and a hard place in their dogma because either [1] good is independent of/above God (IOW good stems externally), or [2] good is an arbitrary whim of God (IOW, good can change over time).

However, Christians reject BOTH of those points. Instead, Christians accept a third point. [3] good is God's nature (IOW, good is immutable and stems internally). Thus, no dilemma exists.

If God didn't decree what is good or bad, who did?
God. (but it's not about proclaiming it; it's about his nature)

And why does God need to adhere to that definition? Is He not all powerful?
God is the paradigm of goodness. Therefore, whatever he decrees must also be good, by nature of his character.

You ask why God needs to adhere to that definition. I'll answer your question with a question: Why can't you sprint 60MPH? Because that particular ability is not a part of your nature. Likewise, the ability to do evil is not a part of God's nature, so he must do good (and you must remain below 60MPH when sprinting).
 
God. (but it's not about proclaiming it; it's about his nature)

God defined what is good because he's good? So you solve the dilemma by simply decreeing one horn to be superior. Got it. (I don't think you understand dilemmas)

The 'he' in the sentence is what solves the supposed dilemma.

See above. You don't really understand the dilemma.

The dilemma posits that Christians are stuck between a rock and a hard place in their dogma because either [1] good is independent of/above God (IOW good stems externally), or [2] good is an arbitrary whim of God (IOW, good can change over time).

Ironic that you can effectively tell us what the dilemma is while not understanding it.


However, Christians reject BOTH of those points. Instead, Christians accept a third point. [3] good is God's nature (IOW, good is immutable and stems internally). Thus, no dilemma exists.

Simply saying it doesn't exist doesn't make it less of a dilemma. It does, however, show that you don't necessarily understand the dilemma.

God is the paradigm of goodness. Therefore, whatever he decrees must also be good, by nature of his character.

So God has to be good. Who defined what is good so that God would have an essence?

You ask why God needs to adhere to that definition. I'll answer your question with a question: Why can't you sprint 60MPH?

In your theology God seems limited. In my theology God is that being than which none greater can be conceived and as such is not as limited as your "demi-god".

Because that particular ability is not a part of your nature. Likewise, the ability to do evil is not a part of God's nature, so he must do good (and you must remain below 60MPH when sprinting).

So God is limited.

Got it. Guess we can dispense with the Ontological argument then, too?
 
God. (but it's not about proclaiming it; it's about his nature)


The 'he' in the sentence is what solves the supposed dilemma. The dilemma posits that Christians are stuck between a rock and a hard place in their dogma because either [1] good is independent of/above God (IOW good stems externally), or [2] good is an arbitrary whim of God (IOW, good can change over time).

However, Christians reject BOTH of those points. Instead, Christians accept a third point. [3] good is God's nature (IOW, good is immutable and stems internally). Thus, no dilemma exists.


God. (but it's not about proclaiming it; it's about his nature)


God is the paradigm of goodness. Therefore, whatever he decrees must also be good, by nature of his character.

You ask why God needs to adhere to that definition. I'll answer your question with a question: Why can't you sprint 60MPH? Because that particular ability is not a part of your nature. Likewise, the ability to do evil is not a part of God's nature, so he must do good (and you must remain below 60MPH when sprinting).

Here's a question for you: is genocide ever a "good" thing? Because 1Sam 15:3 shows God commanding a genocide (via Samuel) and when the genocide is not carried out sufficiently by Saul God turns away from Saul.

So that means genocide can sometimes be a "good" thing per God's immutable nature.
 
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