The main issue with Christianity

[Ross Dolan]

..."man"... Did you mean to say "C'mon, man!"??

I meant "C'mon.

Yes. What else would you call a living human that has only existed for a short amount of time?

I would call a living human that has only existed a short amount of time..."very young."

But you were calling a fetus "very young." A fetus IS NOT a living human.

Oh really? What species is a fetus? Or is "a fetus" actually not a species at all but rather a particular developmental stage of certain particular species (such as humans)? Why don't you just stick to what is being discussed, which is 'living humans'? Why must you insert all sorts of other irrelevant words into the discussion?

An acorn is not an oak tree.

A chicken egg is not a chicken.

And a human fetus is not a human.

Nothing irrelevant there.

This is regarding the question that I asked the other poster (and the question that he first asked me), not regarding the side discussion about abortion.

I do not care what it is regarding. You had a right to post the comment...just as I had the right to question it.

Evil still works out according to his ultimate plan, per the belief.

You avoided those questions. I suspected you would.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I thought you "[had] no interest in Christian mythology"...

I do.

So...why are you saying that your god tells you abortion is wrong?

The Bible never mentions it. NEVER. The word never appears.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

They are a psychotic lot.....they profess to LOVE life the nano-second a sperm hits the egg...then they vote against ANY social service for parents or a single parent, as they HATE the very idea of somebody "living off my taxes". And of course, the majority have no problem with the lies that led to invading Iraq, or the amazing waste & mismanagement of 20 years in Afghanistan. Our resident pro-life wonks go into over drive regarding the status of the foster care system or rate of adoption. The underlay of all their hysteria is the paranoia that someone in America is "getting something for nothing" .... and a incessant need to punish people for (GASP!) having pre-marital sex (of course, contraceptives for teens is out of the question .... you can have jr. driver's license at 16 or 17, join the army at 18...go figure).

So all this "christo-fascist" nonsense is just that....nonsense. That none of these folks see the parallel to the likes of the Taliban and Al Qaeda never ceases to amaze me.

And the band played on.

By some karmic coincidence, one of my daughters posted this last night. Carlin sums it up nicely. And you can't argue with his observation/question: "Why is it that most of the people who are against abortion you wouldn't want to fuck anyways?"

 

[Phantasmal]

By some karmic coincidence, one of my daughters posted this last night. Carlin sums it up nicely. And you can't argue with his observation/question: "Why is it that most of the people who are against abortion you wouldn't want to fuck anyways?"

Carlin always had a very blunt way with words.

 

[gfm7175]

OK, since you think yourself superior I'll answer your question but you wont' like the answer:

That would be God.

Splendid! We have now established as fact that, according to Christianity, God is the creator of life.

If God created life, then does God have authority over life?

If God has authority over life, does that authority include both the creation of life and the destruction of life?

So I guess by your version of morality if God wants to murder someone it isn't wrong, but if people murder someone it is wrong.

Whoaaaaa dude.... slooooooow down.... One step at a time... I asked some follow up questions above that are continuing further down the path to the final conclusion. Let's stick to continuing that line of reasoning before we start inserting words such as "murder" and "genocide" into the conversation...

Here's where you fucked up:

I didn't "fuck up" anywhere. I'm currently in the process of showing you where you fucked up.

1. You solved the Euthyphro dilemma by merely stating that whatever God does is good.

Nope. What I actually said was that it is in God's nature to do good. IOW, God naturally always does good.

Making morality wholly arbitrary.

Wrong again. God's nature is also described as being immutable, which means that God does not do anything arbitrarily. God's own immutably perfect nature is the standard of morality.

2. 1 Sam 15:3 if you had any idea what it was about or even read it

I do and I have. Your conclusion from the passage is flawed because a premise of yours is flawed because you are bastardizing Christian belief re: God's character and God's authority.

is one in which God, via his prophet, commands PEOPLE TO DO A GENOCIDE. In other words God commands people to sin. Even by your arbitrary morality.

Once again, you're getting wayyyyyy ahead of yourself. Slow down on the "murder" and "genocide" claims for a second and just focus on completing the aforementioned line of reasoning that I'm going through with you.

I wanted you explain how it works in YOUR morality. I know what I believe. It isn't a gotcha unless you refuse to answer the question thereby showing your lack of understanding of the topic in toto.

I'm answering your question. I've told you in my prior response that I reject premise #2 and I am in the process of explaining to you why I reject it.

You mean it to be a gotcha question but it fails and I'm explaining why it fails.

 

[gfm7175]

Why do you never answer questions directly?

... except for all the times that I HAVE answered questions directly, of course...

Sounds pretty...you know...DISHONEST. I guess honesty isn't part of your morality?

I've been completely straightforward with you about why I am responding to your question with a series of questions. I've directly laid out your reasoning behind your question and the precise part of that reasoning that I reject.

I quite frankly don't know how I could be any more HONEST and straightforward with you than I am already being.

 

[evince]

There is the whole matter of how you have treated me over the years.

Because you are so nice huh


Fucking idiot

 

[gfm7175]

Correct.

Then why are you asking me questions about "Christian mythology"?

Are you saying you can only quote Christian dogma? ok.

No.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Splendid! We have now established as fact that, according to Christianity, God is the creator of life.

If God created life, then does God have authority over life?

If God has authority over life, does that authority include both the creation of life and the destruction of life?


Whoaaaaa dude.... slooooooow down.... One step at a time... I asked some follow up questions above that are continuing further down the path to the final conclusion. Let's stick to continuing that line of reasoning before we start inserting words such as "murder" and "genocide" into the conversation...


I didn't "fuck up" anywhere. I'm currently in the process of showing you where you fucked up.


Nope. What I actually said was that it is in God's nature to do good. IOW, God naturally always does good.


Wrong again. God's nature is also described as being immutable, which means that God does not do anything arbitrarily. God's own immutably perfect nature is the standard of morality.


I do and I have. Your conclusion from the passage is flawed because a premise of yours is flawed because you are bastardizing Christian belief re: God's character and God's authority.


Once again, you're getting wayyyyyy ahead of yourself. Slow down on the "murder" and "genocide" claims for a second and just focus on completing the aforementioned line of reasoning that I'm going through with you.


I'm answering your question. I've told you in my prior response that I reject premise #2 and I am in the process of explaining to you why I reject it.

You mean it to be a gotcha question but it fails and I'm explaining why it fails.

What you are doing is NOT rejecting premise #2 (although that may be a minor, insignificant part of what you are doing)...but more importantly, what you are doing is asserting that you know what your god would consider "good" or "bad."

Let me ask you this: Does your god consider abortion to be "good" or "bad?" (It is okay if you just make a blind guess on this, because that is all you can do...make a blind guess.)

And if your blind guess is that your god (whose existence also is a blind guess on your part) considers abortion to be "bad"...does it consider it to be "bad" all the time...or can it at times be "good."

 

[gfm7175]

I meant "C'mon.

Didn't like my Joe Biden joke?

I would call a living human that has only existed a short amount of time..."very young."

Exactly.

But you were calling a fetus "very young."

I did not say 'fetus' (a particular stage of human development); I said 'living human' (a particular species in a particular state of life).

A fetus IS NOT a living human.

How do you figure?

Does the human DNA tell you that the fetus is of some species other than a human? Does the presence of a heartbeat tell you that the fetus is dead?

An acorn is not an oak tree.

An acorn, upon germination, strives to develop into a full grown oak tree.

A chicken egg is not a chicken.

A chicken egg, upon fertilization, strives to develop into a full grown chicken.

And a human fetus is not a human.

A human egg, upon fertilization, strives to develop into a full grown human.

Nothing irrelevant there.

A lot of irrelevant things there. The question doesn't include any of those words outside of the word 'human', and the question specifies a 'living' human.

I do not care what it is regarding.

I can tell. I can tell that you don't care for rational discussion, especially if it reveals juuuuuuust how SHITTY of a person you are.

You avoided those questions. I suspected you would.

The answer to those questions is that, unless God directly reveals his plans to me, I don't know.

How do I know I am not thwarting my God's will by allowing a particular abortion? How do I know allowing an abortion is not part of my God's plan?

It goes both ways. Thus, I will choose to advocate for what is 'good' and advocate against what is 'evil'.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Didn't like my Joe Biden joke?

Actually didn't recognize it as a Joe Biden joke, but now that you mentioned it...yeah. It was funny. My bad not to recognize it.

Exactly.

We are in agreement here. A living human that has only existed a short amount of time is "very young." (Subjective, but we agree.)

I did not say 'fetus' (a particular stage of human development); I said 'living human' (a particular species in a particular state of life).

You were talking about a fetus. Stop with the bullshit. You don't do it well.

How do you figure?

How do I figure a fetus is not a living human?

A living human and a fetus are two different things...which is why there are two different words for them. A fetus becomes a living human when it is born.

Does the human DNA tell you that the fetus is of some species other than a human? Does the presence of a heartbeat tell you that the fetus is dead?

Nope to both. The fetus is a human fetus...and the fetus is not dead. But one thing the fetus is...is a fetus.

It is not a human until it is born.

An acorn, upon germination, strives to develop into a full grown oak tree.

I doubt it strives...but no matter. If it grows, it will grow into an oak tree...not an apple tree.

So what?

A chicken egg, upon fertilization, strives to develop into a full grown chicken.

Not sure about that strive stuff, but yup, a chicken egg will never develop into a turkey or a goose.

So what?

A human egg, upon fertilization, strives to develop into a full grown human.

Not sure about that strive stuff...but a human egg will never develop into an elephant...or anything other than a human.

So what?

A lot of irrelevant things there. The question doesn't include any of those words outside of the word 'human', and the question specifies a 'living' human.

A fetus is not a living human.

I can tell. I can tell that you don't care for rational discussion, especially if it reveals juuuuuuust how SHITTY of a person you are.

If supposing I am a shitty person helps you to deal with your life...fine with me. Have a ball.

The answer to those questions is that, unless God directly reveals his plans to me, I don't know.

Okay...something else we sorta agree on. Of course there is the question that there are no gods, but we will leave that for now.

How do I know I am not thwarting my God's will by allowing a particular abortion?

Ummm...that is not an answer. That is another question. So...essentially you are still avoiding the question.

How do I know allowing an abortion is not part of my God's plan?

Another question.

It goes both ways. Thus, I will choose to advocate for what is 'good' and advocate against what is 'evil'.

You choose to advocate for what you blindly guess to be evil. But if it happens that a particular abortion is what your god wants...it is not evil, right?

 

[gfm7175]

I do.

So...why are you saying that your god tells you abortion is wrong?

The Bible never mentions it. NEVER. The word never appears.

Why do you believe that the Bible would mention the word 'abortion' specifically?

The Bible DOES, however, include many passages that stress how important life and it's purpose is, including this beauty from Jeremiah 1:5 ...

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

 

[BidenPresident]

Why do you believe that the Bible would mention the word 'abortion' specifically?

The Bible DOES, however, include many passages that stress how important life and it's purpose is, including this beauty from Jeremiah 1:5 ...
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

So anti-abortionists base it on theology.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Why do you believe that the Bible would mention the word 'abortion' specifically?

I do not do "believing"...but I do wonder about things. The question you were asked is, "Does God tell you abortion is wrong?"

It seems to me that if your god does tell you abortion is wrong...it would be found there...in the Bible.

The Bible DOES, however, include many passages that stress how important life and it's purpose is, including this beauty from Jeremiah 1:5 ...

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

What does that have to do with the question?

Yeah, the Bible does include many passages that stress how important life is...but it also includes all sorts of passages ordering adherents to KILL.

So?

 

[gfm7175]

What you are doing is NOT rejecting premise #2 (although that may be a minor, insignificant part of what you are doing)...but more importantly, what you are doing is asserting that you know what your god would consider "good" or "bad."

The Bible is the authority, as it is the word of God. "Good" is rooted in God's immutable perfect nature, as described in The Bible.

Let me ask you this: Does your god consider abortion to be "good" or "bad?" (It is okay if you just make a blind guess on this, because that is all you can do...make a blind guess.)

God seems to frown upon abortion.

And if your blind guess is that your god (whose existence also is a blind guess on your part) considers abortion to be "bad"...does it consider it to be "bad" all the time...or can it at times be "good."

God seems to consider it bad all the time.

 

[Ross Dolan]

The Bible is the authority, as it is the word of God. "Good" is rooted in God's immutable perfect nature, as described in The Bible.

What nonsense.

We are not looking for bumper stickers, gfm.

God seems to frown upon abortion.

Where does it frown on it? Where in that Bible you suppose to be "the authority?"

I say the word abortion is not mentioned even once...nor is it alluded to.

If you dispute anything I said there...please provide a citation where we can see the god condemning abortion.

God seems to consider it bad all the time.

Your god does not even mention it. Not a word. Not in the Old Testament...nor in the New.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Splendid! We have now established as fact that, according to Christianity, God is the creator of life.

If God created life, then does God have authority over life?

If God has authority over life, does that authority include both the creation of life and the destruction of life?

Which I already addressed. Your morality is such that you solve Euthyphro by merely decreeing whatever God does is good. Ergo you have NOT proven the dilemma isn't real.

Nope. What I actually said was that it is in God's nature to do good. IOW, God naturally always does good.

So who established the Good that God does?

Sorry you are unable to understand this conversation. I wish you had more philosophy classes under your belt. It would be more interesting for me talking to you.

 

[Truth Detector]

Is that it's not aptly named.

A good portion - and I'd say most - of the religion are practices, rituals, rules and philosophies that were never spoken by Christ, or endorsed by Christ.

I think there are some sects that are strictly about the teachings of Christ, who I feel was an ascended being and someone whose words matter, but they're not mainstream Christianity.

This ^^ is why we don't argue with morons on the left.

 

[BidenPresident]

Which I already addressed. Your morality is such that you solve Euthyphro by merely decreeing whatever God does is good. Ergo you have NOT proven the dilemma isn't real.

What is the dilemma?

 

[gfm7175]

Actually didn't recognize it as a Joe Biden joke, but now that you mentioned it...yeah. It was funny. My bad not to recognize it.


We are in agreement here. A living human that has only existed a short amount of time is "very young." (Subjective, but we agree.)

I confirm the agreement up to this point.

You were talking about a fetus. Stop with the bullshit. You don't do it well.

No, I was talking about a 'living human'. A human fetus with a detectable heartbeat is a 'living human', right? If not, then:

[1] What species is the fetus, if not human?
[2] Does the presence of a heartbeat signify that the fetus is living? If not, then what does the presence of a heartbeat signify, and how does the fetus continue developing if it is dead?

How do I figure a fetus is not a living human?

Yes.

A living human and a fetus are two different things...which is why there are two different words for them.

The first word (living human) is describing a particular state of life of a particular species. The second word (fetus) is describing a particular developmental stage of various species (including humans).

It is most definitely possible for a particular state of life of a particular species (E.g. living human, dead cat, living dog, dead cougar) to be in a particular developmental stage (E.g. fetus, zygote, toddler, adolescent, elderly). Or are you trying to tell me that this is not possible?

A fetus becomes a living human when it is born.

Interesting... so what species is the fetus the day before it is born, the day before it magically transforms into a human? Are you also telling me that the heartbeat of the fetus the day before it is born signifies death meanwhile the heartbeat of the fetus the day it is born signifies life? Please advise.

Nope to both. The fetus is a human fetus...and the fetus is not dead. But one thing the fetus is...is a fetus.

It is not a human until it is born.

What species is the fetus before it is born? Please advise.

I doubt it strives...but no matter. If it grows, it will grow into an oak tree...not an apple tree.

So what?

Not sure about that strive stuff, but yup, a chicken egg will never develop into a turkey or a goose.

So what?

Not sure about that strive stuff...but a human egg will never develop into an elephant...or anything other than a human.

So what?

So the species in each case is immutable, correct?

So after germination/fertilization, a new oak tree, chicken, and human begin to develop, correct?

A fetus is not a living human.

Again, this is where you tell me what species the fetus is, if not human, and what a heartbeat signifies if not life. Please advise.

If supposing I am a shitty person helps you to deal with your life...fine with me. Have a ball.

What would you consider the condoning/support of killing living humans who have not committed any crime nor have expressed any desire to die, especially for the sake of conveniencing another living human, to be, if not shitty? Is that why you keep committing the special pleading fallacy?

Okay...something else we sorta agree on. Of course there is the question that there are no gods, but we will leave that for now.

Ok.

Ummm...that is not an answer. That is another question. So...essentially you are still avoiding the question.

Another question.

I literally just answered your question by saying "I don't know", and you even acknowledged that answer. Now you claim that I'm "still avoiding the question"? How soon you forget!

You choose to advocate for what you blindly guess to be evil. But if it happens that a particular abortion is what your god wants...it is not evil, right?

RQAA.