The main issue with Christianity

IBDaMann said:
This would explain your mental hesitance to referring to yourself as an atheist. Your position and mine are identical, i.e. you do not claim that there is/are a God/gods, you do not claim that there is not/are no God/gods. Your position is earmarked by what you don't claim (you have no theism) not by anything that you do claim (any particular theism). Your Christian upbringing instilled in you the mistaken belief that an atheist affirmatively states that there is no God ... and that is an error. The statement that there is no God is itself a theistic belief and thus precludes atheism. You do not make this claim. You claim, as do I, that those Christians might very well be right and hence, you are not rejecting the idea ... just that you have not yet been convinced and that you still have questions about some of the specifics of their faith. Similarly, you do not reject the theistic view that there is no God, but that you have not necessarily been convinced of that either. Nobody has shown you that there is/are a God/gods and nobody has shown you that there aren't any ... so either case is a possibility, so you reject neither but claim neither.

That's (actual) atheism. You lack any theism. That's all it means. The topic of agnosticism is completely separate and deals with what is knowable, not what is believed (theism). Whether you are a theist or atheist is independent of whether you are agnostic or not. The two are completely separate.

The part that's going to rub you the wrong way is that your embrace of the Global Warming and Climate Change religions puts you right back into the "Theist" category, but we can talk about that at another time.
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You must not be reading what I am writing, Mann.

Anyway...here are a few thoughts:

1) I suspect our positions are NOT identical. I suspect you choose the descriptor "atheist" because you either believe that there are no gods...or you believe that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is one.

That is not my position at all.

And if you are saying that you do not believe either of those things...choosing to designate yourself an atheist makes no sense. If you think the chances of a god existing and the chances of no gods existing are about equal...why would you choose to designate yourself an atheist? There is no standard definition requiring it...and frankly, you do not seem to be the kind of person who would allow a dictionary to dictate what you do.

2) There is absolutely no way whatever that I think that an atheist must affirmatively state that there are no gods. There is no requirement for a person who wants to use the descriptor "atheist" to do so. I state that unequivocally. I am at a loss as to why you continue to insist that I am doing that.

3) I am willing to present my take on the issue of gods to the public and I am saying that 99% of the people hearing it will assign a designation of "agnostic" to it...and damn near nobody (excepting debating atheists) will consider it to be an atheistic position.

4) Assigning the designation atheist is not something one is compelled to use...not by law or definition. It is something one chooses. And it is my experience that the only people who choose it are people convinced that there are no gods or who are convinced it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one. You are the first person I have ever encountered suggesting you are not of that mind...but still choose to be designated an atheist because SOME dictionaries suggest that you should.

Come back at me. Let's discuss this to death so that we are sure of why we each are taking the positions we are.
 
Frank Apisa said:
You must not be reading what I am writing, Mann.

Anyway...here are a few thoughts:

1) I suspect our positions are NOT identical. I suspect you choose the descriptor "atheist" because you either believe that there are no gods...or you believe that it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is one.

That is not my position at all.

And if you are saying that you do not believe either of those things...choosing to designate yourself an atheist makes no sense. If you think the chances of a god existing and the chances of no gods existing are about equal...why would you choose to designate yourself an atheist? There is no standard definition requiring it...and frankly, you do not seem to be the kind of person who would allow a dictionary to dictate what you do.

2) There is absolutely no way whatever that I think that an atheist must affirmatively state that there are no gods. There is no requirement for a person who wants to use the descriptor "atheist" to do so. I state that unequivocally. I am at a loss as to why you continue to insist that I am doing that.

3) I am willing to present my take on the issue of gods to the public and I am saying that 99% of the people hearing it will assign a designation of "agnostic" to it...and damn near nobody (excepting debating atheists) will consider it to be an atheistic position.

4) Assigning the designation atheist is not something one is compelled to use...not by law or definition. It is something one chooses. And it is my experience that the only people who choose it are people convinced that there are no gods or who are convinced it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one. You are the first person I have ever encountered suggesting you are not of that mind...but still choose to be designated an atheist because SOME dictionaries suggest that you should.

Come back at me. Let's discuss this to death so that we are sure of why we each are taking the positions we are.
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atheists do say there are no gods.

you guys have lost the term "agnostic" from your conversation.

that's also a thing.
 
JesusAI said:
atheists do say there are no gods.
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Some do...some do not. Some atheists go out of their way to avoid saying it.

you guys have lost the term "agnostic" from your conversation.
that's also a thing.
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I've heard it used several times...and have used it myself.

I prefer not to use it as a descriptor, because I think using descriptors causes problems with what the descriptor means.

I've given my take on the issue...and anyone reading that take can call it what they will.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Some do...some do not. Some atheists go out of their way to avoid saying it.



I've heard it used several times...and have used it myself.

I prefer not to use it as a descriptor, because I think using descriptors causes problems with what the descriptor means.

I've given my take on the issue...and anyone reading that take can call it what they will.
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it's actually about what they believe. if they believe there are no gods, they are an atheist. if they are not sure, they are agnostic.
 
BidenPresident said:
Either God created the world and is responsible. Or, God did not create the world. Perhaps there are other options, but this is the Christian theology that God created the world.
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Right, and the answer will vary depending on whom you ask. If you ask an external observer (not a Christian) then you will most likely get Frank's answer. If you ask an internal observer (Christian) then you are more likely to get JesusAI's response. They are both right when viewing the situation from their individual respective vantage positions.
 
IBDaMann said:
Right, and the answer will vary depending on whom you ask. If you ask an external observer (not a Christian) then you will most likely get Frank's answer. If you ask an internal observer (Christian) then you are more likely to get JesusAI's response. They are both right when viewing the situation from their individual respective vantage positions.
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I am talking theology, not personal opinions.
 
BidenPresident said:
Philosophy is not about magical thinking and prophesy, so correct.
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Thank you.

BidenPresident said:
But philosophy is about commenting on what other people have said.
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No, actually that is gossip and tabloid journalism.

Philosophy is the open functional system of seeking truth (read: that which is not false) by applying logic to given assumptions. Science is based on philosophy and is thus subject to its rules.
Logic is the closed functional system used to perform the calculus of philosophy. Mathematics is based on logic and is thus subject to its rules.
 
IBDaMann said:
Thank you.


No, actually that is gossip and tabloid journalism.

Philosophy is the open functional system of seeking truth (read: that which is not false) by applying logic to given assumptions. Science is based on philosophy and is thus subject to its rules.
Logic is the closed functional system used to perform the calculus of philosophy. Mathematics is based on logic and is thus subject to its rules.
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You know nothing about philosophy. Virtually zero.
 
JesusAI said:
atheists do say there are no gods.
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Thos who claim that are not atheists. They may claim to be atheists, but their theism precludes them being theistic.

JesusAI said:
you guys have lost the term "agnostic" from your conversation.
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Because that word has no place in this discussion.

JesusAI said:
that's also a thing.
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Yes, it is. It's an entirely different topic altogether and has nothing to do with theism/atheism.
 
JesusAI said:
it's actually about what they believe. if they believe there are no gods, they are an atheist. if they are not sure, they are agnostic.
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Totally incorrect.

If they have been convinced of some theism, which might include deities but might not, then they are theists to that extent.
If they have been convinced of a theism that has no gods, then they are theists who profess a profound faith that there are no gods, e.g. Buddhist monks, Marxists, etc., even if they mistakenly claim to be atheists.
If they are not convinced of any theism then they simply lack theism and are atheists and don't believe in any gods, but are not somehow required to reject the idea that maybe there are.

Agnosticism has no place in a discussion of theism. Agnosticism is a philosophical line of thought on what is knowable. It's a completely different topic.
 
BidenPresident said:
Either God created the world and is responsible. Or, God did not create the world. Perhaps there are other options, but this is the Christian theology that God created the world.
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I think a "creator" created the world. But that we're all the creator, essentially. I don't see the separation, or the idea of a separate God who "looks over us." It's all just us.

If anyone is interested.
 
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