THE QUESTION OF WHETHER ANY GODS EXIST...

*wipes the sandbox grit off her keyboard*

Oh goodie. Look! It's the Nutless Ones proclaiming that mygodsbetterthanyergod. Most of them are on ignore so I'm just guessing.... but yeah.

I'm sure your god(s) were there in FL two days ago. Locked and loaded.
 
For someone who continually makes a point as to who she has on IA, Owl also seems to spend a lot of time talking "about" those posts that she says she can't see. :palm:
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Nope - you're the one who started it - you won't and can't finish it - so there is no certainty, except your powerless.

Haven't seen any possibility of you doing anything.

This is fun. :D
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Your memory is failing you.

YOU started it...and I will finish it.

I will continue to have fun...even after I have finished it.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
do you guys think that if you go on for two more pages and lightning does not strike you down, that it proves God does not exist?....
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Not at all.

I do not think it is possible to prove either things.

You don't either.

We can guess there IS at least one god...or we can guess there are none.

I prefer not to do either.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
again, if you know so little about Christian theology, why do you waste your time discussing it?.....
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My guess is that I know more than you about Christian theology.

I've studied it.

I also conduct myself closer to the teachings of Jesus than you. That should count for something in this discussion.
 
Frank Apisa said:
My guess is that I know more than you about Christian theology.

I've studied it.

I also conduct myself closer to the teachings of Jesus than you. That should count for something in this discussion.
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I know that this is rightfully a point of pride for you. However I feel obligated to point out that it is not all that hard to follow Christ more closely than most of the self-appointed Xtians on the forum. My husband the life-long atheist behaves in a more Christ-like manner than most of these sad sacks.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
I know that this is rightfully a point of pride for you. However I feel obligated to point out that it is not all that hard to follow Christ more closely than most of the self-appointed Xtians on the forum. My husband the life-long atheist behaves in a more Christ-like manner than most of these sad sacks.
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I get what you are saying, OW.

Whenever I get one of those posts from PP, however, I feel almost compulsive about mentioning it.

I also like to dismiss his notion that I know so little of Christian theology. Fact is...I know quite a bit about it...not world-class, but quite a bit.

I have no doubt your husband does behave in a way more consistent with the teachings of Jesus than many professed Christians. MANY atheists and agnostics do!
 
Frank Apisa said:
...cannot be answered using logic, reason, science, or math.

It just cannot be done...or at least, I am asserting that it cannot. I've tried...never come close. I've challenged hundreds of others to give it a shot...none has ever come close.

I am inviting anyone who can prove the assertion wrong...or show substantially that it most likely is wrong...to do so.

To make my assertion even more specific...and more encompassing...I'm going to expand it:

One cannot use logic, reason, science, or math...to substantiate "At least one god exists."

One cannot use logic, reason, science, or math...to substantiate "No gods exist."

One cannot use logic, reason, science, or math...to substantiate "It is more likely that at least one god exists...than that no gods exist."

One cannot use logic, reason, science, or math...to substantiate "It is more likely that no gods exist...than that at least one god exists."

Comments would be appreciated.

Proving me wrong would be even more appreciated.
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Since science does not deal with truth, it deals with knowledge --- the scientific method is really not a school of thought designed to answer or examine these types of theological questions.

Is God an objective reality? Or is God a perception of the individual? Is there really such a thing as an objective, idealized truth independent and outside human perception. Obviously, these questions go back to Plato and the Sophists. And I would like to study these philosophical schools of thought more!

I am not going to begrudge anyone who - based on their personal perceptions and creed - thinks that there is an all knowing God, who takes a special interest in watching over humanity. A Jeffersonian approach to Deism seems eminently reasonable to me.

I do think that those who assert with certainty an objective form of truth; that their religious truth should apply to everyone else....are generally affiliated with religious zealotry, and are a potential danger to human freedom and to western liberal democracy.

"Neither a person nor a nation can exist without some higher idea. And there is only one higher idea on earth, and it is the idea of the immortality of the human soul, for all other higher ideas of life by which humans might live derive from that idea alone." - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
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Cypress said:
Since science does not deal with truth, it deals with knowledge --- the scientific method is really not a school of thought designed to answer or examine these types of theological questions.

Is God an objective reality? Or is God a perception of the individual? Is there really such a thing as an objective, idealized truth independent and outside human perception. Obviously, these questions go back to Plato and the Sophists. And I would like to study these philosophical schools of thought more!

I am not going to begrudge anyone who - based on their personal perceptions and creed - thinks that there is an all knowing God, who takes a special interest in watching over humanity. A Jeffersonian approach to Deism seems eminently reasonable to me.

I do think that those who assert with certainty an objective form of truth; that their religious truth should apply to everyone else....are generally affiliated with religious zealotry, and are a potential danger to human freedom and to western liberal democracy.
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Thank you for those thoughts, Cypress.

If I read you correctly, we are not far apart in our thoughts on this matter,

My point here is there are people who assert, "There is at least one god...or it is more likely that there is at least one god)...and I respectfully suggest that the assertion is a guess. It is not a result of logic, reason or the other things.

There also are people who assert, "There are no gods...or it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one. I respectfully suggest that assertion is as much a guess as the previous guess.

That's all.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Thank you for those thoughts, Cypress.

If I read you correctly, we are not far apart in our thoughts on this matter,

My point here is there are people who assert, "There is at least one god...or it is more likely that there is at least one god)...and I respectfully suggest that the assertion is a guess. It is not a result of logic, reason or the other things.

There also are people who assert, "There are no gods...or it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one. I respectfully suggest that assertion is as much a guess as the previous guess.

That's all.
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Someone's assertion is obviously someone else's faith.

I do not begrudge personal faith.

I do find inserting religious zealotry into science and politics to be problematic.

We used to have a Republican poster here who would argue for hours that biological evolution was not possible. It was even possible that dinosaurs and humans lived together! Hilarious and harmless in the context of a message board. But much more pernicious when used to fund pseudo-educational farces (aka, the Creation Science Museum) or to influence public policy.
 
Cypress said:
Someone's assertion is obviously someone else's faith.

I do not begrudge personal faith.
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Just want to be sure I am clear on this, Cypress, because it is an important part of the dynamic of why I started this thread.

I also have no problem with a person’s personal “faith.”

But if you agree with me on the OP items…it puts the notion of “beliefs” and “faith” into a different light.

If a person (person #1) chooses to say, “There is at least one god”…that is their right; and if a person (person #2), on the other hand, chooses to say, “There are no gods”…that is their right. But to suggest that either assertion is the result of logic or reason…is not. The assertions, “There is at least one god” or "there are no gods"…are the result of a choice. I could, if I wanted, make one or the other choice by flipping a coin and declaring “heads” to decide one way…and “tails” the other.

There would be no substantive difference between the way person #1 and person #2…and I… arrived at our assertion either way.

Person #1 and often person #2 express their ideas as “beliefs.” They say, “I believe there is a god” or “I believe there are no gods.” Calling it a “belief”, as far as I am concerned, disguises what it actually is. Not making a judgment about people who do that…it is a right they have. Just calling attention to what is actually happening.

“Faith”…seem to me a way of saying, “I am just guessing there is a god…but I am going to be stubborn about it.” Nothing wrong with that. It is a right everyone has. Not making a judgment about people who do that…it is a right they have. Just calling attention to what is actually happening.

I do not do it. My choice, which is my right, is to not make a choice…and disguise the choice with the words “believe” or “belief.”

That is why I say I do not do “believing.”

On minor matters, I could easily and reasonably use “believe” the way most people do. For instance, I could guess that there are people living on planets close enough to Earth who are sufficiently advanced as to be able to visit and observe our planet and its life. I could say, “I believe aliens from other planets have visited our planet” (or “I believe no aliens have ever visited our planet”)…BUT I DO NOT.

I choose not to do “believing"...I choose not to do any "believing" so I do not fall into the trap of doing so on the question of the existence or non-existence of gods.

We’re having a discussion about that right now as you may have noticed. I'm delighted you've given me the opportunity to expand on my thoughts on the issue.



 
I don't believe there are any Gods Or Monsters


I used facts and science to come to that determination


people who believe in gods and monsters don't do that
 
evince said:
I don't believe there are any Gods Or Monsters
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Are you actually saying, "I don't believe there are any Gods or Monsters"...or are you actually saying, "I believe there are no Gods or Monsters?"

They are not the same thing.

I do not do "believing"...and I can agree with the former. I also do not believe there are any Gods or Monsters. But if you are actually saying the second thing...I cannot agree.

In the former...you are telling us one of the things you DO NOT BELIEVE. IF it is the latter...you are telling us something you BELIEVE.

If it is the latter...I thank you for sharing your guesses about gods and monsters.

I used facts and science to come to that determination
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If you mean what you wrote...rather than what I suspect you were saying...fine.

If you mean the latter, though, you most assuredly did not use facts and science. You may have used the absence of facts to make the guess you are making...but all it is...is a guess.

people who believe in gods and monsters don't do that
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Neither do people who believe there are no gods or monsters.
 
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