THE QUESTION OF WHETHER ANY GODS EXIST...

[Ralph]

No...it is unknown to me.

I cannot even understand why you suppose it "came into" physical reality.

Suppose it didn't?




Beats the hell of me. I do not know seems the only reasonable, logical answer to those questions.

Your "it must have had a beginning" is an interesting guess, though.





I thank you for those guesses...but nothing you said there is logical...or deductive reasoning.



You seem intent on your conclusion...which I think came before all the reasoning. I find that with atheists also.

I cannot "objective, testable, reproducible, constant facts that debunk your guesses...but I don't think the burden of proof is on me.

.

I think you are guessing...and claiming your guesses are not guesses.




The burden of proof, Ralph, is on the person making the assertion. You are asserting "all this" had a beginning...and the beginning was caused by a god.

Where is the proof?

Even in a court of law....prima facie evidences stand as valid evidence of convection until some Objective Testable Evidence is presented that proves the circumstantial evidence to be false.




Thank you for all this. You put lots of effort into this. I'll read other reactions to it...and then maybe get back to you.

So....in spite of Physical Science and he evidence that the Universe is dying a slow expanding death.....IT NEVER CAME INTO EXISTENCE IT IS ETERNAL YET HAS AN ENDING? Really? I lost interest in your snowflake defections on the very first "impossible hypothetical". Its no wonder you are stuck in a paradox.....you have no articulative cognitive logical thought patterns in your mind.

And the fact that you exist, and the Universe exists....does not constitute the prima facie evidence that your very existence requires a CAUSE to that scientific fact? You're not much of a scientist are ya sport? FYI: its not a "guess" when you can objectively reach out and touch the reality that surrounds you. If nature is not capable of defining its own existence....then LOGICALLY there must be a SUPER FORCE TO NATURE...i.e., a Supernatural Force/Cause to the effect known as physical reality.

As I said....until you present evidence that God is not that supernatural force (prima facie/circumstantial truth).....My faith stands firm on the physical law of causality.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Well, I was brought up Christian Socialist, my father a clergyman, my Mother an atheist, and I was always a bit dubious about 'gods', but went along with the opinion of Jesus of Nazareth, whom, as one of the first socialists, I greatly admire. I came to the conclusion that everyone thought that way back then but it is not a concept we would come up with nowadays if we weren't taught it in youth.

I personally think there are more people who do not identify as Christian...who live lives according to the way Jesus wanted people to live them...

...than there are people who identify as Christian...who do.

Some of the most vocal and vehement of American Christians...seem to live lives that show contempt for the teachings ascribed to Jesus.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Dude, I know Frank. Trust me.

I am asking for a discussion. If you want to think having that discussion means I am bashing people...nothing I can do about that.

 

[Ross Dolan]

So....in spite of Physical Science and he evidence that the Universe is dying a slow expanding death.....IT NEVER CAME INTO EXISTENCE IT IS ETERNAL YET HAS AN ENDING?

YOU do not KNOW the universe is approaching death. All you can talk about is the part of the universe we can see.

The greatest scientists in the world CANNOT say for certain that the universe (EXISTENCE) had a beginning...nor that it will have an end.

Really? I lost interest in your snowflake defections on the very first "impossible hypothetical". Its no wonder you are stuck in a paradox.....you have cognitive logical thought patterns in your mind.

Thank you for sharing your rude considerations of me.

And the fact that you exist, and the Universe exists....does not constitute the prima facie evidence that your very existence requires a CAUSE to that scientific fact? You're not much of a scientist are ya sport?

No, I am not a scientist.

I am a person will to acknowledge that I do not know the stuff I do not know.

You ought to give that a try.

 

[Ralph]

YOU do not KNOW the universe is approaching death. All you can talk about is the part of the universe we can see.

The greatest scientists in the world CANNOT say for certain that the universe (EXISTENCE) had a beginning...nor that it will have an end.





Thank you for sharing your rude considerations of me.




No, I am not a scientist.

I am a person will to acknowledge that I do not know the stuff I do not know.

You ought to give that a try.

I have one suggestion. "IF" you do not want to know the answer, don't ask the question. As all Christians are commanded to give a defense as to why their faith not only rests within their heart but grows with each challenge to that faith. "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, AND ALWAYS BE READY TO GIVE A DEFENSE to WHO ASKS YOU ARE REASON FOR THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU...with meekness and fear." -- 1 Peter 3:15

That's why I address the fools who actually do not want to learn but simply stir up strife....in an attempt to rob others of a faith they themselves do not posses. I guess its true, "misery loves company..." yet.... I am commanded to defend MY FAITH. As for your faith or the lack thereof, that's for you work out....or not, as I have no dog in your personal hunt.

Yes indeed....If you accept physical science as Objective Truth.....the Universe is dying according to the Laws of Physics. Its not a guess its a quantified reality based upon the potential of the elements that make up this physical reality...all of which are commanded by the LAWS OF PHYSICS. As I said.....you're not much on Science are you sport?

Perhaps your "atheistic" cohorts can explain the simple in a method that a 5 year old can comprehend it. www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/us/universe-dying/index.html

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Or...there are gods...and the gods do not give a damn about what we do.
The notion of praying to a god to stop the carnage...of praying to a god willing to allow the carnage to take place...does seem futile.

I think if I was one of the parents who lost a child in this carnage, and someone said "I'll pray for you," I'd spit in their face.

When my oldest daughter, who will be 40 this year, was a senior in high school, a kid brought a gun to school. I heard about it on the noon news broadcast. All I remember was grabbing the car keys, running out in my bare feet to the car, rushing to the school. The police had the road blocked off so all the parents had just sort of careened off the road onto the sidewalks, filled up the McDonald's parking lot by the school, and were milling around sobbing and hand-wringing. I joined them. I cannot describe how unbearable the terror was. Thankfully although he held his algebra class hostage for a time, they were able to talk the kid into surrendering and no one was harmed. My daughter said that she was at her locker between classes and she and her friend saw the kid walk by and turn the corner, carrying the pistol. As you can imagine, every time there is another school shooting I relive that day. I'm sure all the parents involved do too.

https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1...-who-held-class-hostage-with-gun-is-certified

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Members of the Jesus Seminars...which included bishops and clergy as well as lay religious scholars, have concluded that almost none of the supposed quotes from Jesus in the Gospel of John...were actually uttered by Jesus. That includes the John 14 verse you are speaking of.

as I said.....the only people who deny he said it are people who deny scripture......people who deny the Bible are hardly biblical scholars......that would be like saying experts in evolution deny the existence of fossils.......

 

[Ross Dolan]

Yes indeed....If you accept physical science as Objective Truth.....the Universe is dying according to the Laws of Physics.

Even IF one accepts physical science as Objective Truth...(not sure I would do that)...all science can do is to tell us WHAT THE PART OF THE UNIVERSE WE NOW KNOW...is doing.

It would be presumptuous of any scientist to suppose we know ALL OF THE UNIVERSE.

This thing we see supposedly expanding and dying...may be a pimple on the actual universe...and the actual universe may be eternal and undying.

Its not a guess its a quantified reality based upon the potential of the elements that make up this physical reality...all of which are commanded by the LAWS OF PHYSICS. As I said.....you're not much on Science are you sport?

You are not much on reason, Ralph. Scientists are more than willing to acknowledge that what we know about the universe...may be just a tiny fraction of what can be known.

Perhaps your "atheistic" cohorts can explain the simple in a method that a 5 year old can comprehend it. www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/us/universe-dying/index.html

I'll let the atheists deal with that.

In any case, "the universe" they are talking about is only the part of what exists that we know about. A mere century or so ago...we thought the Milky Way Galaxy was the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. Right now, we know it is but a tiny part of the universe. A hundred years from now...we may find that what we now think of as "THE UNIVERSE" is but a tiny part of what really is the universe.

 

[Ross Dolan]

I think if I was one of the parents who lost a child in this carnage, and someone said "I'll pray for you," I'd spit in their face.

When my oldest daughter, who will be 40 this year, was a senior in high school, a kid brought a gun to school. I heard about it on the noon news broadcast. All I remember was grabbing the car keys, running out in my bare feet to the car, rushing to the school. The police had the road blocked off so all the parents had just sort of careened off the road onto the sidewalks, filled up the McDonald's parking lot by the school, and were milling around sobbing and hand-wringing. I joined them. I cannot describe how unbearable the terror was. Thankfully although he held his algebra class hostage for a time, they were able to talk the kid into surrendering and no one was harmed. My daughter said that she was at her locker between classes and she and her friend saw the kid walk by and turn the corner, carrying the pistol. As you can imagine, every time there is another school shooting I relive that day. I'm sure all the parents involved do too.

https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1...-who-held-class-hostage-with-gun-is-certified

I agree, OW.

That "I'll pray for you" can have a stinging sound to it.

Mostly...I accept it as a kindness from those who think it is important. But in a situation like you mentioned above...I might react with anger.

 

[Ross Dolan]

as I said.....the only people who deny he said it are people who deny scripture......people who deny the Bible are hardly biblical scholars......that would be like saying experts in evolution deny the existence of fossils.......

That is NOT what you said.

What you said was:

well no....everyone who studies the scriptures knows he said that.....only people who reject scripture, and therefore reject Christ think he didn't say it....those folks aren't scholars.....they are simply atheists......



If you want to think that the 150 or so bishops, clergymen, and religious scholars are atheists...think it.

It is a rather absurd thought...but you are entitled to think it.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

That is NOT what you said.

What you said was:

well no....everyone who studies the scriptures knows he said that.....only people who reject scripture, and therefore reject Christ think he didn't say it....those folks aren't scholars.....they are simply atheists......



If you want to think that the 150 or so bishops, clergymen, and religious scholars are atheists...think it.

okay, good point......some of them may believe in deities other than the God worshiped by Christianity......but it remains that one who rejects the Bible is not a biblical scholar........I ignore the opinions of nonChristians about Christianity.........just as you would reject the opinion of evolutionists who rejected fossils as evidence.......

 

[evince]

Unless the god is one that does not care.

There may be gods...but just not the kind we humans favor for "worshiping."

We'll get back to the discussion...although the distraction will probably remain for a while.

what makes them GODs then

if they are just other beings who have some powers over us due to their innate nature they are not gods anymore than we are the gods of ants

 

[evince]

I think if I was one of the parents who lost a child in this carnage, and someone said "I'll pray for you," I'd spit in their face.

When my oldest daughter, who will be 40 this year, was a senior in high school, a kid brought a gun to school. I heard about it on the noon news broadcast. All I remember was grabbing the car keys, running out in my bare feet to the car, rushing to the school. The police had the road blocked off so all the parents had just sort of careened off the road onto the sidewalks, filled up the McDonald's parking lot by the school, and were milling around sobbing and hand-wringing. I joined them. I cannot describe how unbearable the terror was. Thankfully although he held his algebra class hostage for a time, they were able to talk the kid into surrendering and no one was harmed. My daughter said that she was at her locker between classes and she and her friend saw the kid walk by and turn the corner, carrying the pistol. As you can imagine, every time there is another school shooting I relive that day. I'm sure all the parents involved do too.

https://www.questia.com/newspaper/1...-who-held-class-hostage-with-gun-is-certified

wholey crap

sorry to hear you had to bare that one too girlfriend


It irks me every time I hear it said to me.

I cant help it

it just does

my next thoughts are deliberate

I chastise myself for feeling that and remind myself that they are merely saying

they will be thinking about me and hoping in the best way they know how to


to wish me well

they are sending me good thoughts and feelings

good thoughts are good for everyone involved


but if you are trying to console people there may be better mire personal things to say than to announce your chosen religion and its practices that are not a part of the consoled persons life.


christians often forget other people may not share their religion

or they look at every situation as a chance to convert you


it a symptom of the way organized religion sees its self


as a competition to be the last religion standing

they all seem to think the world will end and "god' will punish those who chose the wrong one

 

[evince]

I really like that dog that is your avatar, Evince. A beauty.

he is now 90 lbs of long tall lean beautiful man dog

I always feel kinda guilty calling an adult dog a girl or a boy

they are adults of their species

So I often tell my girl dog she is a beautiful woman dog

and my boys I call man dogs

like my adult son

they are all still my babies though

that boy is a bernese mountain dog/ border collie

at least that is my best guess


like all my dogs they are from the pound or found outright

 

[Ross Dolan]

okay, good point......

Thank you for that, PP.

...some of them may believe in deities other than the God worshiped by Christianity......but it remains that one who rejects the Bible is not a biblical scholar........I ignore the opinions of nonChristians about Christianity.........just as you would reject the opinion of evolutionists who rejected fossils as evidence.......

One of them is an Episcopal Bishop. If you want to claim that an Episcopal Bishop IS NOT A CHRISTIAN...not much can be accomplished.

And they are not "rejecting" the Bible...they are merely saying that humans sometimes make mistakes...even when putting a Bible together.

 

[Ross Dolan]

what makes them GODs then

Let me be sure I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that there cannot be gods...unless the god are like the gods we humans have worshiped?

if they are just other beings who have some powers over us due to their innate nature they are not gods anymore than we are the gods of ants

If they are gods...they are gods whether the insignificant dominant beings on this relatively insignificant planet realize it or not.

 

[Ross Dolan]

wholey crap

sorry to hear you had to bare that one too girlfriend


It irks me every time I hear it said to me.

I cant help it

it just does

my next thoughts are deliberate

I chastise myself for feeling that and remind myself that they are merely saying

they will be thinking about me and hoping in the best way they know how to


to wish me well

they are sending me good thoughts and feelings

good thoughts are good for everyone involved


but if you are trying to console people there may be better mire personal things to say than to announce your chosen religion and its practices that are not a part of the consoled persons life.


christians often forget other people may not share their religion

or they look at every situation as a chance to convert you


it a symptom of the way organized religion sees its self


as a competition to be the last religion standing

they all seem to think the world will end and "god' will punish those who chose the wrong one

That OW story scared the crap out of me. I cannot imagine what it is like being terrified like that.

 

[evince]

So....in spite of Physical Science and he evidence that the Universe is dying a slow expanding death.....IT NEVER CAME INTO EXISTENCE IT IS ETERNAL YET HAS AN ENDING? Really? I lost interest in your snowflake defections on the very first "impossible hypothetical". Its no wonder you are stuck in a paradox.....you have no articulative cognitive logical thought patterns in your mind.

And the fact that you exist, and the Universe exists....does not constitute the prima facie evidence that your very existence requires a CAUSE to that scientific fact? You're not much of a scientist are ya sport? FYI: its not a "guess" when you can objectively reach out and touch the reality that surrounds you. If nature is not capable of defining its own existence....then LOGICALLY there must be a SUPER FORCE TO NATURE...i.e., a Supernatural Force/Cause to the effect known as physical reality.

As I said....until you present evidence that God is not that supernatural force (prima facie/circumstantial truth).....My faith stands firm on the physical law of causality.

supernatural force?


you mean all undiscovered scientific facts are what?

 

[Ross Dolan]

he is now 90 lbs of long tall lean beautiful man dog

I always feel kinda guilty calling an adult dog a girl or a boy

they are adults of their species

So I often tell my girl dog she is a beautiful woman dog

and my boys I call man dogs

like my adult son

they are all still my babies though

that boy is a bernese mountain dog/ border collie

at least that is my best guess


like all my dogs they are from the pound or found outright

I can see the Border Collie in him. We have some on our golf courses...to get the Canada Geese moving. We try to keep the mementos geese leave behind at a minimum. Really interferes with the putting!

Border collies seem to have no end to energy.

 

[evince]

I have one suggestion. "IF" you do not want to know the answer, don't ask the question. As all Christians are commanded to give a defense as to why their faith not only rests within their heart but grows with each challenge to that faith. "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, AND ALWAYS BE READY TO GIVE A DEFENSE to WHO ASKS YOU ARE REASON FOR THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU...with meekness and fear." -- 1 Peter 3:15

That's why I address the fools who actually do not want to learn but simply stir up strife....in an attempt to rob others of a faith they themselves do not posses. I guess its true, "misery loves company..." yet.... I am commanded to defend MY FAITH. As for your faith or the lack thereof, that's for you work out....or not, as I have no dog in your personal hunt.

Yes indeed....If you accept physical science as Objective Truth.....the Universe is dying according to the Laws of Physics. Its not a guess its a quantified reality based upon the potential of the elements that make up this physical reality...all of which are commanded by the LAWS OF PHYSICS. As I said.....you're not much on Science are you sport?

Perhaps your "atheistic" cohorts can explain the simple in a method that a 5 year old can comprehend it. www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/us/universe-dying/index.html

you are shaming your religion


this is America

we are allowed to not believe YOUR religion


when we discuss what WE BELIEVE it is not an insult of YOUR beliefs


it is the only way to tell others what we believe and why


you just think people should not have discussions that don't PRAISE what you believe.

I don't believe in a god


that is not an attack on you


its stating what I believe

further discussion of why I came to believe what I believe will have to include why I found god centered religion lacking


others who do not believe what you believe are allowed to discuss what they believe


you see threats everywhere

grow up


and be a better representative of the great philosopher your religion is based on