The Rich and the Poor

Sycamore said:
1. Income =/= happiness. It equals life.
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You have no guarantee of happiness you only have the guarantee to pursue happiness.

You have no guarantee of “life” if you squander it away with bad habits and stupid actions.

You have no guarantee of “liberty” if you promote and vote for BIG corrupt government that violates your “constitutional” contract with government.

2. I'm no expert on the topic, but all the other leftists I've talked to call China state capitalist. Which is an accurate term based on what I know, and the same I use for the US.
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China is not a “Constitutional Republic” with democratically elected representation sworn to uphold, protect and defend a Constitution. China is a “Communist Dictatorship without truly free capitalist markets, but rather highly regulated crony capitalist markets controlled by government.

America is ”supposed” to be a Constitutional Republic with true capitalist markets controlled by constitutional rights, privileges and courts that honor the rule of constitutional law and a level playing field for ALL who participate.

The similarities between China and America today is simply the crony capitalist system devised by corrupt politicians that violate their oath of office and moron voters that sanctify the corruption with their bribed vote.

3. You can rant about this group of people all you'd like. But that still doesn't prove they exist, or are left wing.
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Actually, you and several others on this forum prove that leftist idiocy exist with your uninformed and preposterous rhetoric.

4. Look, I'm not defending government, but you haven't made a case that government is corrupt - only that it infringes upon human nature. And we have a very different understanding of human nature.
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I’m making the case that BIG government infringes on our ”constitutional rights” and privileges, not that it infringes on human nature Goober! Human nature is an infringement on humankind. The world is inhabited by morons! Humans are the stupidest animals on the face of the earth! Some are simply more stupid than others. Human kind has never shown that it can govern itself successfully for any prolonged period of time. Every government fails sooner or later.
 
Sycamore said:
Yea... you didn't read what I wrote, did you? Employers need employees, in fact the whole system does. If labor disappears, the whole system does. Need forces a very much involuntary contract between employee and employer - one where the employee holds no power.

And as for your rhetoric about starting your own company? You go try to support a family on a tiny wage, then take the huge financial risk(especially for low incomers) to start a business. In a country like this, most of them fail.

businesssurvivalsmall.gif

http://smallbiztrends.com/2005/07/business-failure-rates-highest-in.html
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How many succeed under a totalitarian Socialist regime? Got a clue for ya... it's NONE!

You see, you are a confused person. You stated earlier, that "income is a right" and that is not true. In American free market capitalism, the ability to have the opportunity to earn income is a right. This right doesn't exist in your model, it is determined by the ruler or ruling class. No one is just born with the right to assume the fruits of someone else's labor. This contradicts even the principles of Socialism. In a capitalist system, labor is rewarded based on need and value. In your Socialists model, labor is rewarded based on status or class. Poor people, in a capitalist system, can strive to become wealthy, and often do just that. In a socialist system, poor people remain poor, there is no opportunity to succeed.
 
Sycamore said:
A private business can indeed tell you to do something, and you will do it, lest be fired, and loose the ability to generate income. And what happens if you can't generate income? You find another business owner to rent yourself out to, and to order you around. That's the nature of capitalism.
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BTW Goober, you should know that under the capitalist system you have a right to establish a business and operate it by your insane leftist principles by just telling your employees they can just do whatever the fuck they feel like doing. Good Luck With That!!!!
 
evince said:
You either care about your fellow man or you dont.

People who dont care about their fellow man are damaged human beings.

They are a detriment to society and are not normal humans
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Is that one of your character flaws, that you're trying to change with your self-medication?
 
Granule said:
The rich take from the poor because they don't pay 90% in taxes.
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What? The rich already pay a higher percentage of taxes, and of course a much greater amount. So how are they taking from the poor? Do you also think that in order for there to be rich, there must be many poor? Why?
 
Dixie said:
How many succeed under a totalitarian Socialist regime? Got a clue for ya... it's NONE!

You see, you are a confused person. You stated earlier, that "income is a right" and that is not true. In American free market capitalism, the ability to have the opportunity to earn income is a right. This right doesn't exist in your model, it is determined by the ruler or ruling class. No one is just born with the right to assume the fruits of someone else's labor. This contradicts even the principles of Socialism. In a capitalist system, labor is rewarded based on need and value. In your Socialists model, labor is rewarded based on status or class. Poor people, in a capitalist system, can strive to become wealthy, and often do just that. In a socialist system, poor people remain poor, there is no opportunity to succeed.
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Your straw men are as far from the truth as anything. First, I'm not pro big government. And socialists don't advocate for ruling classes. Most don't advocate for social classes at all. So you get off the ground not understanding what socialism is to begin with. Or the US, for that matter. We're not a free market capitalism, we're a state capitalism.
 
Classic Liberal said:
You have no guarantee of happiness you only have the guarantee to pursue happiness.

You have no guarantee of “life” if you squander it away with bad habits and stupid actions.

You have no guarantee of “liberty” if you promote and vote for BIG corrupt government that violates your “constitutional” contract with government.



China is not a “Constitutional Republic” with democratically elected representation sworn to uphold, protect and defend a Constitution. China is a “Communist Dictatorship without truly free capitalist markets, but rather highly regulated crony capitalist markets controlled by government.

America is ”supposed” to be a Constitutional Republic with true capitalist markets controlled by constitutional rights, privileges and courts that honor the rule of constitutional law and a level playing field for ALL who participate.

The similarities between China and America today is simply the crony capitalist system devised by corrupt politicians that violate their oath of office and moron voters that sanctify the corruption with their bribed vote.



Actually, you and several others on this forum prove that leftist idiocy exist with your uninformed and preposterous rhetoric.



I’m making the case that BIG government infringes on our ”constitutional rights” and privileges, not that it infringes on human nature Goober! Human nature is an infringement on humankind. The world is inhabited by morons! Humans are the stupidest animals on the face of the earth! Some are simply more stupid than others. Human kind has never shown that it can govern itself successfully for any prolonged period of time. Every government fails sooner or later.
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The reason corporations outsource to China is their deregulated economy. They couldn't do that if the markets were controlled by a "communist dictatorship" - a government which is impossible, by the way. As for these neo-lefitists, quote some posts, link to some news articles.

In this next bit, you present some really weird opinions. Are you supporting some Darwinist anarchy? Plutocracy? I don't know. What I do know is that humans are not stupid, that we've governed ourselves on some level for all of our existence, and that human nature is inherent. It doesn't, and can't infringe upon anything anymore than reproduction can.
 
Sycamore said:
Yes, but that's a lot more complex than you make it out to be. I do think there're some regulations to be done away with, but some we should keep. Like, for instance, we shouldn't let employers keep working facilities that are a danger to workers, or dump wastes in areas that may cause exposure to the public, or use chemicals that cause harm to the consumer.

Plus, you don't go far enough into the problem. If we just deregulated to lower the cost for new businesses, sure, you'd open the door for those otherwise financially unable to start one, but you'd also have employees and consumers in a worse condition than they previously were. Under vertical management, not everyone can be a business owner. Someone's going to be subject to their will - and often hurt, if we go back to the days before modern regulatory processes.

Then there're monopolies - and the Walmarts of the world - which do a far better job of squeezing out new businesses than regulations.
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circular reasoning'....?
 
DamnYankee said:
What? The rich already pay a higher percentage of taxes, and of course a much greater amount. So how are they taking from the poor? Do you also think that in order for there to be rich, there must be many poor? Why?
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I'm parroting liberal logic. Isn't it beeyootiful?
 
Sycamore said:
That's nowhere near true. I want everyone to exercise control over their likelihoods, and earn a wage that's high enough to keep them out of desperate poverty, not be paid equally.

Where in the world did you get that idea? :shock:
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We have control over our lives to the same degree....everyone CAN'T earn a wage thats high enough to live in comfort unless someone is willing to value their
work to that degree.....Its up to YOU to make yourself as valuable as you can and if you WON'T, why should others suffer higher taxation because of you.....
if you can't, there is already help to feed you and make your life better than you could for yourself.....its the pinheads that think we should provide them with
cellphone service and cable tv that need to wake up and smell the garbage.
 
Sycamore said:
Your straw men are as far from the truth as anything. First, I'm not pro big government. And socialists don't advocate for ruling classes. Most don't advocate for social classes at all. So you get off the ground not understanding what socialism is to begin with. Or the US, for that matter. We're not a free market capitalism, we're a state capitalism.
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This reveals your second fundamental problem, aside from being a total retard, you have a problem comprehending what other people say. I did not say you were pro big government. I did not say Socialists advocate for ruling classes. The argument for the benefits of Socialism will only work if you have classes. Note, I did not say the argument is supported, just that it requires classes to be valid as an argument. Without the distinction of class, there is no basis or need for Socialism. In a free market, free enterprise capitalist system, like ours, every perceived "class" has the same equal opportunity to participate. In that regard, free market capitalism meets all the sated objectives of Socialism or Communism. But this is totally unacceptable to people who want us to operate under a Socialist or Communist system, so they invent this perception of class. Then they promote this idea that class determines the ability to participate in capitalism, which might be true, IF we had classes.

No, we are not "state capitalists" because that is what you advocate. Socialists are "state capitalists" because all capitalism is controlled by the state. Those who have this state authorized power, become the "ruling class" and they make the rules for the rest of society to follow. The common people have no other choice but to tolerate the ruling class, because they control all power, and thus, all opportunity. In a nation where there is no distinction by class, where we are all equal and have equal opportunity to engage in free market capitalism, the poorest of the poor can become wealthy.
 
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