The US is insolvent !

Therefore, a top marginal rate of 39% (clinton era rate) applies to very little of Bill Gates income.

His income and wealth is in the form of investments and stocks. The income primarily coming from dividends, capital gains, and interest on bonds. Which are typically taxed at effective rates between ZERO and 15 percent. That's a lower rate than middle class schmucks like us pay on our payroll wages.


While we're on Bill Gates, let's not forget to factor in the amount of revenue he has personally been responsible for generating in taxes, with Microsoft products sold. Each time a register rang up a Microsoft product, the U.S. Treasury gained revenue in tax. Think about all of the people employed in America, (and abroad) because of Microsoft products. Think of all the people who earn a decent middle-class living, being Microsoft certified technicians, and all the people making nice commission checks each month, for sales of Microsoft services. These things are all a result of Bill Gates being able to invest his capital and make money, which he built a capitalist empire with. This is the kind of entrepreneurial spirit you effectively stifle, with excessive taxation. Instead of a person doing something to generate tons of tax revenue, they invest in "safe bets" or tax sheltered bonds, and produce very little revenue in tax for the government. You are actually proving my point, you just haven't realized it yet.

Rich people, for the most part, got to be rich because they liked to make money. Therefore, just like a person who likes to fish or play golf, you give them an environment to do what they like, and they will do it... thus generating enormous growth in our economy, in exponential ways. However, if you place a price on the activity, just as you would charge a golfer a fee, the net result would naturally be, to produce less of the activity. The higher the fee, the less of the activity you will create. Rich people like to make money, they don't need to make money.
 
Therefore, a top marginal rate of 39% (clinton era rate) applies to very little of Bill Gates income.

His income and wealth is in the form of investments and stocks. The income primarily coming from dividends, capital gains, and interest on bonds. Which are typically taxed at effective rates between ZERO and 15 percent. That's a lower rate than middle class schmucks like us pay on our payroll wages.


While we're on Bill Gates, let's not forget to factor in the amount of revenue he has personally been responsible for generating in taxes, with Microsoft products sold. Each time a register rang up a Microsoft product, the U.S. Treasury gained revenue in tax. Think about all of the people employed in America, (and abroad) because of Microsoft products. Think of all the people who earn a decent middle-class living, being Microsoft certified technicians, and all the people making nice commission checks each month, for sales of Microsoft services. These things are all a result of Bill Gates being able to invest his capital and make money, which he built a capitalist empire with. This is the kind of entrepreneurial spirit you effectively stifle, with excessive taxation. Instead of a person doing something to generate tons of tax revenue, they invest in "safe bets" or tax sheltered bonds, and produce very little revenue in tax for the government. You are actually proving my point, you just haven't realized it yet.

Rich people, for the most part, got to be rich because they liked to make money. Therefore, just like a person who likes to fish or play golf, you give them an environment to do what they like, and they will do it... thus generating enormous growth in our economy, in exponential ways. However, if you place a price on the activity, just as you would charge a golfer a fee, the net result would naturally be, to produce less of the activity. The higher the fee, the less of the activity you will create. Rich people like to make money, they don't need to make money.

again...from very intimate personal observation, I can tell you that percentage increases in the marginal tax rate do not cause rich people to make less money or to want to make less money....in fact, they have the exact opposite effect.
 
again...from very intimate personal observation, I can tell you that percentage increases in the marginal tax rate do not cause rich people to make less money or to want to make less money....in fact, they have the exact opposite effect.

Then why, in your personal intimate opinion, are these increases always resulting in less tax revenue? 'Splain that one!
 
I think you mistake cause with effect....

I only know that the very wealthy people I know and with whom I work and socialize have NEVER let marginal tax rate changes effect their desire to maximize their wealth.
 
Marginal tax rates do not effect only the rich. The idea that because it is dividends means that the rich are the only ones effected is unsound. Many investments from those who are not "rich" will also be effected.

Truly, each time the marginal tax rate has been decreased there has been a surge in revenue. This is because it isn't a magical zero sum game. If the tax rate is punitive those with that type of investment do not realize gains to protect their money from the punitive taxation. This creates a lag in revenue.

Unfortunately we overspent the increase in revenue by a huge margin by following Bush into a spending spree. Clearly the party of fiscal conservatism has turned its back on that particular issue to focus more heavily on the wars and on whether or not gay people get married.


"Truly, each time the marginal tax rate has been decreased there has been a surge in revenue."


“Surge in revenue”. This is a talking point that is repeated so often, that wingnutters take it as gospel.

Unfortunately, the actual data do not support this assertion:



1) From: The President’s Economic Report, 2003

”Although the economy grows in response to tax reductions - it is unlikely to grow so much that lost tax revenue is completely recovered by the higher level of economic activity“

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy04/pdf/2003_erp.pdf


....And Bush's 2003 Economic Report was Spot On:

2) Growth in Federal Revenue - White House website:

2000: 2.025 Trillion
2001: 1.991
2002: 1.853
2003: 1.782
2004: 1.880
2005: 2.153
2006: 2.285 (estimate)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/pdf/hist.pdf

Nearly six years after Bush’s 2001 tax cuts, here we see revenue barely above where it was when Clinton left office in 2000, and not even keeping up with a compounded growth rate in the economy and inflation. If revenue was simply flat-lined at a compounded growth rate similar to inflation and economic growth - say 3% annual - the growth in revenue between 2000 and 2006 should have been: 2.417 Trillion. Under Bush, the estimated revenue in 2006 is actually 2.285 Trillion. Ooops. Far short of revenue growth under Clinton, or even under a flat-lined growth rate equal to inflation or economic growth.

Also, compare the growth in the six years after Clinton’s 1993 Economic growth package, versus the 6 years after Bush’s 2001 Tax and Economic growth package:

-Clinton 1993-1997: Revenue growth up 21%

-Bush 2001-2006: Revenue growth up 13%


Conclusion: Revenue growth was close to double, under the Clinton 1993 economic plan, versus the Bush 2001 economic plan.
 
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"Truly, each time the marginal tax rate has been decreased there has been a surge in revenue."


“Surge in revenue”. This is a talking point that is repeated so often, that wingnutters take it as gospel.

Unfortunately, the actual data do not support this assertion:



1) From: The President’s Economic Report, 2003

”Although the economy grows in response to tax reductions - it is unlikely to grow so much that lost tax revenue is completely recovered by the higher level of economic activity“

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy04/pdf/2003_erp.pdf


....And Bush's 2003 Economic Report was Spot On:

2) Growth in Federal Revenue - White House website:

2000: 2.025 Trillion
2001: 1.991
2002: 1.853
2003: 1.782
2004: 1.880
2005: 2.153
2006: 2.285 (estimate)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/pdf/hist.pdf

Nearly six years after Bush’s 2001 tax cuts, here we see revenue barely above where it was when Clinton left office in 2000, and not even keeping up with a compounded growth rate in the economy and inflation. If revenue was simply flat-lined at a compounded growth rate similar to inflation and economic growth - say 3% annual - the growth in revenue between 2000 and 2006 should have been: 2.417 Trillion. Under Bush, the estimated revenue in 2006 is actually 2.285 Trillion. Ooops. Far short of revenue growth under Clinton, or even under a flat-lined growth rate equal to inflation or economic growth.

Also, compare the growth in the six years after Clinton’s 1993 Economic growth package, versus the 6 years after Bush’s 2001 Tax and Economic growth package:

-Clinton 1993-1997: Revenue growth up 21%

-Bush 2001-2006: Revenue growth up 13%


Conclusion: Revenue growth was close to double, under the Clinton 1993 economic plan, versus the Bush 2001 economic plan.
So, it went higher.. "barely above" does not mean that there was less. Your strawman is already dead. This is inane.

"See it went higher by by 200 billion, but that isn't higher!

LOL. You don't know how pitiful that argument looked. The data supports it. Your own data supports the fact that the revenues went higher with the higher marginal tax rates cuts. Imagine that.

In fact, when the recession ended it went higher each year as investments regained momentum. Now it is higher than ever, without increasing taxes. It wasn't magic. Revenues go higher when marginal rates are lowered.

Conclusion...

When the nation is in recession investment revenues go down. However the lowering of the marginal rate helped keep the recession short and increased revenue in the long run. And it is even supported by your very own data.
 
"Revenue went up" THAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT???

Over a period of years revenue always goes up because the population and the economy always grow. Do you understand inflation and economic growht? Your revenue hasnt' even kept pace with the growth in inflation or economic growth.


the revenue growth under bush has been anemic.

Far less than under Clinton, and far less than if we simply expected revenue to flatline and simply keep pace with average inflation and revenue growth.
 
you asserted the bush tax cuts would cause revenue "to surge".

I haven't checked the dictionary, but I assume "surge" means a dramatic, and quick rise, relative to ambient background conditions.


In contrast to your assertion, the data show that revenue growth under bush has been ANEMIC.

Its the slowest revenue growth in the last couple of decades. Perhaps, the slowest growth since the Great Depression, although I haven't checked it out.


Its not even keeping pace with the average rate of inflation or economic growht


Just like Bush's own 2003 report said: Tax cuts DON'T PAY FOR THEMSELVES.
 
LOL. However it doesn't go up in that rate without either a huge economy or those marginal cuts we've been discussing. They do always go down during a recession, as well as tax cuts being the regular response for them...

This argument is getting tired. Your own data supports my assertion and dismisses yours. Your only argument? The population increased!

LOL. You are plain just getting silly now.
 
you asserted the bush tax cuts would cause revenue "to surge".

I haven't checked the dictionary, but I assume "surge" means a dramatic, and quick rise, relative to ambient background conditions.


In contrast to your assertion, the data show that revenue growth under bush has been ANEMIC.

Its the slowest revenue growth in the last couple of decades. Perhaps, the slowest growth since the Great Depression, although I haven't checked it out.


Its not even keeping pace with the average rate of inflation or economic growht


Just like Bush's own 2003 report said: Tax cuts DON'T PAY FOR THEMSELVES.
LOL. Wrong use of terms. I should have said "increase" rather than "surge", my bad. However it was clear what I was saying as it has been the topic of discussion throughout the thread.

Either way. We have more than enough revenue, we need to cut spending not increase revenue.

You asserted that revenues do not increase during marginal tax rate cuts, it has every time we have cut them so far. And it wasn't magic, it actually takes human nature into the equation rather than pretending that it is some zero sum game. Like the whole, One guy gets rich so you will be poorer... idiocy.

It doesn't work that way.
 
Well thats better.

"Increase" is a fair term. The modern united states has never had more than a few consequetive quarters of negative economic growth, so I'd be SHOCKED if revenue didn't go up after 6 years.

The data actually show that revenue growth since the 2001 tax cuts has been anemic, compared to the growth in revenue under other presidents.
 
Well thats better.

"Increase" is a fair term. The modern united states has never had more than a few consequetive quarters of negative economic growth, so I'd be SHOCKED if revenue didn't go up after 6 years.

The data actually show that revenue growth since the 2001 tax cuts has been anemic, compared to the growth in revenue under other presidents.
The economy has been relatively anemic as well. With continued sky-is-falling reports of real estate bubbles bursting, of economic downfall, etc. It gets very hard for an economy to grow.

Although I agree that Real Estate is currently overvalued and that it likely will see a downturn, reports of doom because of it is a bit overplayed.
 
It isn't my argument that we should cut more taxes. It is my argument that we need to pay far more attention to spending than to taxes at this point in time.
 
Well thats better.

"Increase" is a fair term. The modern united states has never had more than a few consequetive quarters of negative economic growth, so I'd be SHOCKED if revenue didn't go up after 6 years.

The data actually show that revenue growth since the 2001 tax cuts has been anemic, compared to the growth in revenue under other presidents.

Yes, ANEMIC

Growth in revenue, first six years of President's term:

LBJ: 44% growth in revenue
Nixon: 33% growth
Reagan: 30% growth
Clinton: 27% growth
GW Bush: 13% growth in revenue.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/pdf/hist.pdf




Bush's tax cuts ain't creating a "surge in revenue". I see this "surge" term used all the time in the wingnut blogosphere. It just ain't true.



And worst of all, Bush is spending like a drunken sailor, and doesn't have the revenue growth to justify it.

The other presidents, were fiscally WAY more responsible in balancing revenue and spending.
 
Imho...

the US has been insolvent since we went off the Gold standard and started issuing IOU's as money...the rest of this argument is just symantics...;)
 
It isn't my argument that we should cut more taxes. It is my argument that we need to pay far more attention to spending than to taxes at this point in time.


I like tax cuts. When we can afford them, and when they are actually structured to promote consumption, investment, and economic growth, without causing us to go on a borrowing spree.
 
again...from very intimate personal observation, I can tell you that percentage increases in the marginal tax rate do not cause rich people to make less money or to want to make less money....in fact, they have the exact opposite effect.

Then why, in your personal intimate opinion, are these increases always resulting in less tax revenue? 'Splain that one!


and you need to back up that "always resulting" with some non-partisan links....
 
and you need to back up that "always resulting" with some non-partisan links....

No, I don't need to back anything up, just like a rich person doesn't need to make an income. What I stated is a fact, and always has been a fact. If I said the sun will rise in the east this morning, I don't need to back that fact up, and you are free to believe whatever you wish.

Prissy wants to be cute with the numbers, but the fact is, the revenues from TMR taxpayers increased following the Bush tax cuts, just as they always do when there have been tax cuts in the past. The overall tax revenue also showed growth continually, through a recession, 9/11, massive corporate scandals, lack of confidence in the market, and the dot com bubble burst ...not to mention, two wars. Imagine what kind of growth would have resulted from the tax cuts, had those things not occurred? If you just want to be an ignorant idiot and believe the liberal myths, that's up to you too.

Again, for the slow... taxing something which is not a necessity (rich people's income), excessively, will never produce more of it. NE-VER! Got it?

Tax them fairly, respect the fact that they have the right, in America, to make as much money as they please, and stop allowing your petty jealousy make you believe in ghosts that do not exist. As long as the rich old farts are spending their money to make more money, the economy is flourishing, the revenues are soaring. Damo and Beefy are right, we don't have a revenue problem, and IF we DID have a revenue problem, the answer would be, to DROP the TMR, not increase it! That would produce more revenue in taxes, as history has proven over and over again.

Like I said, I understand why simpletons who have no understanding of the economy, would buy into the liberal knee-jerk emotive appeal of soaking the rich bastards to benefit the poor... I just can't figure out how people who claim to be so brilliant, could be so utterly ignorant of history and basic economic principle. It's as if you have an Agenda of Stupidity going, and you just can't make yourself get off. It's been really sad to watch, but curiously entertaining. :o
 
I just can't figure out how people who claim to be so brilliant, could be so utterly ignorant of history and basic economic principle. It's as if you have an Agenda of Stupidity going, and you just can't make yourself get off. It's been really sad to watch, but curiously entertaining. :o

that's what I feel when people claim that tax free municpal bonds do not generate economic activity, but somehow - magically - only income.

I am saying quite clearly that you are lying about the fact that tax revenues always go down when tax rates are raised... just like you were lying about what political party controlled the congress in 1998.
 
DIXIE: "and IF we DID have a revenue problem, the answer would be, to DROP the TMR, not increase it! That would produce more revenue in taxes, as history has proven over and over again."


Wrong again Eistein. Bush's 2001 tax cuts have produced the most anemic growth in revenue in modern american history.

Now, over the period of a few years revenue always goes up due to population growth and growth in the economy. The modern united states has never had more than a few consequetive quarters of negative economic growth, and the population growth is always positive.

The only fair comparison, is how the relative rate of growth of revenue compares for a cut in the TMR versus an increase in the TMR


-Clinton 1993 Economic Plan
Growth of revenue in first 5 years, 1993-1998: 33% growth in revenue

-Bush 2001 Tax cut Plan
Growth of revenue in first 5 years, 2001-2006: 13% growth in revenue

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/pdf/hist.pdf


The actual data show bush's tax cuts did not pay for itelf, did not create a "surge" in revenue", and actully created the most anemic rate of growth in revenue in modern history. Possibly since the great depression.
 
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