The US is insolvent !

and the bill was not to get the Line Item Veto established as law, but a constitutional amendment.... as stated earlier, it HAD been established as law during the Clinton administration.

Yes, this is what I stated before, the Democrats killed the legislation to make it an Amendment, following the SC ruling. But now that we hear from Prissy how all the Democrats are in favor of it, I'm sure we'll see it get passed ASAP! Every Reagan Conservative I know, has always been in favor of it, so you've got our support!
 
Ask your republican congresmen why it didn't pass. You've had control of all branches of government for six years


Now, if we had had a President Kerry, here is his position:


NY Sun

"It's no secret that President Bush and I don't agree on much, but I fully support giving him the line-item veto. I'm going to introduce this legislation, Congress should immediately pass it, and I want to see President Bush use this veto pen to get tough on wasteful spending. Under this Republican-led House and Senate, pork barrel spending has gone through the roof," Mr. Kerry said yesterday, mentioning money wasted on the "bridge to nowhere" in Alaska and "research to enhance the flavor of roasted peanuts." -- John Kerry



http://www.nysun.com/article/28686
 
Republicans controlled congress in 1998. Both house and senate. They've controlled it since 1994

They didn't control the Senate in 2000. I was off a couple of years. Regardless, to pass a bill for an Amendment, you need a supermajority... Republicans haven't had that, have they?
 
Republicans controlled congress in 1998. Both house and senate. They've controlled it since 1994

They didn't control the Senate in 2000. I was off a couple of years. Regardless, to pass a bill for an Amendment, you need a supermajority... Republicans haven't had that, have they?


Presidents from Ronald Reagan, to Poppy Bush, to Bill Clinton have had the skill to cobble together bipartisan coalitions to get things passed.

The question you have to ask yourself is: Why can't your president? Is he incompetent?
 
Dixie...asked and answered. next?

tell me again how investing in the stock market does not grow the economy?

tell me again how you think that the return on venture capital is taxed diffferently than the return on blue chips....


Yeah, answered with a little trickery.

Investing in the stock market doesn't grow the economy like building capitalist enterprise, it's not even remotely close in terms of actual dollars produced or taxes raised.

I have never told you how returns are taxed differently, that is a presumption you made all on your own. I am not arguing tax law or investments, you are. I am arguing economics. Tell us again, what happens when you tax something that isn't a necessity?
 
Presidents from Ronald Reagan, to Poppy Bush, to Bill Clinton have had the skill to cobble together bipartisan coalitions to get things passed.

The question you have to ask yourself is: Why can't your president? Is he incompetent?


Apparently so, and it's a good thing he isn't running anymore, I don't think I could vote for him again. Regardless of who the president is, it's good to know a majority of pinheads now support the line-item veto! That's the best news I've had all day! Next thing you know, they will be supporting elimination of the death tax!
 
Yeah, answered with a little trickery.

Investing in the stock market doesn't grow the economy like building capitalist enterprise, it's not even remotely close in terms of actual dollars produced or taxes raised.

I have never told you how returns are taxed differently, that is a presumption you made all on your own. I am not arguing tax law or investments, you are. I am arguing economics. Tell us again, what happens when you tax something that isn't a necessity?


Dixie ...you said:

"Will their investments lead to real growth in the economy? That is the question here, not whether rich people will invest their money, they will all invest their money in something, unless they put it in a mattress. If they are not investing in capitalist enterprises, and things they can make income profit from, it will not really create much growth in the economy, there is nothing to buy and sell to produce a profit. A new fire station or library, doesn't generate revenue, it doesn't create a profit, it isn't a capitalist venture of any kind, it provides a municipal service, and that is all nice and good, it just doesn't stimulate the economy much."

YOu have said that rich people would not invest in capitalist enterprises but would, instead, put money in the stock market..... what the fuck does that mean and what is it, if it is not some differentiation in tax policy, that would cause some rich person to chose between venture capital investment and blue chip investment? Risk? I would hope so...but the risk of venture capital is always there, and, in fact, is rewarded by our tax laws that allow investment in many higher risk economic ventures to be sheltered and taxed LESS than blue chip investments, which are taxed, themselves, at a rate less than the marginal tax rate on income that we have been talking about. Do you have a fucking clue what you are talking about? Of course you don't. Your grasp of economics and of the investment practices of wealthy Americans is as limited as your grasp of history wherein you claimed to have the democrats in control of congress in '98. You are a blowhard and a fraud and I get an almost sinful amount of pleasure rubbing your nose in your own self inflicted and self proclaimed inadequacies.
 
YOu have said that rich people would not invest in capitalist enterprises but would, instead, put money in the stock market..... what the fuck does that mean and what is it, if it is not some differentiation in tax policy, that would cause some rich person to chose between venture capital investment and blue chip investment? Risk?

I have said, and you have pretty much confirmed, that if rich people are taxed excessively on their income earned from a business venture, they will find a way to not be taxed by not making an earning, and instead, investing in stocks, as opposed to capitalist ventures. We've established, rich people have plenty of options of investment to "make money" besides earning an income, and they don't really need to earn an income. We both agree, tax on something that isn't needed, is pointless, right? I mean, I think we're done here! We agree. More taxation on TMR will result in less revenue, why would you want that?
 
YOu have said that rich people would not invest in capitalist enterprises but would, instead, put money in the stock market..... what the fuck does that mean and what is it, if it is not some differentiation in tax policy, that would cause some rich person to chose between venture capital investment and blue chip investment? Risk?

I have said, and you have pretty much confirmed, that if rich people are taxed excessively on their income earned from a business venture, they will find a way to not be taxed by not making an earning, and instead, investing in stocks, as opposed to capitalist ventures. We've established, rich people have plenty of options of investment to "make money" besides earning an income, and they don't really need to earn an income. We both agree, tax on something that isn't needed, is pointless, right? I mean, I think we're done here! We agree. More taxation on TMR will result in less revenue, why would you want that?


and why do you think that returns on investments in the stock market are taxed less - as opposed to more - than investments in venture capital?
 
and why do you think that returns on investments in the stock market are taxed less - as opposed to more - than investments in venture capital?

I'm not involved in that argument, I don't know if they are or aren't and it hasn't been my point. You suggested that rich people had plenty of options for investment, that didn't result in taxable profit and gains, associated with the TMR taxpayer. You mentioned municipal bonds as an example, another pinhead mentioned these were little or no taxation at all... which all illustrates my point brilliantly, that rich people have a multitude of ways to 'make money' without earning much of an 'income' in taxable wages.

The increase on the TMR, proposed by yourself and other pinheads in this thread, is what the debate has become here, not whether rich people can find alternative investments to avoid your taxation. Look, it doesn't matter how the rich person is earning income, whether it's because he is a very opportunistic investor, and manages to make a fortune playing the market, or if he builds his own widget factory and revolutionizes widgetmaking forever! Either way you look at it, the more you tax this persons earnings, the more you restrict revenue, because he doesn't have to earn money, he is rich. It doesn't matter if we are talking about taxing his earnings from stock dividends, or taxing his earnings from income, taxing it will produce less of it, which will produce less revenue. Subsequently, tax on income effects capitalist business ventures, which drive the economy far more than stocks or municipal bonds and securities. You want to tax their olives? They will put those little onions in their martini's, they don't have to pay your taxes!
 

The increase on the TMR, proposed by yourself and other pinheads in this thread, is what the debate has become here, not whether rich people can find alternative investments to avoid your taxation. Look, it doesn't matter how the rich person is earning income, whether it's because he is a very opportunistic investor, and manages to make a fortune playing the market, or if he builds his own widget factory and revolutionizes widgetmaking forever! Either way you look at it, the more you tax this persons earnings, the more you restrict revenue, because he doesn't have to earn money, he is rich. It doesn't matter if we are talking about taxing his earnings from stock dividends, or taxing his earnings from income, taxing it will produce less of it, which will produce less revenue. Subsequently, tax on income effects capitalist business ventures, which drive the economy far more than stocks or municipal bonds and securities. You want to tax their olives? They will put those little onions in their martini's, they don't have to pay your taxes!


At the core of your misunderstanding is the flawed concept that because rich people don't HAVE to make money, that they will, for some reason, chose NOT to if the marginal tax rate on income increases. An increase in marginal tax rate will not cause rich people to churn less of their money into the economy.... some of it will be ddiverted into social programs funded by taxes, but the money will all get into the economy...and rich people will ALWAYS chose to make more money, even if a portion of the money they make will go to Uncle Sam.... and, municipal bonds, or oil exploration leases, or just IRA's and Roths - any sort of tax sheltered equity instrument - churns money back into the economy.

I don't mean to be be elitist, but your flawed misconceptions about the motivations and investment behaviors of the rich arise from the fact that you have never been and are not now rich. I am not RICH now... but I grew up in a very wealthy family. I have watched my father's investment activities for the better part of a half a century.... he has made a boatload of money and always is looking for ways to make more. When the marginal tax rate was much much higher than it is today, he just worked harder at it and tried to make even more to keep the growth of wealth on track regardless of how much he had to give the government... Since he has gone into a nursing home, my brother and I have taken over the management of his portfolio, and we would be fools to alter his investment strategies which keep a lot of his assets tied to and assisting in the growth of the American economy.
 
So how does tax cuts for the rich promote spending dix ? They were spending the same before their cut. Now a real cut on the middle class woudl be better to get more money spent, they seem to spend 150% of their income.

How do tax cuts for the rich promote spending? Are you serious with this question? Never mind... of course you are, you're a liberal! Okay, let me try to explain it to your pinhead ass... First thing, forget the simplistic idea you have formed inside your head, that the only way for a tax cut to promote spending, is if the rich person actually spends the extra money from their tax cut. This is certainly part of the way spending is promoted, but it misses the broader and more important picture. Most rich people, and people in general, do not think in terms of what they would have payed in taxes. When you get a $1,200 tax refund, you don't think of it as $1,000 less than you would have gotten under a proposed plan which failed. You don't think of it as $200 more than you would have gotten under the old tax plan. You merely realize you have a $1,200 'windfall' and determine what to do with it. What might have been, has absolutely no impact on your decision of what to do with the money. So, wealthy people who are actually paying taxes and not getting a refund, look at things from the same perspective, what might have been is no factor on how they make their decisions now. They look at what they made last year, after the taxes, and they decide whether they are managing their money wisely, given the current parameters and taxation.

Now... let's say, this rich person who didn't really need to make an "income" from a business, had always dreamed of opening a business, and after Reagan cut the TMR, he decided to 'realize the dream' and do it. He has invested a large chunk of his money into the venture... he has employed a staff... he has constructed a building... he has bought advertising... a company car... had business cards printed... bought insurance for his business and his employees... paid contractors for all sorts of related work... all of these things grew the economy, and in the end, he is doing fairly well, his income last year was at the TMR. He is happy, and has no intentions of changing a thing, just continuing to hire people and expand his dream, maybe build a small commercial empire, and pass it on to his son... He's just having fun making money and doing what he likes to do.

Suddenly, we introduce the envy-stricken knee-jerk liberal who's gulped the class warfare koolaid, and thinks he needs to be taxed 50% on his earnings! So, instead of making $9 million, he is only going to make $6 million this year. As we've established, he is not going to dwell on what might have been, he will make decisions on how to proceed from here... okay, with $3 million less to spend than before, it's easy to conclude he will spend less. The business is doing okay, he doesn't need to put any more money into expanding it, he's comfortable with the size where it is, and with the new tax law, he really has no incentive to make more money. Do you think it's more likely, he will continue to expand the economy and grow his business, taking the $3 million deficit from his personal family budget, or would he choose to continue living the life he is accustomed to, and take the $3 million deficit off the budget for the business? In this scenario, he might not decide to just sell the business and cash out, it's his dream... the legacy... leave it to his sons.. etc... but maybe he decides, instead of him making the TMR, he should employ his wife and two teenage sons, and split his "income" amongst the entire family, then they can file separately and avoid the TMR? Maybe he decides to restructure his business, so that he doesn't actually get much of an "income" from it, and his former income is going into the business budget now, which he can write off... in either case, the increase in tax has resulted in an economic lack of growth, and a loss in revenue from taxes.

You can use any example you like, the principle remains the same, rich people do not have to earn an income. That's just a simple fact you need to try hard to understand here, because it is the foundation of my position, and the reason you are not comprehending it. If we tax rich people's incomes excessively, they will make less incomes, and we will receive less revenue in tax. Furthermore, if they make less income, they will spend less... that is just common sense, and any one should be able to understand this basic principle. If rich people aren't spending money, this means someone is not gaining money from the transaction... again, a very basic principle. If money isn't gained, it can't be taxed, thus no revenue is being generated. In business, if money isn't being gained, there will be no expansion or growth, and if money is being lost, there will be negative growth or downsizing.

You can't tax the supply side of capitalism. It's impossible to do. Corporations do not "pay" tax, consumers do. Most corporations, I don't care what you say, are owned, operated, or trusted to "rich people" who make decisions based on the bottom line of the almighty dollar. The more money you try to take from these people, the more the consumer is going to ultimately pay, in the capitalist market, as a result. This can't be avoided in a capitalist society, the only hope for preventing it, is socialism or communism.
 
Suddenly, we introduce the envy-stricken knee-jerk liberal who's gulped the class warfare koolaid, and thinks he needs to be taxed 50% on his earnings! So, instead of making $9 million, he is only going to make $6 million this year.




Dixie, there is hardly anyone is america who makes $9 million in payroll wages.

Bill Gates salary at Microsoft in only $900 thousand a year in wages.


NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, the world's richest man, got a modest pay raise over the last year, according to a company filing.

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates saw only a modest rise in pay but a big jump in dividend payments during the company's last fiscal year.

Gates, who is also the company's chief software architect, received $901,667 in salary and bonus from the company for the fiscal year ended June 30, the company revealed in its proxy filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. That's up 4.4 percent from the year earlier total in salary and bonus.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/21/technology/gates_pay/



Therefore, a top marginal rate of 39% (clinton era rate) applies to very little of Bill Gates income.

His income and wealth is in the form of investments and stocks. The income primarily coming from dividends, capital gains, and interest on bonds. Which are typically taxed at effective rates between ZERO and 15 percent. That's a lower rate than middle class schmucks like us pay on our payroll wages.


Where are you getting this 50% tax CRAP?
 
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Suddenly, we introduce the envy-stricken knee-jerk liberal who's gulped the class warfare koolaid, and thinks he needs to be taxed 50% on his earnings! So, instead of making $9 million, he is only going to make $6 million this year.




Dixie, there is hardly anyone is america who makes $9 million in payroll wages.

Bill Gates salary at Microsoft in only $900 thousand a year in wages.


NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, the world's richest man, got a modest pay raise over the last year, according to a company filing.

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates saw only a modest rise in pay but a big jump in dividend payments during the company's last fiscal year.

Gates, who is also the company's chief software architect, received $901,667 in salary and bonus from the company for the fiscal year ended June 30, the company revealed in its proxy filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. That's up 4.4 percent from the year earlier total in salary and bonus.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/09/21/technology/gates_pay/



Therefore, a top marginal rate of 39% (clinton era rate) applies to very little of Bill Gates income.

His income and wealth is in the form of investments and stocks. The income primarily coming from dividends, capital gains, and interest on bonds. Which are typically taxed at effective rates between ZERO and 15 percent. That's a lower rate than middle class schmucks like us pay on our payroll wages.


Where are you getting this 50% tax CRAP?


Bill Gates salary was 900 thousand a year.

Bill Gates total income was about $3.3 billion last year. Primarily from dividends which are taxed at an effective rate of about 15%

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Sto...A584FF}&source=blq/yhoo&dist=yhoo&siteid=yhoo



Simple Mathematics 101 - A Lesson for Dixie


1) The top marginal rate of 39% (Clinton era) only applies to payroll income over 350k/year. So, only Bill Gates' wages between 350k and 900k are subject to the 39% TMR.


2) So, about 600,000 dollars of Bill Gates total income is potentially subject to the top marginal tax rate.

3) Which works out to was less than 0.02% of Bill Gates total income is subject to the top marginal tax rate on wages



Bill Gates is HARDLY EFFECTED AT ALL, by a tiny incremental rate increase in the TMR.
 
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Marginal tax rates do not effect only the rich. The idea that because it is dividends means that the rich are the only ones effected is unsound. Many investments from those who are not "rich" will also be effected.

Truly, each time the marginal tax rate has been decreased there has been a surge in revenue. This is because it isn't a magical zero sum game. If the tax rate is punitive those with that type of investment do not realize gains to protect their money from the punitive taxation. This creates a lag in revenue.

Unfortunately we overspent the increase in revenue by a huge margin by following Bush into a spending spree. Clearly the party of fiscal conservatism has turned its back on that particular issue to focus more heavily on the wars and on whether or not gay people get married.
 
Therefore, a top marginal rate of 39% (clinton era rate) applies to very little of Bill Gates income.

His income and wealth is in the form of investments and stocks. The income primarily coming from dividends, capital gains, and interest on bonds. Which are typically taxed at effective rates between ZERO and 15 percent. That's a lower rate than middle class schmucks like us pay on our payroll wages.


Exactly, and if you tax him more, he will pay even less, because he will "earn" even less "income" for you to tax at 39%. If you tax his stock dividends, he will structure his finances, so as to not make money that way as well. If you tax his olives, he will find ways to do without olives. It doesn't matter, the principle is the same across the board, the more you tax something that isn't a necessity, the less you will cause it to be produced. Rich people don't need to make money, they already have money. Taxing what they earn excessively, is like feeding your doberman rat poison, it's not going to make him any meaner, but it most certainly will make him eat less. If you are interested in gaining more tax revenue, it would seem you would be advocating a tax cut, not an increase. This has historically proven to increase revenues.
 
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