The whore of Babylon

MASON said:
That doesn't mean Rev 17-18 are 1st century events!
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Sure it does.

According to Isaiah 54:5, Israel was in a marriage covenant with God. However, Jerusalem committed adultery against her God, spiritual husband and king by killing the Messiah and His people and declaring Caesar, the beast, her king instead during Christ’s crucifixion: “We have no king but Caesar!” (John 19:15).

The expression “once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss” is resurrection imagery. Rome, the beast, metaphorically died with Nero Caesar and rose from the dead with the ascension of the Flavians, Caesar Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. Vespasian and his two sons, Titus and Domitian, were all crowned Caesar at the same time and together revived the Roman Empire by putting an end to the civil war after Nero’s death and the war with Israel.
 
kudzu said:
Sure it does.

According to Isaiah 54:5, Israel was in a marriage covenant with God. However, Jerusalem committed adultery against her God, spiritual husband and king by killing the Messiah and His people and declaring Caesar, the beast, her king instead during Christ’s crucifixion: “We have no king but Caesar!” (John 19:15).

The expression “once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss” is resurrection imagery. Rome, the beast, metaphorically died with Nero Caesar and rose from the dead with the ascension of the Flavians, Caesar Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. Vespasian and his two sons, Titus and Domitian, were all crowned Caesar at the same time and together revived the Roman Empire by putting an end to the civil war after Nero’s death and the war with Israel.
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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Is that first century too?
 
The word "rapture" never appears anywhere in the Bible.

The concept of a "rapture" has only been recently (within the last two hundred or so years) created by Dispensational theologians.

The idea of a "rapture" implies that believers would be taken away before the Second Coming.

This is dirrectly in opposition to Christ comparing his return with "the days of Noah" - see Matthew 24.

In the days of Noah, the unrighteous were taken away by the waters of the flood, and the righteous remained and were saved - this is in clear opposition with the teachings of a "rapture."

The doctrine of "rapture" is based on a single Bible passage, which is 1 Thess. 4:13-17. This passage does not seem to teach a physical taking away of believers (as in believers' bodies floating up into the skies).
 
christiefan915 said:
You are pond scum. No misspelling there.
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More on the rapture....

Such an event would be unfeasible for several reasons:

It would serve no purpose to believers and it would contradict the prayer of Jesus in John 17:15: "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."

It does not spiritually benefit believers. Salvation is a spiritual matter, in that it does not necessarily involve one's physical delivery from danger, rather it involves a spiritual delivery from eternal destruction into eternal presence of God.

The scripture that says “we shall meet him in the air.” Is easily explainable. The word “meet” I will explain in a minute. The word “air” means spiritual realm. When Jesus came back he judged the sinners, but brought his presence in the spiritual air back to his believers that was lost in the garden of Eden and that was spiritual life. Paul uses the word when taken in its normal, technical sense as used and understood in the first century world, negates the idea of a removal of Christians from the earth.

It negates the idea of end time events to take place in the future. Here is why, the terms parousia and apantesis which is the strongs word for “meet,” were used in the ancient world to speak of a king or royal dignitary that was making a visit to a given city. As he approched that city for his visit parousia (coming) the citizens of that city, being watchful for him, would, when his entourage was cited. Leave their city and go out to “meet” (apantesis) him. They would then escort him back to their city. The city was the destination of the dignitary. It was the location of the parousia he was not coming to remove the citizens of the city. He came to visit or stay with them.

Needless to say, if parousia and apantesis are being used in Thessalonians in their technical sense, then Paul was not predicting the coming of Christ to take the church off the earth. Rather, he was coming to be with his saints. Jesus Christ their king, was coming back, to dwell within his new covenant people, and they in turn would dwell within him and the new Jerusalum heavenly city, which was the church the bride of Christ.

The "rapture" should therefore be equated with the "resurrection" of believers which had now come into the presence (parousia) of Christ, bringing life, justice and deliverance to all.

http://apostolicpreterist.com/Preterist_1st_Thess_4.html
 
kudzu said:
More on the rapture....

Such an event would be unfeasible for several reasons:

It would serve no purpose to believers and it would contradict the prayer of Jesus in John 17:15: "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."

It does not spiritually benefit believers. Salvation is a spiritual matter, in that it does not necessarily involve one's physical delivery from danger, rather it involves a spiritual delivery from eternal destruction into eternal presence of God.

The scripture that says “we shall meet him in the air.” Is easily explainable. The word “meet” I will explain in a minute. The word “air” means spiritual realm. When Jesus came back he judged the sinners, but brought his presence in the spiritual air back to his believers that was lost in the garden of Eden and that was spiritual life. Paul uses the word when taken in its normal, technical sense as used and understood in the first century world, negates the idea of a removal of Christians from the earth.

It negates the idea of end time events to take place in the future. Here is why, the terms parousia and apantesis which is the strongs word for “meet,” were used in the ancient world to speak of a king or royal dignitary that was making a visit to a given city. As he approched that city for his visit parousia (coming) the citizens of that city, being watchful for him, would, when his entourage was cited. Leave their city and go out to “meet” (apantesis) him. They would then escort him back to their city. The city was the destination of the dignitary. It was the location of the parousia he was not coming to remove the citizens of the city. He came to visit or stay with them.

Needless to say, if parousia and apantesis are being used in Thessalonians in their technical sense, then Paul was not predicting the coming of Christ to take the church off the earth. Rather, he was coming to be with his saints. Jesus Christ their king, was coming back, to dwell within his new covenant people, and they in turn would dwell within him and the new Jerusalum heavenly city, which was the church the bride of Christ.

The "rapture" should therefore be equated with the "resurrection" of believers which had now come into the presence (parousia) of Christ, bringing life, justice and deliverance to all.

http://apostolicpreterist.com/Preterist_1st_Thess_4.html
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Are you an atheist?
 
Anne Frank said:
Then tell us when 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 was fulfilled.
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It is a matter of historical record (Josephus, Eusebius, Tacitus and the Talmud) that the trumpets, voices of angels and angelic activity were seen and heard in the time leading up to and during the destruction of Jerusalem.

Unfortunately, many Christians are just not aware of this. They are not being taught this by current (predominantly-futurist) clergy.

The "catching-up" (1 Thess. 4:17) or "gathering" (Matt. 24:31) was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the Gentile followers were transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel.

This was accomplished at the same time the old Temple based Israel was dissolved at A.D. 70. The meeting-place is the heavenly places in Christ – the spiritual kingdom.

Additionally, Jesus told the new "Christians" to flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation.. and they did. They went to Pella.
 
kudzu said:
It is a matter of historical record (Josephus, Eusebius, Tacitus and the Talmud) that the trumpets, voices of angels and angelic activity were seen and heard in the time leading up to and during the destruction of Jerusalem.

Unfortunately, many Christians are just not aware of this. They are not being taught this by current (predominantly-futurist) clergy.

The "catching-up" (1 Thess. 4:17) or "gathering" (Matt. 24:31) was accomplished when the faithful remnant of Jewish believers with the Gentile followers were transformed (and transferred) into Christ's new spiritual Israel.

This was accomplished at the same time the old Temple based Israel was dissolved at A.D. 70. The meeting-place is the heavenly places in Christ – the spiritual kingdom.

Additionally, Jesus told the new "Christians" to flee to the mountains to avoid the tribulation.. and they did. They went to Pella.
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Not even close
 
kudzu said:
More on the rapture....

Such an event would be unfeasible for several reasons:

It would serve no purpose to believers and it would contradict the prayer of Jesus in John 17:15: "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."

It does not spiritually benefit believers. Salvation is a spiritual matter, in that it does not necessarily involve one's physical delivery from danger, rather it involves a spiritual delivery from eternal destruction into eternal presence of God.

The scripture that says “we shall meet him in the air.” Is easily explainable. The word “meet” I will explain in a minute. The word “air” means spiritual realm. When Jesus came back he judged the sinners, but brought his presence in the spiritual air back to his believers that was lost in the garden of Eden and that was spiritual life. Paul uses the word when taken in its normal, technical sense as used and understood in the first century world, negates the idea of a removal of Christians from the earth.

It negates the idea of end time events to take place in the future. Here is why, the terms parousia and apantesis which is the strongs word for “meet,” were used in the ancient world to speak of a king or royal dignitary that was making a visit to a given city. As he approched that city for his visit parousia (coming) the citizens of that city, being watchful for him, would, when his entourage was cited. Leave their city and go out to “meet” (apantesis) him. They would then escort him back to their city. The city was the destination of the dignitary. It was the location of the parousia he was not coming to remove the citizens of the city. He came to visit or stay with them.

Needless to say, if parousia and apantesis are being used in Thessalonians in their technical sense, then Paul was not predicting the coming of Christ to take the church off the earth. Rather, he was coming to be with his saints. Jesus Christ their king, was coming back, to dwell within his new covenant people, and they in turn would dwell within him and the new Jerusalum heavenly city, which was the church the bride of Christ.

The "rapture" should therefore be equated with the "resurrection" of believers which had now come into the presence (parousia) of Christ, bringing life, justice and deliverance to all.

http://apostolicpreterist.com/Preterist_1st_Thess_4.html
Click to expand...

"And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we, who are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with HIM in the clouds...and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

If this doesn't describe the rapture, then what the heck is it talking about?
 
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