Tire-gauge gate, part deux

[Topspin]

thanks bro, more reason for me to pump Obama

 

[Bonestorm]

So, are you saying that the plan wasn't implemented? That maybe what I said actually did relate to actual reality?

Thanks, I'm glad you admit that I am right. And again, Obama did not, until very recently, elect to speak on drilling. Now it is "limited drilling" and later even more compromise will be reached. Your pretense and attempt at spin notwithstanding. How I described it, is exactly what you repeat.

Thanks for playing it, but the pretend outrage suit isn't the trump this round.

As I said before, I think both plans show that they understand that they'll give ground on the side each plan overstates (McCain in Drilling, Obama in the tax breaks for alternate energy) while they also understand that the other side will be strengthened. This shows that both are investing completely in the political reality of compromise. When it is first introduced neither will pass, but after it is changed by compromise what will result will be between the two plans, it will include drilling, it will include investment in alternate energy at a high level.

And if we are smart it should include the following:

1. Open-sourced vehicles that can begin an actual competition at the pump.
2. Nuclear energy for electricity that will lower the demand for Nat. Gas for electricity and allow that Nat. Gas to be used in vehicles.
3. A drive to lower demand for oil itself through bridged alternatives (usually still carbon-based in the interim before the next gen sources are discovered or invented).
4. A national program drive towards alternative energy sources and a plan to reduce dependency on the bridge sources once the alternative has been reached.

You're full of shit for any number of reasons, not least of which is talking up the Lexington Project as a "Manhattan Project'-style project that . . . has far more meat on it than any previous plan," which it isn't. At all. Something you would realize if you actually read what it says. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you could provide some specifics?

But I digress, the bottom line is that there are two proposals. One focuses on drilling and nuclear as the answer. The other focuses on robust alternative energy development, efficiency improvements and conservation as the answer.

We can pretend that we can pick and choose what we like from each and develop our own little fantasy plans that no one is proposing, but that's not reality. The reality is that there are two competing proposals from the two competing candidates. Where I'm sitting, Obama's is vastly superior to McCain's.

 

[Damocles]

You're full of shit for any number of reasons, not least of which is talking up the Lexington Project as a "Manhattan Project'-style project that . . . has far more meat on it than any previous plan," which it isn't. At all. Something you would realize if you actually read what it says. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you could provide some specifics?

But I digress, the bottom line is that there are two proposals. One focuses on drilling and nuclear as the answer. The other focuses on robust alternative energy development, efficiency improvements and conservation as the answer.

We can pretend that we can pick and choose what we like from each and develop our own little fantasy plans that no one is proposing, but that's not reality. The reality is that there are two competing proposals from the two competing candidates. Where I'm sitting, Obama's is vastly superior to McCain's.

I said than any program that has been previously implemented. Either you don't know the meaning of words or are deliberately dishonest about what you read.

As for specifics, you either lied about reading McCain's proposals or are looking through those partisan glasses again.

http://www.johnmccain.com//Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm

Read all of it. Then tell me that there aren't specifics there. Just a warning, it is longer than Obama's plan on that pdf you posted. There is more to his than you attempt to portray.

One of the main items I like to outline is the far more reaching strength built into the bridge between now and when alternative sources can be implemented. You know, the part where Obama barely suggests a tiny bit of drilling.

And, one more time for the diligently dishonest, I believe that both of the Senators understand that either bill will go through a compromise process before passing Congress and the Senate, that Obama's larger reach in R&D will be shrunk in that process and the "bridge" portion (my own word there) will be strengthened in that process. Or, if McCain prevails, the opposite will take effect, the Nuclear and drilling will be shrunk while the R&D portion will gain strength in the compromise process.

From where I stand I prefer McCain's plan to give tax breaks towards the R&D while implementing a stronger bridge to get us off the oil teat more quickly during the interim period. But that is neither here nor there, I still won't be voting for McCain.

I understand you prefer Obama's plan better, and that is fine. But you preferring that plan doesn't change my opinion that both plans appear to me to understand that a compromise will be reached in the congress and to actually plan for that by overstating what they believe to be of larger importance while leaving room on the other end for that compromise.

I personally am not voting for either of them so their plans are viewed differently by myself than you who are directly projecting your own partisan view onto mine and not actually reading my words.

 

[leaningright]

I personally am not voting for either of them so their plans are viewed differently by myself than you who are directly projecting your own partisan view onto mine and not actually reading my words.

You voting for Cynthia McKinney too?

 

[Damocles]

You voting for Cynthia McKinney too?

I don't know yet, I may give that race a miss entirely.

 

[Cancel7]

You voting for Cynthia McKinney too?

No, he’s learned from the Bush years.

He’s voting for John McCain, but he doesn’t want to have to eat four years of shit after McCain wanders out of his restricted 200 feet of White House space and into a DC bakery asking for his mother and can they please put on the Brooklyn Dodgers game?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

No, he’s learned from the Bush years.

He’s voting for John McCain, but he doesn’t want to have to eat four years of shit after McCain wanders out of his restricted 200 feet of White House space and into a DC bakery asking for his mother and can they please put on the Brooklyn Dodgers game?

For someone who hates sexist remarks so much, you sure don't have a problem with your ageist hitjobs.

I guess it is only bad when it is a group that you are a part of that is discriminated against?

 

[Onceler]

For someone who hates sexist remarks so much, you sure don't have a problem with your ageist hitjobs.

I guess it is only bad when it is a group that you are a part of that is discriminated against?

Everybody gets old, unless they die young.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Everybody gets old, unless they die young.

Everyone is a woman, unless they are a man.

 

[Onceler]

Everyone is a woman, unless they are a man.

Is that really an honest comparison to what I said?

Taking lessons from the Messiah, I see....

 

[Bonestorm]

I said than any program that has been previously implemented. Either you don't know the meaning of words or are deliberately dishonest about what you read.

As for specifics, you either lied about reading McCain's proposals or are looking through those partisan glasses again.

http://www.johnmccain.com//Informing/Issues/17671aa4-2fe8-4008-859f-0ef1468e96f4.htm

Read all of it. Then tell me that there aren't specifics there. Just a warning, it is longer than Obama's plan on that pdf you posted. There is more to his than you attempt to portray.

One of the main items I like to outline is the far more reaching strength built into the bridge between now and when alternative sources can be implemented. You know, the part where Obama barely suggests a tiny bit of drilling.

And, one more time for the diligently dishonest, I believe that both of the Senators understand that either bill will go through a compromise process before passing Congress and the Senate, that Obama's larger reach in R&D will be shrunk in that process and the "bridge" portion (my own word there) will be strengthened in that process. Or, if McCain prevails, the opposite will take effect, the Nuclear and drilling will be shrunk while the R&D portion will gain strength in the compromise process.

From where I stand I prefer McCain's plan to give tax breaks towards the R&D while implementing a stronger bridge to get us off the oil teat more quickly during the interim period. But that is neither here nor there, I still won't be voting for McCain.

I understand you prefer Obama's plan better, and that is fine. But you preferring that plan doesn't change my opinion that both plans appear to me to understand that a compromise will be reached in the congress and to actually plan for that by overstating what they believe to be of larger importance while leaving room on the other end for that compromise.

I personally am not voting for either of them so their plans are viewed differently by myself than you who are directly projecting your own partisan view onto mine and not actually reading my words.

I've read it. What are the specifics?

1) A $5,000 consumer tax credit for a zero emissions car. Well, Obama proposes a $7,000 tax credit for advanced technology vehicles (< 150mpg). Obama's got a more robust proposal.

2) A $300 million "prize" for plug in hybrid. Prizes are decent ideas, but work best where there are no market incentives to develop a product (for example for drugs that only poor people need), not where there is sufficient market incentives to make the product. What's needed is expanded capital investment, not after-the-fact prizes.

The above are the best and only incentives for alternative technologies that McCain's plan has and on one Obama's got a better proposal while on the other it's kind of a silly idea. The rest of McCain's plan is crap:

John McCain Supports Flex-Fuel Vehicles (FFVs) And Believes They Should Play A Greater Role In Our Transportation Sector. In just three years, Brazil went from new cars sales that were about 5 percent FFVs to over 70 percent of new vehicles that were FFVs. American automakers have committed to make 50 percent of their cars FFVs by 2012. John McCain calls on automakers to make a more rapid and complete switch to FFVs.

The above is window-dressing. McCain could call on oil companies to give away free gas but that doesn't mean they'll actually do it. It is nothing. Zero. Zilch.

John McCain Believes Alcohol-Based Fuels Hold Great Promise As Both An Alternative To Gasoline And As A Means of Expanding Consumers' Choices. Some choices such as ethanol are on the market right now. The second generation of alcohol-based fuels like cellulosic ethanol, which won't compete with food crops, are showing great potential.

Again, window-dressing. While it is nice to know what John McCain "believes," he isn't proposing to do anything at all about it. For the record, I hear John McCain also believe in comfortable shoes.

Today, Isolationist Tariffs And Wasteful Special Interest Subsidies Are Not Moving Us Toward An Energy Solution. We need to level the playing field and eliminate mandates, subsidies, tariffs and price supports that focus exclusively on corn-based ethanol and prevent the development of market-based solutions which would provide us with better options for our fuel needs.

Sounds good. Eliminate corn-based ethanol subsidies to enhance competition . Great, but it isn't doing anything to promote any alternatives.

John McCain Will Effectively Enforce Existing CAFE Standards. John McCain has long supported CAFE standards - the mileage requirements that automobile manufacturers' cars must meet. Some carmakers ignore these standards, pay a small financial penalty, and add it to the price of their cars. John McCain believes that the penalties for not following these standards must be effective enough to compel all carmakers to produce fuel-efficient vehicles.

Again, this is John McCain proposing to do nothing at all. Meanwhile, Obama has proposed mandatory increases in CAFE standards. The problem isn't lax enforcement, but that the CAFE standards are ridiculously low.

John McCain Believes That The U.S. Must Become A Leader In A New International Green Economy. Green jobs and green technology will be vital to our economic future. There is no reason that the U.S. should not be a leader in developing and deploying these new technologies.

I agree, John, but just saying this doesn't really mean anything. At all. And it isn't a policy. It's a vacuous platitude.

John McCain Will Commit $2 Billion Annually To Advancing Clean Coal Technologies.

Finally!!! Some actual dollars being thrown at . . . coal!!!! The latest and greatest alternative energy source. Really, the only energy source that actually gets some real dollar funding from John McCain is coal. Now that's forward-thinking.

John McCain Will Put His Administration On Track To Construct 45 New Nuclear Power Plants By 2030 With The Ultimate Goal Of Eventually Constructing 100 New Plants.

Other than drilling for oil this is the other main plank in McCain's policy. Funny we don't see how many dollars he wants to throw at this, nor what he expects to do with all the waste.

John McCain Will Establish A Permanent Tax Credit Equal To 10 Percent Of Wages Spent On R&D. This reform will simplify the tax code, reward activity in the U.S., and make us more competitive with other countries. A permanent credit will provide an incentive to innovate and remove uncertainty. At a time when our companies need to be more competitive, we need to provide a permanent incentive to innovate, and remove the uncertainty now hanging over businesses as they make R&D investment decisions.

This one might be good if it actually applied to development of new technologies, but it doesn't. It's basically just another corporate tax break that applies to any and all corporations doing R & D work. Not really an energy policy at all.

John McCain Will Encourage The Market For Alternative, Low Carbon Fuels Such As Wind, Hydro And Solar Power. According to the Department of Energy, wind could provide as much as one-fifth of electricity by 2030. The U.S. solar energy industry continued its double-digit annual growth rate in 2006. To develop these and other sources of renewable energy will require that we rationalize the current patchwork of temporary tax credits that provide commercial feasibility. John McCain believes in an even-handed system of tax credits that will remain in place until the market transforms sufficiently to the point where renewable energy no longer merits the taxpayers' dollars.

Holy Shit! He mentioned solar, wind and hydro and proposed to do . . . well . . . I'm not sure. Even-handed tax credits or something. But apparently we are to believe that there is "something" to this as opposed to Obama's plan of $150 billion over ten years to develop these industries. With McCain we get . . . even-handed tax credits. Woohoo.

And that's it ladies and gentlemen. That's the entirety of the McCain plan that doesn't include additional drilling and nuclear.

Tax credit for zero emissions car. A prize for a fuel cell everyone is already clamoring to develop, but not funding. And even-handed tax credits of unspecified amount for wind, solar, hydro and alternative fuels. That's the "Lexington Project."

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Is that really an honest comparison to what I said?

Taking lessons from the Messiah, I see....

It wasn't meant as a comparison. Other than that it was just as meaningless as your 'everybody gets old unless they die young" comment.

Just because everyone gets old does not mean ageist comments are acceptable. But I know... 'the One' told you to constantly bring up McCains age as a negative. I understand you are not capable of doing anything other than parrot what you are told to do/say.

 

[Cancel7]

It wasn't meant as a comparison. Other than that it was just as meaningless as your 'everybody gets old unless they die young" comment.

Just because everyone gets old does not mean ageist comments are acceptable. But I know... 'the One' told you to constantly bring up McCains age as a negative. I understand you are not capable of doing anything other than parrot what you are told to do/say.

Really SF, do I have to address this? I thought you would realize how retarded it is and back off of it on your own?
You remain blissfully unaware that there is actual medical evidence that the brain decays as we age? You remain blissfully blind to McCain’s frozen, 10 second long looks when asked a question? You have not read that polls show that old people themselves, remain the most skeptical of someone McCain’s age being able to handle the job? Ever wonder why that is? Think they might know something you don’t?

To compare that to sexism, is just silly. Even for you, the King of False Equivalence.

 

[Onceler]

It wasn't meant as a comparison. Other than that it was just as meaningless as your 'everybody gets old unless they die young" comment.

Just because everyone gets old does not mean ageist comments are acceptable. But I know... 'the One' told you to constantly bring up McCains age as a negative. I understand you are not capable of doing anything other than parrot what you are told to do/say.

Everyone keeps talking about "ageism." Guess what? It's a real issue. Things happen when people age, and it's reasonable to examine if someone who is applying for the job might be losing some of their mental functions, such as confusing Iraq's borders and mistaking world leaders. That's kind of important as a consideration. And we all age, so we all know what to expect. Personally, I don't think some old people should even drive, much less run a country.

Being a woman or being black? Not the same thing. There is no corresponding loss of mental function with being a woman or being black.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Really SF, do I have to address this? I thought you would realize how retarded it is and back off of it on your own?
You remain blissfully unaware that there is actual medical evidence that the brain decays as we age? You remain blissfully blind to McCain’s frozen, 10 second long looks when asked a question? You have not read that polls show that old people themselves, remain the most skeptical of someone McCain’s age being able to handle the job? Ever wonder why that is? Think they might know something you don’t?

To compare that to sexism, is just silly. Even for you, the King of False Equivalence.

I was giving you shit.... then one of the village idiots decided to chime in...

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Everyone keeps talking about "ageism." Guess what? It's a real issue. Things happen when people age, and it's reasonable to examine if someone who is applying for the job might be losing some of their mental functions, such as confusing Iraq's borders and mistaking world leaders. That's kind of important as a consideration. And we all age, so we all know what to expect. Personally, I don't think some old people should even drive, much less run a country.

Being a woman ? Not the same thing. There is no corresponding loss of mental function with being a woman .

There is approximately every 30 days or so.

 

[Damocles]

I've read it. What are the specifics?

1) A $5,000 consumer tax credit for a zero emissions car. Well, Obama proposes a $7,000 tax credit for advanced technology vehicles (< 150mpg). Obama's got a more robust proposal.

2) A $300 million "prize" for plug in hybrid. Prizes are decent ideas, but work best where there are no market incentives to develop a product (for example for drugs that only poor people need), not where there is sufficient market incentives to make the product. What's needed is expanded capital investment, not after-the-fact prizes.

The above are the best and only incentives for alternative technologies that McCain's plan has and on one Obama's got a better proposal while on the other it's kind of a silly idea. The rest of McCain's plan is crap:



The above is window-dressing. McCain could call on oil companies to give away free gas but that doesn't mean they'll actually do it. It is nothing. Zero. Zilch.



Again, window-dressing. While it is nice to know what John McCain "believes," he isn't proposing to do anything at all about it. For the record, I hear John McCain also believe in comfortable shoes.



Sounds good. Eliminate corn-based ethanol subsidies to enhance competition . Great, but it isn't doing anything to promote any alternatives.



Again, this is John McCain proposing to do nothing at all. Meanwhile, Obama has proposed mandatory increases in CAFE standards. The problem isn't lax enforcement, but that the CAFE standards are ridiculously low.



I agree, John, but just saying this doesn't really mean anything. At all. And it isn't a policy. It's a vacuous platitude.



Finally!!! Some actual dollars being thrown at . . . coal!!!! The latest and greatest alternative energy source. Really, the only energy source that actually gets some real dollar funding from John McCain is coal. Now that's forward-thinking.



Other than drilling for oil this is the other main plank in McCain's policy. Funny we don't see how many dollars he wants to throw at this, nor what he expects to do with all the waste.



This one might be good if it actually applied to development of new technologies, but it doesn't. It's basically just another corporate tax break that applies to any and all corporations doing R & D work. Not really an energy policy at all.



Holy Shit! He mentioned solar, wind and hydro and proposed to do . . . well . . . I'm not sure. Even-handed tax credits or something. But apparently we are to believe that there is "something" to this as opposed to Obama's plan of $150 billion over ten years to develop these industries. With McCain we get . . . even-handed tax credits. Woohoo.

And that's it ladies and gentlemen. That's the entirety of the McCain plan that doesn't include additional drilling and nuclear.

Tax credit for zero emissions car. A prize for a fuel cell everyone is already clamoring to develop, but not funding. And even-handed tax credits of unspecified amount for wind, solar, hydro and alternative fuels. That's the "Lexington Project."

Those tax credits, depending on how they are implemented, can exceed the 15 Billion per year from Obama, and as I stated, I believe that the slimness of that portion is in expectation of the compromise that will be implemented in the end after it runs through Congress. I think it is, in fact, specifically designed that way just as I believe Obama's plan is designed with room in mind for far more energy independence at the front end that he largely ignores, "clean" coal is not a replacement for far more efficient programs that can be implemented.

I like plans that work towards effects that are not based on upcoming and as yet undiscovered technologies without a strong bridge to get us there.