Uh-oh...another communist/socialist on the rise in South America

Right. He's probably going to do the Hugo Chavez route. He still exports of course but they're the fourth largest oil country. I'm not sure what number Ecuador is however. But none the less it seems to be the same route. Hopefully he'll use that money for national programs like Chavez did.

Cypress said:
We'll see what happens. I'm no expert on that country. But from what I've read, he's not saying there can't be foreign investment in the country.

He's saying that Ecuadors non-renewable resources (primarily oil and minerals) will be under the stewardship of public and national control. It won't be divested out to foreign multinationals.
Click to expand...
 
Cypress said:
Uruguay has a stable, investor-friendly economy, with an educated, middle class workforce. And Uruguay is an example where the State plays a very important role in the economy. Its a country that has resisted the privatization trend. Much of the public infrastrucure, water, energy, banking, insurance, and telecom there is State owned. And they aren't collapsing. They are thriving.
Click to expand...

Compared to what? What % of their GDP vs the % of state owned property produces more? Also, Uraguay is still considered #33 freest economy.

"Uruguay enjoys high levels of investment freedom, trade freedom, property rights, freedom from corruption, and fiscal freedom. The average tariff rate is fairly low, although non-tariff barriers are extensive, and while bureaucratic procedures can be time-consuming, business regulation is relatively simple. The boom in private enterprise and lack of a personal income tax have given Uruguay Latin America's fourth highest GDP per capita. Foreign investment is permitted in almost all sectors, and the government has never expropriated foreign capital. The judiciary is independent of politics and free of corruption but can be subject to bureaucratic delays. Uruguay's labor market is highly flexible, and firing a redundant worker is easy."

http://www.heritage.org/Index/country.cfm?id=Uruguay
 
Not sure why this would be a surprise to anyone. Most of Latin America .. in fact, most of the world is distancing itself from the US and it's plutocratic masters.

Nationalizing their resources for the people of the country makes good sense to everyone but the aristocracy and the subjects who defend them.
 
blackascoal said:
Not sure why this would be a surprise to anyone. Most of Latin America .. in fact, most of the world is distancing itself from the US and it's plutocratic masters.

Nationalizing their resources for the people of the country makes good sense to everyone but the aristocracy and the subjects who defend them.
Click to expand...

With all due respect black you could not be more wrong. It is the spread of capitalism; respecting property rights, the rule of law etc. that spreads the most economic developoment to people.

Nationalizing a nation's oil by authoritarian rulers benefits said ruler at that time but is not a long term strategy for growth for a country. Latin American countries have proved this over and over and the results are clear as day as they greatly lag behind many other countries economically.

We will see it happen to Chavez and Ven. as well. He's high right now because of outrageous oil prices but once oil prices fall their economy and Chavez will fall with it.

You can claim its an anti-Bush or anti-U.S. thing but capitalism and free markets are not exclusive to the U.S.
 
cawacko said:
With all due respect black you could not be more wrong. It is the spread of capitalism; respecting property rights, the rule of law etc. that spreads the most economic developoment to people.

Nationalizing a nation's oil by authoritarian rulers benefits said ruler at that time but is not a long term strategy for growth for a country. Latin American countries have proved this over and over and the results are clear as day as they greatly lag behind many other countries economically.

We will see it happen to Chavez and Ven. as well. He's high right now because of outrageous oil prices but once oil prices fall their economy and Chavez will fall with it.

You can claim its an anti-Bush or anti-U.S. thing but capitalism and free markets are not exclusive to the U.S.
Click to expand...


Nationalizing a nation's oil by authoritarian rulers benefits said ruler at that time but is not a long term strategy for growth for a country. Latin American countries have proved this over and over and the results are clear as day as they greatly lag behind many other countries economically.


Let's get the facts straight. Chavez, and indeed no government in south america, to my knowledge, has nationalized its oil resources.

Private companies still invest and operate there. The venezuelan goverment mandated a bigger share of the pie, through higher royalities, and a higher percentage of ownership of the fields.

With oil at $100 dollars a barrel, that's not that unusual for governments to want a bigger slice of the pie. The provincial government of Alberta, Canada recently mandated higher royalties from private oil companies operating in alberta. No one is calling Alberta communist.
 
Cypress said:
The provincial government of Alberta, Canada recently mandated higher royalties from private oil companies operating in alberta. No one is calling Alberta communist.
Click to expand...

We call them greedy neo-cons.

In any case, the present royalties forumla originated back in the early 90's, after that sector was de-nationalized. It was (is) pretty bad, not unlike what we see in developing nations - oil companies paying something like 1% until they begin to recover costs. I think the amount the province receives per barrel has dropped significantly over the last decade as well. From what I've read, the province is not grandfathering, so increases affect everyone involved. Things might heat up between the province and various share holders, etc. Interesting stuff, makes for a good Dallas episode.
 
Last edited:
Cypress said:
Nationalizing a nation's oil by authoritarian rulers benefits said ruler at that time but is not a long term strategy for growth for a country. Latin American countries have proved this over and over and the results are clear as day as they greatly lag behind many other countries economically.


Let's get the facts straight. Chavez, and indeed no government in south america, to my knowledge, has nationalized its oil resources.

Private companies still invest and operate there. The venezuelan goverment mandated a bigger share of the pie, through higher royalities, and a higher percentage of ownership of the fields.

With oil at $100 dollars a barrel, that's not that unusual for governments to want a bigger slice of the pie. The provincial government of Alberta, Canada recently mandated higher royalties from private oil companies operating in alberta. No one is calling Alberta communist.
Click to expand...

How much foreign capital do you believe is going to flow into Venzuela's oil ventures after what Chavez did? Would you invest your money or your client's money there?

Add to the fact that Chavez replaced many of the experienced oil workers with his cronies Ven. is in a big fall once oil prices drop and infrastructure breakdowns and decline become evident.
 
cawacko said:
How much foreign capital do you believe is going to flow into Venzuela's oil ventures after what Chavez did? Would you invest your money or your client's money there?

Add to the fact that Chavez replaced many of the experienced oil workers with his cronies Ven. is in a big fall once oil prices drop and infrastructure breakdowns and decline become evident.
Click to expand...


We'll see what happens cawacko.

But, I don't think you've been keeping abreast of international news. Just because ExxonMobil and Conoco pulled out, because venezuela wanted 60% control of their oil revenues, doesn't mean nobody's investing there. I'm guessing that you think if an american mulitnational oil corporation takes its marbles and goes home, that it's game over for venezuela.

The world has changed. The national oil companies of China, Brazil, and Russia are signing contracts to invest in, and produce oil in venezuela. ExxonMobil might cry, and run home. But, others are filling the breach. Its not a world dominated by american companies anymore. This is one of the prices you pay, for your president advocating the overthrow of the venezuelan government -- China's influence will grow in Latin America, and they will invest and benefit, if we keep playing NeoCon games of insulting the world.


China, Venezuela to cement ties with oil deals

By Christian Oliver

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela said on Saturday it was working on a raft of oil deals with China, giving impetus to President Hugo Chavez's attempts to break his country's dependence on oil exports to the United States.

The China National Petroleum Corp. will look to develop heavy crude oil production in the Orinoco Belt and cooperate with Venezuela in building three refineries in China and a "super-fleet" of crude tankers, the Information Ministry said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSN2427878220070325
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Reuters, March 27, 2007: The Information Ministry said CNPC (Chinese National Petroleum Corp.) would sign on Monday a preliminary deal to take a 40 percent stake in various Venezuelan heavy crude projects.

CNPC is already working in the Junin 4 block but Chavez said the Chinese oil giant wanted to expand its Orinoco operations with "billions of dollars" of investment.
Click to expand...


See, cawacko, just because ExxonMobil and your investors in san francisco don't think they can make money, with only a 40% stake in venezuelan oil, doesn't mean that others don't think they can profit.

To my knowledge, only two multinationals pulled out of venezuela when the government there mandated that they would have 60% control of oil parnterships. The rest of the private multinationals stayed, besides ExxonMobil and Conoco. And now the Chinese, Brazilian, and Russian oil comapnies are moving in, after ExxonMobil cried foul and ran home with their marbles.

I don't know what the future holds, but currently I see no evidence that investment in Venezuela is headed for a disasterous collapse.
 
Cypress said:
See, cawacko, just because ExxonMobil and your investors in san francisco don't think they can make money, with only a 40% stake in venezuelan oil, doesn't mean that others don't think they can profit.

To my knowledge, only two multinationals pulled out of venezuela when the government there mandated that they would have 60% control of oil parnterships. The rest of the private multinationals stayed, besides ExxonMobil and Conoco. And now the Chinese, Brazilian, and Russian oil comapnies are moving in, after ExxonMobil cried foul and ran home with their marbles.

I don't know what the future holds, but currently I see no evidence that investment in Venezuela is headed for a disasterous collapse.
Click to expand...

What I've read is that Venezuela's production has dropped some 800,000 barrels a day from 2000 to 2007 and that is a result of the lack of oilfield maintenance that I referenced in the prior post.

2/3rds of Venezuela's oil revenue comes from the U.S. How easy or how costly would it be for Venezuela to ween itself off its major client, the U.S.?

Again, I feel Chavez has been able to get by so far based on the high oil prices. That won't last forever and he will be in trouble when that time comes.

As you said, we will see what happens.
 
cawacko said:
With all due respect black you could not be more wrong. It is the spread of capitalism; respecting property rights, the rule of law etc. that spreads the most economic developoment to people.

Nationalizing a nation's oil by authoritarian rulers benefits said ruler at that time but is not a long term strategy for growth for a country. Latin American countries have proved this over and over and the results are clear as day as they greatly lag behind many other countries economically.

We will see it happen to Chavez and Ven. as well. He's high right now because of outrageous oil prices but once oil prices fall their economy and Chavez will fall with it.

You can claim its an anti-Bush or anti-U.S. thing but capitalism and free markets are not exclusive to the U.S.
Click to expand...

Capitalism by it's very nature rest power in the hands of those with the capital .. which results in a system of plutocratic aristocracy .. which is what we have in America today. I suggst to you that Americans are in a far more precarious situation today than are Venezuelans.

Perhaps it's time we stop looking out the window and spend more time in front of the mirror.

You claim that naturalizing resources only benefits the rulers .. but that belies the truth. Chavez is not personally rich, nor is he trying to be, nor are the increasingly left-leaning leaders of Latin America, nor was Castro for that matter. Chavez has increased the standard and quality of living for Venezuelans as much as 130%. Like Castro, he has provided quality education and healthcare to all of his people.

Here in America, the "outrageous oil prices" you speak of have benefitted the corporate barons .. AND the family of your president far more than it has benefitted the American people.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top