universal health care is a must

[Kamala Trump]

With the economy tanking at record speeds, not having the money may not be a claim. It may be the truth.

Maybe the idea is to get more people unemployed and without insurance, then a flu epidemic can wipe out more people, reducing the resources needed to keep us going.

But idiotstick. We never have the money, but some reason that doesn't matter when it's time for war or bailing out bankers. I guess some actions and some people are just more important than others. Some are too big to fail, the rest of us are too small to succeed I guess.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Yeah and it overloads the emergency rooms and costs lots more money.

I took a friend to an emergency room about a month ago 6 hurs later we saw a DR.
Yeah the system works so well.

You want to see how we can turn 6 hrs into 12 hrs? Legislate universal health care, and that is what you will get, only, it will not be confined to emergency rooms, it will be the case with routine doctor visits and hospital stays as well. It's the reason more foreigners come to the US for medical care than any other nation in the world, they can't get the care they need in their own countries, they have waiting lists for routine surgeries.

I'm all for "fixing the system" but what you are advocating would destroy the system! Take some of that pork we handed the wooden arrow industry in the $700 billion bailout package, and upgrade state health clinics! I'm fine with that! Reform the TORT laws and stop allowing these ambulance-chasing lawyers advertise on TV night and day, so they can sue the medical industry into bankruptcy with frivolous lawsuits! That would bring down the cost! Hell, allocate Waterhead's mythical $80 billion for health education programs, I'll go along with it, but you can't nationalize health care in this country without destroying the quality of health care we now enjoy. It's just not possible in the real world.

 

[Bonestorm]

Pretend?

"I am absolutely determined that by the end of the first term of the next president, we should have universal health care in this country"

Is he or is he not the "next president?"

Did he or did he not say "universal healthcare" by the end of the first term of the "next president?"

It doesn't matter to me that you don't want to discuss it .. that's your perogative brother.

I'm just pointing out the truth .. and backing it up with his own words.

Maybe I should have said "His"

I guess the difference here is what he considers universal and what others consider universal (seriously). He calls his plan universal but it does not have a mandate for all individuals to be covered. Instead his plan purports to make it affordable for every one to get coverage. That is, there is no reason not to have universal coverage other than people not getting insurance.

Personally, I think his definition is shit. Either you mandate coverage for everyone and your plan is universal or you don't and don't have a universal plan. In my view, his plan is not and never was for universal health insurance. It his view, it is.

 

[blackascoal]

But idiotstick. We never have the money, but some reason that doesn't matter when it's time for war or bailing out bankers. I guess some actions and some people are just more important than others. Some are too big to fail, the rest of us are too small to succeed I guess.

How come when republicans said we didn't have the money democrats called that bullshit.

If a republican said that today democrats would call it bullshit.

I'm starting to believe Obama is the messiah and turn bullshit into fine wine.

 

[uscitizen]

With the rhetoric our leader, many of our fine citizens, and some religious leaders as well used against Chavez. Well who but an idiot would expect him to love us? Who else would have the balls to side with him except Russia. You are either with us or against us remember ?

 

[blackascoal]

I guess the difference here is what he considers universal and what others consider universal (seriously). He calls his plan universal but it does not have a mandate for all individuals to be covered. Instead his plan purports to make it affordable for every one to get coverage. That is, there is no reason not to have universal coverage other than people not getting insurance.

Personally, I think his definition is shit. Either you mandate coverage for everyone and your plan is universal or you don't and don't have a universal plan. In my view, his plan is not and never was for universal health insurance. It his view, it is.

Don't mean to be confrontational brother, but you make my point.

Obama nuances everything he says and easily slides between both sides of the same argument.

When those who look to OBama to enact universal healthcare, he'll say "That's not what I meant." Just as he has done on about everything else he's said .. including whether his version will be single-payer of not.

I don't believe any version of universal healthcare will be passed in his first term.

 

[uscitizen]

Depends on how bad things get next year BAC.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That was precisely my point. If we get some preventive care in, the care for the poor and indigent will cost us FAR less.

Treat a cold and you spend a few bucks. Let it develop into pneumonia and you have a few weeks in the hospital, which runs into the tens of thousands of dollars.

To add to your thoughts... I agree that preventitive care would reduce the overall healthcare costs. As would people exercising more and eating healthier foods. It is the healthcare COSTS that need to be addressed.

 

[Cancel3]

You want to see how we can turn 6 hrs into 12 hrs? Legislate universal health care, and that is what you will get, only, it will not be confined to emergency rooms, it will be the case with routine doctor visits and hospital stays as well. It's the reason more foreigners come to the US for medical care than any other nation in the world, they can't get the care they need in their own countries, they have waiting lists for routine surgeries.

I'm all for "fixing the system" but what you are advocating would destroy the system! Take some of that pork we handed the wooden arrow industry in the $700 billion bailout package, and upgrade state health clinics! I'm fine with that! Reform the TORT laws and stop allowing these ambulance-chasing lawyers advertise on TV night and day, so they can sue the medical industry into bankruptcy with frivolous lawsuits! That would bring down the cost! Hell, allocate Waterhead's mythical $80 billion for health education programs, I'll go along with it, but you can't nationalize health care in this country without destroying the quality of health care we now enjoy. It's just not possible in the real world.

You are for fixing the system?

You have argued against preventive care for the poor. You have argued against national health care. You have argued against increasing medicaid/medicare.

I have seen absolutely no sign that you are interested in anything but the bottom line and keeping huge amounts of money pouring into the military budgets.

Please tell me one single thing you have mentioned up to now that was anything about fixing the problem? What have you done besides argue against every suggestion for providing basic healthcare for the poorest people living in one of the richest nations???


That Tort reform you are advocating sounds great. But the limitations on lawsuits hurts the actual victims more.

What is the limit? I have seen figures as low as $250k. Will that provide long term care for 20 or 30 years? Will it save hospitals and doctors? No, it will just allow them to continue to provide halfassed care.

The ability for a judge to throw out a frivilous case would be great. Making the loser pay in court would help too.

But the Tort reform is also going to limit the payments to those who's lives have been fucked up by gross incompetence or negligence. And that is certainly no cure for what ails the system.

 

[Kamala Trump]

Dungheap. Your brain is a joke, seriously. by universal he means it SHOULD be universal? That's laughable. To even say that out loud indicates an inability to think on your part.

 

[Bonestorm]

Don't mean to be confrontational brother, but you make my point.

Obama nuances everything he says and easily slides between both sides of the same argument.

When those who look to OBama to enact universal healthcare, he'll say "That's not what I meant." Just as he has done on about everything else he's said .. including whether his version will be single-payer of not.

I don't believe any version of universal healthcare will be passed in his first term.

I see what you are saying, but this isn't one of those things that slipped under the radar. It was a big deal during the primary and was a key point of contention between him, Clinton and Edwards. Moreover, his plan makes clear that it has no mandate. it was a defining feature of his plan. It isn't as though he didn't provide the details and we cannot hold him to his campaign proposals.

 

[blackascoal]

I see what you are saying, but this isn't one of those things that slipped under the radar. It was a big deal during the primary and was a key point of contention between him, Clinton and Edwards. Moreover, his plan makes clear that it has no mandate. it was a defining feature of his plan. It isn't as though he didn't provide the details and we cannot hold him to his campaign proposals.

I agree again .. but the question is WILL he be held to campaign promises.

I don't think so.

A good speech and it goes away.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Yeah, Russian warships that are at least 20 years old and with outdated technologies.

India and Pakistan playing nucear tag will either set off a worldwide nuclear war or it won't. If it does, have a dozen fewer bombers and fighter aircraft won't make a difference. If it doesn't, having a dozen fewer bombers and fighter aircraft won't make a difference either.

Iran (and every other radical islamic nation) vowed to wipe Israel out back in the 60s and have been chanting that same mantra ever since. Do you really think that we couldn't wipe Iran flat with a tenth of our aircraft and weapons?

Russia is making noise. The old USSR wasn't able to do what they bragged about, and that has become more and more clear since they fell. Now you think we should continue the arms race against a nation that is just a fraction of what the USSR was?

Dixie, we have enough aircraft and warships to wipe any nation off the map. China MIGHT give us some trouble, but short of using nukes no one else can.

And yet you want to continue to build a bigger and bigger arsenal? What the fuck for??? So we can continue to play global policeman and pretend that we are the good guys in white hats protecting the innocents of the world from the dastardly bad guys?

I am not saying we should downsize our fleets. But if we cut the GROWTH of our aircraft and warship fleets we could pay for the entire healthcare system.

You speak of our military arsenal as if it is static and doesn't change. When new high-tech bombers and warships are built, others are decommissioned, and sent to the scrapyard. There really isn't much actual "growth" in the size of our fleets, it's still about the same as it's been the past 50 years.

The fundamental argument here is not the money, we've proven that we can fund almost anything, we just run a deficit doing it, and if we implement a universal nationalized health care program, it will certainly be deficit spending, unless you know of some way to magically generate $10 trillion to bring us back into the black! No, the fundamental argument is what it will do to our state-of-the-art medical system. When you start introducing federal mandates to hospitals and doctors, you will drive many of them completely out of business, and when you start fantasizing like DQ, about nationwide clinics open 24/7, you will have to find a way to staff them and pay for the doctors to work there. The people receiving the benefits of the service are not going to be paying for it, who is? The American taxpayer? Well, that might be okay if there were ANY proof that such a thing could work, but we see evidence in everything the government is involved in, it doesn't work!

We have got to get liberal Americans off this mindset that government is the answer to every problem! We need to find free market solutions and answers, and allow free enterprise to work, rather than consistently burdening the taxpayer with more bureaucratic government waste and inefficiency. What the private sector can do with $80 billion is FAR more than our government can do!

 

[blackascoal]

Depends on how bad things get next year BAC.

Why should that matter?

That excuse never worked for republicans.

 

[Bonestorm]

Dungheap. Your brain is a joke, seriously. by universal he means it SHOULD be universal? That's laughable. To even say that out loud indicates an inability to think on your part.

All I am saying is that pretending Obama fooled everyone into believing that he would enact a policy that mandated universal coverage ignores what actually happened during the primaries and the general election.

 

[Cancel3]

You speak of our military arsenal as if it is static and doesn't change. When new high-tech bombers and warships are built, others are decommissioned, and sent to the scrapyard. There really isn't much actual "growth" in the size of our fleets, it's still about the same as it's been the past 50 years.

The fundamental argument here is not the money, we've proven that we can fund almost anything, we just run a deficit doing it, and if we implement a universal nationalized health care program, it will certainly be deficit spending, unless you know of some way to magically generate $10 trillion to bring us back into the black! No, the fundamental argument is what it will do to our state-of-the-art medical system. When you start introducing federal mandates to hospitals and doctors, you will drive many of them completely out of business, and when you start fantasizing like DQ, about nationwide clinics open 24/7, you will have to find a way to staff them and pay for the doctors to work there. The people receiving the benefits of the service are not going to be paying for it, who is? The American taxpayer? Well, that might be okay if there were ANY proof that such a thing could work, but we see evidence in everything the government is involved in, it doesn't work!

We have got to get liberal Americans off this mindset that government is the answer to every problem! We need to find free market solutions and answers, and allow free enterprise to work, rather than consistently burdening the taxpayer with more bureaucratic government waste and inefficiency. What the private sector can do with $80 billion is FAR more than our government can do!

You want a free market answer to healthcare problems for people who cannot pay??

Do you not see the lunacy in that statement?

YOu want the government NOT to be involved, but you want to involve organizations who have to make a profit to be involved in healthcare that poor people cannot pay for?

Yeah, thats a great solution to the problem.

 

[blackascoal]

All I am saying is that pretending Obama fooled everyone into believing that he would enact a policy that mandated universal coverage ignores what actually happened during the primaries and the general election.

When the music was playing few people listened to the actual words.

The beat is bumpin' .. sounds like he said he's a man of peace .. sounds like he said he's an anti-corporatist .. sounded like he said he's against the Patriot Act and illegal government wiretapping and spying .. didn't I hear him say we needed to change Washington ..

Now the election is over and people are coming down off that high .. wondering who is this person they went to bed with.

He ain't what he seemed while they were high.

 

[Bonestorm]

When the music was playing few people listened to the actual words.

The beat is bumpin' .. sounds like he said he's a man of peace .. sounds like he said he's an anti-corporatist .. sounded like he said he's against the Patriot Act and illegal government wiretapping and spying .. didn't I hear him say we needed to change Washington ..

Now the election is over and people are coming down off that high .. wondering who is this person they went to bed with.

He ain't what he seemed while they were high.

Yeah, well you took the same shit and just got all paranoid. I guess it effects different people differently.

 

[uscitizen]

Why should that matter?

That excuse never worked for republicans.

But everything always got better under Republicans, at least to hear them tell it

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You are for fixing the system?

You have argued against preventive care for the poor. You have argued against national health care. You have argued against increasing medicaid/medicare.

I have seen absolutely no sign that you are interested in anything but the bottom line and keeping huge amounts of money pouring into the military budgets.

Please tell me one single thing you have mentioned up to now that was anything about fixing the problem? What have you done besides argue against every suggestion for providing basic healthcare for the poorest people living in one of the richest nations???


That Tort reform you are advocating sounds great. But the limitations on lawsuits hurts the actual victims more.

What is the limit? I have seen figures as low as $250k. Will that provide long term care for 20 or 30 years? Will it save hospitals and doctors? No, it will just allow them to continue to provide halfassed care.

The ability for a judge to throw out a frivilous case would be great. Making the loser pay in court would help too.

But the Tort reform is also going to limit the payments to those who's lives have been fucked up by gross incompetence or negligence. And that is certainly no cure for what ails the system.

I've never argued against preventative care for the poor, I pointed out, we already have a system in place for that... It's called The Public Health Clinic, and they are found in EVERY state in America! I also haven't argued against Medicaid/Medicare, but we do need to look at how we are doling it out to everybody, whether they are 'poor' or not! I've also not advocated increasing the military budget, that is a red herring you introduced into this debate.

I have argued against nationalizing health care, because I realize it will destroy quality of care, which is more important to me personally. This nation is full of half-wit dreamers like DQ, who think we can somehow demand that insurance companies 'give' insurance to the uninsurable, and tell doctors they have to work 24/7 in free clinics nationwide! Fuck the cost, we just need to keep dreaming up ways to squander money we don't have! Fuck the fact that government can't 'efficiently' take a shit, let's let them run our health care system anyway! You people are insane, and it's getting worse every day!

Here I just MENTION the possibility of reforming TORT laws, and you jump all over it with your typical liberal talking points, you don't have any inclination whatsoever, to do a damn thing about them! Meanwhile, some sheister lawyer is figuring out how to make a buck with a class action suit against some unsuspecting pharmaceutical company, over something that should be basic common sense to us all! Chantix has helped millions of Americans kick the smoking habit, but because some nitwit suffering from mental disorders took it and committed suicide, they are about to be put out of business because of opportunistic lawyers who prey on any misfortune because the law allows them to! I don't have a problem with basic negligence and legitimate lawsuits against shoddy doctoring, but the current laws and rules allow far too much of this frivolous shit, which in turn, costs us all!