universal health care is a must

Dixie said:
You speak of our military arsenal as if it is static and doesn't change. When new high-tech bombers and warships are built, others are decommissioned, and sent to the scrapyard. There really isn't much actual "growth" in the size of our fleets, it's still about the same as it's been the past 50 years.

The fundamental argument here is not the money, we've proven that we can fund almost anything, we just run a deficit doing it, and if we implement a universal nationalized health care program, it will certainly be deficit spending, unless you know of some way to magically generate $10 trillion to bring us back into the black! No, the fundamental argument is what it will do to our state-of-the-art medical system. When you start introducing federal mandates to hospitals and doctors, you will drive many of them completely out of business, and when you start fantasizing like DQ, about nationwide clinics open 24/7, you will have to find a way to staff them and pay for the doctors to work there. The people receiving the benefits of the service are not going to be paying for it, who is? The American taxpayer? Well, that might be okay if there were ANY proof that such a thing could work, but we see evidence in everything the government is involved in, it doesn't work!

We have got to get liberal Americans off this mindset that government is the answer to every problem! We need to find free market solutions and answers, and allow free enterprise to work, rather than consistently burdening the taxpayer with more bureaucratic government waste and inefficiency. What the private sector can do with $80 billion is FAR more than our government can do!
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And the point of my talking about trimming the military budget is that the numbers are not needed. The military system has created the need for more and more.

For the 2008 budget, our illustrious military wants to spend $6.1 billion on the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which is an increase over the 2007 budget of 23%. They want $4.6 billion for the F-22 Raptor, and increase of 15% over 2007. They want $3.1 billion for the Carrier Replacement Program, an increase of 117.7% over 2007.

You don't see a way to fund healthcare would be by trimming some of THAT??

Maybe if we stop trying to run other countries we wouldn't NEED as much of that hardware?

And maybe, just maybe, if we focused on the problems at home we could actually solve some? Instead of focusing billions and billions of dollars on nations that we have no business meddling in.
 
Solitary said:
And the point of my talking about trimming the military budget is that the numbers are not needed. The military system has created the need for more and more.

For the 2008 budget, our illustrious military wants to spend $6.1 billion on the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which is an increase over the 2007 budget of 23%. They want $4.6 billion for the F-22 Raptor, and increase of 15% over 2007. They want $3.1 billion for the Carrier Replacement Program, an increase of 117.7% over 2007.

You don't see a way to fund healthcare would be by trimming some of THAT??

Maybe if we stop trying to run other countries we wouldn't NEED as much of that hardware?

And maybe, just maybe, if we focused on the problems at home we could actually solve some? Instead of focusing billions and billions of dollars on nations that we have no business meddling in.
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There you go talking reasonable logic again.
 
Dixie said:
I've never argued against preventative care for the poor, I pointed out, we already have a system in place for that... It's called The Public Health Clinic, and they are found in EVERY state in America! I also haven't argued against Medicaid/Medicare, but we do need to look at how we are doling it out to everybody, whether they are 'poor' or not! I've also not advocated increasing the military budget, that is a red herring you introduced into this debate.

I have argued against nationalizing health care, because I realize it will destroy quality of care, which is more important to me personally. This nation is full of half-wit dreamers like DQ, who think we can somehow demand that insurance companies 'give' insurance to the uninsurable, and tell doctors they have to work 24/7 in free clinics nationwide! Fuck the cost, we just need to keep dreaming up ways to squander money we don't have! Fuck the fact that government can't 'efficiently' take a shit, let's let them run our health care system anyway! You people are insane, and it's getting worse every day!

Here I just MENTION the possibility of reforming TORT laws, and you jump all over it with your typical liberal talking points, you don't have any inclination whatsoever, to do a damn thing about them! Meanwhile, some sheister lawyer is figuring out how to make a buck with a class action suit against some unsuspecting pharmaceutical company, over something that should be basic common sense to us all! Chantix has helped millions of Americans kick the smoking habit, but because some nitwit suffering from mental disorders took it and committed suicide, they are about to be put out of business because of opportunistic lawyers who prey on any misfortune because the law allows them to! I don't have a problem with basic negligence and legitimate lawsuits against shoddy doctoring, but the current laws and rules allow far too much of this frivolous shit, which in turn, costs us all!
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I brought up that red herring because it is a huge chunk of my tax dollars. You brought up funding, so I brought up a way to fund it.

Those sheister lawyers may be screwing people over, or they may be causing pharmaceutical companies to make sure something is safe BEFORE they send it out there.

Here are some tasty facts for you.

Fact: as many as 98,000 people will die each year as a result of medical errors.

Fact: less than 3,000 total serious sanctions will be given to doctors each year.

Can you see a descrpancy there? (hint:unless each Dr sanctioned has killed 32 people. there are lots of Drs getting away with murder)

"Harvard researchers found that 1% of a representative sample of patients treated in New York state hospitals in 1984 were injured, and one-quarter of those died, because of medical negligence.Nationwide, that would have translated into 234,000 injuries and 80,000 deaths in 1988 from negligence in American hospitals. Most of this involves physicians. There is no clear evidence that there has been significant improvement since then."

(from http://www.medicalmalpractice.com/National-Medical-Malpractice-Facts.cfm)

"Just 5.1 percent of doctors account for 54.2 percent of the malpractice payouts, according to data from the National Practitioner Data Bank. Of the 35,000 doctors who have had two or more malpractice payouts since 1990, only 7.6 percent of them have been disciplined. And only 13 percent of doctors with five medical malpractice payouts have been disciplined."

(from the same link)


And you think protecting them even more is going to help?? I am thinking that 98,000 people is enough, how about you?

Drunk driving kills about 45,000 to 50,000 each year, and we are so outraged we created organizations, classes, and stricter laws to combat it.

Twice that many people die in hospitals from medical errors and you want to stop the Drs from getting sued???



No, part of the problem is the Drs have become mythical in their stature and can get away with murder. (often times literally)
 
Maybe if we stop trying to run other countries we wouldn't NEED as much of that hardware?

And maybe, just maybe, if we focused on the problems at home we could actually solve some? Instead of focusing billions and billions of dollars on nations that we have no business meddling in.
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So you are projecting your anti-war views of foreign policy onto 'fixing' health care, which is not really broken! That's just great! While the world around us goes completely to hell, we can rest comfortably knowing that every single person who has a hangnail, can get free medical care here in America. No one has any money, we don't have the ability to defend our nation, but Joe Poor can damn sure know he will get free meds! Typical Liberal Idiocy on full display!

Twice that many people die in hospitals from medical errors and you want to stop the Drs from getting sued???
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Again, your liberal reading comprehension problem come into play here. I never said that doctors should be protected from lawsuits. I think we need some comprehensive reforms in TORT laws, to prevent some of the ridiculous and frivolous lawsuits being filed daily! Liberal judges are awarding people astronomical amounts of money for the most stupid shit you can imagine, left and right, and this is driving the cost of overall health care through the roof. I have no problem with shitty doctors being held accountable for negligence and incompetence, but there should be some middle ground here! You apparently don't believe there is! If someone can dream up something to sue a doctor or pharmaceutical company over, it's all fine and dandy to you! It has gotten to the point of absurdity, that ANY side effect of ANY drug, is libelous and open to judgment and award of money damages by the courts, and THIS drives the cost of drugs through the ever-loving roof! Yet, you don't bat a liberal eye at this problem, it's all good, just let it ride! Again, drug companies have a responsibility to provide good medicine, and should be liable for negligence or incompetence, but there should be some fucking middle ground! There should be some consideration given to common sense and what is reasonable, and currently, there doesn't seem to be any of this at all.
 
I am not anti-war. I am anti-unwarranted war.

But now that you mention it, are you actually PRO-war? Are you FOR sending our young men to die?





But Dixie, by passing Tort reform you are making it tough for the victims to sue the assholes that injured or killed someone.
 
Tort reform is not the answer - neither is government health insurance.

Real competition is needed in health insurance in order to reduce costs. The link between insurance provider and employer needs to be severed (transitionally, and not how McCain proposed). Once individuals and families begin shopping around for their own health insurance (as opposed to taking whatever their employer offers), the market will begin to cater to them. Other forms of insurance (such as catastrophic coverage only) will suit others. Doctors might even respond by only accepting catastrophic coverage and take payments at fee-for-service, like they did before HMO's began to dominate health care (via government mandate).

Real competition is what is needed because lower costs are needed. Universal health insurance would guarantee higher costs due to higher demand. This happens when people can get something they perceive as being free. Do liberals really want someone like Dick Cheney to have access to their health records? That is what you will get with government health insurance.
 
Solitary said:
I brought up that red herring because it is a huge chunk of my tax dollars. You brought up funding, so I brought up a way to fund it.

Those sheister lawyers may be screwing people over, or they may be causing pharmaceutical companies to make sure something is safe BEFORE they send it out there.

Here are some tasty facts for you.

Fact: as many as 98,000 people will die each year as a result of medical errors.

Fact: less than 3,000 total serious sanctions will be given to doctors each year.

Can you see a descrpancy there? (hint:unless each Dr sanctioned has killed 32 people. there are lots of Drs getting away with murder)

"Harvard researchers found that 1% of a representative sample of patients treated in New York state hospitals in 1984 were injured, and one-quarter of those died, because of medical negligence.Nationwide, that would have translated into 234,000 injuries and 80,000 deaths in 1988 from negligence in American hospitals. Most of this involves physicians. There is no clear evidence that there has been significant improvement since then."

(from http://www.medicalmalpractice.com/National-Medical-Malpractice-Facts.cfm)

"Just 5.1 percent of doctors account for 54.2 percent of the malpractice payouts, according to data from the National Practitioner Data Bank. Of the 35,000 doctors who have had two or more malpractice payouts since 1990, only 7.6 percent of them have been disciplined. And only 13 percent of doctors with five medical malpractice payouts have been disciplined."

(from the same link)


And you think protecting them even more is going to help?? I am thinking that 98,000 people is enough, how about you?

Drunk driving kills about 45,000 to 50,000 each year, and we are so outraged we created organizations, classes, and stricter laws to combat it.

Twice that many people die in hospitals from medical errors and you want to stop the Drs from getting sued???



No, part of the problem is the Drs have become mythical in their stature and can get away with murder. (often times literally)
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good post. Not that it will make any difference to those on the far right though.
 
ironhead said:
Tort reform is not the answer - neither is government health insurance.

Real competition is needed in health insurance in order to reduce costs. The link between insurance provider and employer needs to be severed (transitionally, and not how McCain proposed). Once individuals and families begin shopping around for their own health insurance (as opposed to taking whatever their employer offers), the market will begin to cater to them. Other forms of insurance (such as catastrophic coverage only) will suit others. Doctors might even respond by only accepting catastrophic coverage and take payments at fee-for-service, like they did before HMO's began to dominate health care (via government mandate).

Real competition is what is needed because lower costs are needed. Universal health insurance would guarantee higher costs due to higher demand. This happens when people can get something they perceive as being free. Do liberals really want someone like Dick Cheney to have access to their health records? That is what you will get with government health insurance.
Click to expand...



I really do not give a crap if Cheny sees my medical records or not.

What about pre existing conditions ?
for people with pre existing conditions employer health insurance is often the only viable option.
'

True competition as the answer for healthcare is a pipe dream, will not happen.
 
Dungheap said:
Yeah, well you took the same shit and just got all paranoid. I guess it effects different people differently.
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I'm a self-proclaimed proud socialist my brother. I don't get paranoid.

I took the same shit and called it what it was .. many others simply closed their eyes and mouths and "hoped" for the best.

I don't do hope.
 
blackascoal said:
I'm a self-proclaimed proud socialist my brother. I don't get paranoid.

I took the same shit and called it what it was .. many others simply closed their eyes and mouths and "hoped" for the best.

I don't do hope.
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Hope is the only reason I can look at our political process and not decide to move to another country.
 
Solitary said:
Hope is the only reason I can look at our political process and not decide to move to another country.
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I can't argue with that .. especially in these times .. but hope is the mechanism of last resort and usually comes when we run out of the courage to change our condition.

Perhaps if I had your belief in hope, I'd feel better about our condition.
 
blackascoal said:
I'm a self-proclaimed proud socialist my brother. I don't get paranoid.

I took the same shit and called it what it was .. many others simply closed their eyes and mouths and "hoped" for the best.

I don't do hope.
Click to expand...


It was a joke. Don't socialists have a sense of humor?
 
blackascoal said:
Do you have Obama underwear, an Obama nightlite, or do you sleep with a big ol' Obama teddy?

“I am absolutely determined that by the end of the first term of the next president, we should have universal health care in this country,”

Who said that?
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Let me guess...

Um... Not me.

:D
 
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