What has Bush killed.

It would change it, not kill it.

The idea that public education must mean state run schools rather than just funding is where you and I would part ways there. Vouchers would not "kill" public funding of education, just the machine the state uses to impress its will on our children.

It would result into the BigMacing of education. Somethign that fills your appitite but provides 0 substnance. Leaving education up to the market would result in super schools that teach nuthing, but are very popular with the public due to the marketing.
 
It would result into the BigMacing of education. Somethign that fills your appitite but provides 0 substnance. Leaving education up to the market would result in super schools that teach nuthing, but are very popular with the public due to the marketing.
I do not believe so.

First, almost all voucher programs require more of the school that gets the cash than we require from the idiot machine we call education now.

Second, if you are choosing what school to send your kid to, you don't pick "Big Mac", that's what we get now. The Fast Food of education comes from the current machine, not from allowing parents choice. I never thought you would be anti-choice.
 
I do not believe so.

First, almost all voucher programs require more of the school that gets the cash than we require from the idiot machine we call education now.

Second, if you are choosing what school to send your kid to, you don't pick "Big Mac", that's what we get now. The Fast Food of education comes from the current machine, not from allowing parents choice. I never thought you would be anti-choice.

Well there would be a correct and an incorrect way to do it. If standards were required, real standards, and if you could not add money to it. I think it might work.

If you cound get your voucher then add $10,000 to it then there would result in a strengtning of the class system. There should be a strong basic level of education required for all children.

I just dont trust the "Standards" that would be required by the Bush Administration.
 
I hate to sound so stupid, but can someone explain how vouchers could possibly work on a practical level?

Where I live, there is one school within a 40 minute or so drive. If there were better schools available, and I had a "choice," it would mean sending my kids close to an hour away, provided that 1 of a small handful of schools was actually better.

It's not like I have 3-4 schools in or close to my town that could potentially be competing for my dollars....
 
It would result into the BigMacing of education. Somethign that fills your appitite but provides 0 substnance. Leaving education up to the market would result in super schools that teach nuthing, but are very popular with the public due to the marketing.

how do you think our schools are performing now?
 
Well there would be a correct and an incorrect way to do it. If standards were required, real standards, and if you could not add money to it. I think it might work.

If you cound get your voucher then add $10,000 to it then there would result in a strengtning of the class system. There should be a strong basic level of education required for all children.

I just dont trust the "Standards" that would be required by the Bush Administration.
There would be no "strengthening" of the class system. Those same people can take their $10,000 and go elsewhere already. That is the weakest part of the argument against vouchers.

The Federal Government should never set standards for education, it is not one of the powers given it by the Constitution. This was a liberal program brought by a liberal President.
 
That's always my favorite line: Whens someone accuses a guy who sets out to help the lower classes of committing the egregious act of "class warfare." SF has to be sitting there with a Republican MADLIB book pulling out tripe left and right when he's on here.

Next he'll be talking about Democrats and "surrender to terror."

You may choose to call it something different, but you know exactly what we mean when we accuse Edwards of class warfare. And what's more, I think you're smart enough to know that we are right, you just don't care.
 
I do not believe so.

First, almost all voucher programs require more of the school that gets the cash than we require from the idiot machine we call education now.

Second, if you are choosing what school to send your kid to, you don't pick "Big Mac", that's what we get now. The Fast Food of education comes from the current machine, not from allowing parents choice. I never thought you would be anti-choice.
And I can't believe that conservatives support a welfare education program, which is exactly what the voucher system is. I listen to right wingers on this site complain about people who don't actually pay anything in taxes getting a refund because of the child tax credit but you have NO PROBLEM with people getting more money out of the system than they paid into it. Then you all whine about Chelsea getting to go to Sidwell and why can't OUR kids go there. They can't because you can't afford it and even with vouchers most of you would not be able to send your kids there. Kids would also be better off if they all were transported around by safer vehicles so can I have a Mercedes voucher so I can transport my kids in a safer car? Also, if you don't mind, rich kids seem to eat better so can I have a caviar and filet mignon voucher? I know ad absurdium. But Vouchers are a welfare program aimed primarily at funding religious schools with public money.

Also it sticks kids that live in isolated rural areas with no where to go other than the schools that are in their community. You live in the west, hell you live in Colorado. Where are kids in isolated Colorado mountain towns going to go to school other than their own broken schools. Especially in the winter. Are kids in Silverton and Uray gonna be able to go to better schools in Durango? Hell now. So they get stuck too.

Vouchers were an attempt to reward the religious right that put the republicans in power so that they could fund all their fundie schools and teach kids the earth is 6000 years old. The enlightenment was officially ended then.
 
There would be no "strengthening" of the class system. Those same people can take their $10,000 and go elsewhere already. That is the weakest part of the argument against vouchers.

The Federal Government should never set standards for education, it is not one of the powers given it by the Constitution.

It depends. Private Law Schools are a great example. They raise tuition every time the feds increase the limits on how much you can borrow from the Federal Stundent Loan Program, the cost to go to a private law school is fixed at some percentage ABOVE what you can borrow. Just as would be the case for a good elementry school if vochers are done without good regulation.
 
And I can't believe that conservatives support a welfare education program, which is exactly what the voucher system is. I listen to right wingers on this site complain about people who don't actually pay anything in taxes getting a refund because of the child tax credit but you have NO PROBLEM with people getting more money out of the system than they paid into it. Then you all whine about Chelsea getting to go to Sidwell and why can't OUR kids go there. They can't because you can't afford it and even with vouchers most of you would not be able to send your kids there. Kids would also be better off if they all were transported around by safer vehicles so can I have a Mercedes voucher so I can transport my kids in a safer car? Also, if you don't mind, rich kids seem to eat better so can I have a caviar and filet mignon voucher? I know ad absurdium. But Vouchers are a welfare program aimed primarily at funding religious schools with public money.

Also it sticks kids that live in isolated rural areas with no where to go other than the schools that are in their community. You live in the west, hell you live in Colorado. Where are kids in isolated Colorado mountain towns going to go to school other than their own broken schools. Especially in the winter. Are kids in Silverton and Uray gonna be able to go to better schools in Durango? Hell now. So they get stuck too.

Vouchers were an attempt to reward the religious right that put the republicans in power so that they could fund all their fundie schools and teach kids the earth is 6000 years old. The enlightenment was officially ended then.
This is a self-limited view of how vouchers work, but that's okay too. We can just throw more money at the system that produces the least-educated children ever and pretend that fixes it. Remove the standards (as the teacher's union wants us to because it makes the 'teach to the test') let them continue to stupefy our kids and pretend that recycle fundraisers are "education"...

Let's continue what isn't working, because that is the only system that can be possible...

If we are going to spend the money, it should first be a State thing and not Federal, and it certainly shouldn't be run by the Asylum.
 
It depends. Private Law Schools are a great example. They raise tuition every time the feds increase the limits on how much you can borrow from the Federal Stundent Loan Program, the cost to go to a private law school is fixed at some percentage ABOVE what you can borrow. Just as would be the case for a good elementry school if vochers are done without good regulation.
Hence you use "good regulation", but only at the state level. Public Education is not a power granted to the Feds, it is therefore either a State or a personal power.
 
You may choose to call it something different, but you know exactly what we mean when we accuse Edwards of class warfare. And what's more, I think you're smart enough to know that we are right, you just don't care.

Of course he knows, he just refuses to acknowledge it because moveon.org told him to just keep denying it.
 
And I can't believe that conservatives support a welfare education program, which is exactly what the voucher system is. I listen to right wingers on this site complain about people who don't actually pay anything in taxes getting a refund because of the child tax credit but you have NO PROBLEM with people getting more money out of the system than they paid into it. Then you all whine about Chelsea getting to go to Sidwell and why can't OUR kids go there. They can't because you can't afford it and even with vouchers most of you would not be able to send your kids there. Kids would also be better off if they all were transported around by safer vehicles so can I have a Mercedes voucher so I can transport my kids in a safer car? Also, if you don't mind, rich kids seem to eat better so can I have a caviar and filet mignon voucher? I know ad absurdium. But Vouchers are a welfare program aimed primarily at funding religious schools with public money.

Also it sticks kids that live in isolated rural areas with no where to go other than the schools that are in their community. You live in the west, hell you live in Colorado. Where are kids in isolated Colorado mountain towns going to go to school other than their own broken schools. Especially in the winter. Are kids in Silverton and Uray gonna be able to go to better schools in Durango? Hell now. So they get stuck too.

Vouchers were an attempt to reward the religious right that put the republicans in power so that they could fund all their fundie schools and teach kids the earth is 6000 years old. The enlightenment was officially ended then.

I think you either don't understand or are misconstruing the belief behind vouchers. The idea is not to create religious schools. The idea is to install an ellement of competition into our schools but most importantly give kids (especially inner-city kids) options that they currently don't have to go better schools. And those 'better' schools include other public schools along with private schools.
 
And I can't believe that conservatives support a welfare education program, which is exactly what the voucher system is. I listen to right wingers on this site complain about people who don't actually pay anything in taxes getting a refund because of the child tax credit but you have NO PROBLEM with people getting more money out of the system than they paid into it. Then you all whine about Chelsea getting to go to Sidwell and why can't OUR kids go there. They can't because you can't afford it and even with vouchers most of you would not be able to send your kids there. Kids would also be better off if they all were transported around by safer vehicles so can I have a Mercedes voucher so I can transport my kids in a safer car? Also, if you don't mind, rich kids seem to eat better so can I have a caviar and filet mignon voucher? I know ad absurdium. But Vouchers are a welfare program aimed primarily at funding religious schools with public money.

Also it sticks kids that live in isolated rural areas with no where to go other than the schools that are in their community. You live in the west, hell you live in Colorado. Where are kids in isolated Colorado mountain towns going to go to school other than their own broken schools. Especially in the winter. Are kids in Silverton and Uray gonna be able to go to better schools in Durango? Hell now. So they get stuck too.

Vouchers were an attempt to reward the religious right that put the republicans in power so that they could fund all their fundie schools and teach kids the earth is 6000 years old. The enlightenment was officially ended then.

If we are spending "x" dollars per year to send a kid to public school, there is nothing wrong with taking the "x" dollars and providing the parents the choice of where they send their kids to school.

So if we are spending "x" dollars either way, HOW is the voucher program a welfare program? Unless you are saying that public education is welfare too.
 
Hence you use "good regulation", but only at the state level. Public Education is not a power granted to the Feds, it is therefore either a State or a personal power.

It all depends on the way it is regulated.
 
This is a self-limited view of how vouchers work, but that's okay too. We can just throw more money at the system that produces the least-educated children ever and pretend that fixes it. Remove the standards (as the teacher's union wants us to because it makes the 'teach to the test') let them continue to stupefy our kids and pretend that recycle fundraisers are "education"...

Let's continue what isn't working, because that is the only system that can be possible...

If we are going to spend the money, it should first be a State thing and not Federal, and it certainly shouldn't be run by the Asylum.
First off I am not saying keep everything the same. What we heed a school system that does not teach to the lowest common denominator and one that recognizes that not all our children are going to be doctors or lawyers, or even med techs and paralegals. We need to recognize that some kids are going to be mechanics, and soldiers and receptionists and even trash collectors and school janitors and that they don't all need 12 years of education. We need to quit teaching kids to take a test and start teaching them information that will profide them with the knowledge to pass any test on that knowledge. We need to quit letting kids opt out of science classes that teach how babies are made and how to keep them from being made and quit talking about whether or not we should teach creationism in a SCIENCE class. And you are right, we need to readjust the teaching profession. I have an idea, if you teach math you should have a degree in math. If you teach english your degree should be in english. Teach sciences, degree in that particular science, and the teachers that teach should be able to pass any test on the subject they teach. Do away with tenure. Only in state and federal goverment jobs do people expect to be able to die at that job. But if you look at other countries that do well at educating their kids you will see that the bulk of them have one minister of education and one tough ass standard for the track that those children are in. A child in Alabama should be learing the exact same things as a child in California.
 
If we are spending "x" dollars per year to send a kid to public school, there is nothing wrong with taking the "x" dollars and providing the parents the choice of where they send their kids to school.

So if we are spending "x" dollars either way, HOW is the voucher program a welfare program? Unless you are saying that public education is welfare too.
I am saying the state has an education that they are providing for the children in their state. It is not the job of the state to provide money so the First Church of the Jewish Zombie can teach their rose colored education.
 
I agree with vouchers on the principle that you should have the most choice that is realistically possible on how your tax dollars are spent.

If you feel that your child's public school is failing to deliver a satisfactory level of education, I support your right to use your tax dollars to take him/her elsewhere to get the quality of education you deserve.
 
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