What if Western civilization never got rid of slavery?

[cancel2 2022]

Virtually all name brand tool makers offer that now.

Can you tell me what electrical tools has to do with slavery?

 

[Bill]

Cheaply made Chinese hammer = $8 Might last the day in hard use.

Quality made in US hammer = $42 Lasts a lifetime.

I know. Estwing is the brand I buy for hammers.

I've had one for about 40 years & it wasn't new when I obtained it

Same can be said for shovels...

Never had this happen before using an American made shovel-

 

[Cypress]

There was a great line in Sagan's "Contact" between the atheist Ellie and Christian philosopher Palmer Joss:

Palmer Joss: [Ellie challenges Palmer to prove the existence of God] Did you love your father?

Ellie Arroway: What?

Palmer Joss: Your dad. Did you love him?

Ellie Arroway: Yes, very much.

Palmer Joss: Prove it.

I just read something about Immanuel Kant which speaks precisely to what I was writing about.

In his "Critique of Pure Reason" (1781), Kant demonstrated the limitations of theoretical reason in science. Science is successful within its own domain, he argued, but only because it stays within the limits of possible experience. By contrast, for Kant, traditional issues of “meta”-physics (which Aristotle called “wisdom”)—that is, issues about values and morality, the soul, free will, and God—went beyond the bounds of sensory experience and hence of theoretical reason. Nonetheless, Kant held that one could address these issues, especially those about ethics or morality, through practical reason (practical deliberation about how we ought to act and live).

Source credit: Professor Robert H. Kane, The University of Texas at Austin

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

It's an interesting question. Slavery has been around through most, or all, of human history. It continues today in some parts of the world. Only in Western civilization did the notion that slavery was immoral and evil arise leading to its legal abolition. What if that didn't happen and slavery existed unabated to today?

Well, it wouldn't be civilisation. The British Empire put a stop to slavery because it wasn't in fact a British institution (William the Bastard/Conqueror got rid of it to increase his tax take and it died out) and because it was not only the great Liberal cause from the late Eighteenth Century but because it gave the fleet a good excuse to stop foreign ships that might be slavers.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I just read something about Immanuel Kant which speaks precisely to what I was writing about.

In his "Critique of Pure Reason" (1781), Kant demonstrated the limitations of theoretical reason in science. Science is successful within its own domain, he argued, but only because it stays within the limits of possible experience. By contrast, for Kant, traditional issues of “meta”-physics (which Aristotle called “wisdom”)—that is, issues about values and morality, the soul, free will, and God—went beyond the bounds of sensory experience and hence of theoretical reason. Nonetheless, Kant held that one could address these issues, especially those about ethics or morality, through practical reason (practical deliberation about how we ought to act and live).

Source credit: Professor Robert H. Kane, The University of Texas at Austin

Isn't that akin to essential Buddhism?

Example: https://www.pbs.org/edens/thailand/buddhism.htm
The steps of the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. Moreover, there are three themes into which the Path is divided: good moral conduct (Understanding, Thought, Speech); meditation and mental development (Action, Livelihood, Effort), and wisdom or insight (Mindfulness and Concentration).

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Well, it wouldn't be civilisation. The British Empire put a stop to slavery because it wasn't in fact a British institution (William the Bastard/Conqueror got rid of it to increase his tax take and it died out) and because it was not only the great Liberal cause from the late Eighteenth Century but because it gave the fleet a good excuse to stop foreign ships that might be slavers.

Nice spin but the Brits didn't ban slavery across the Empire until 1833. How many years did the "British Empire" exist before then? Additionally, the Brits never got rid of racism. They had no problem murdering hundreds of Indians at Jallianwala Bagh. They invented Concentration Camps for the Boer War.

The skirts of the British Queen are not as lily-white as you'd have us believe. LOL

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire
It began with the overseas possessions and trading posts established by England between the late 16th and early 18th centuries. At its height it was the largest empire in history and, for over a century, was the foremost global power.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre
The Jallianwala Bagh massacre, also known as the Amritsar massacre, took place on 13 April 1919. A large but peaceful crowd had gathered at the Jallianwala Bagh in Amritsar, Punjab to protest against the arrest of leaders like Dr. Saifuddin Kitchlu and Dr. Satya Pal. In response to the public gathering, commanding brigadier-general Dyer surrounded the Bagh with his soldiers. The Jallianwala Bagh could only be exited on one side, as its other three sides were enclosed by buildings. After blocking the exit with his troops, he ordered them to shoot at the crowd, continuing to fire even as protestors tried to flee. The troops kept on firing until their ammunition was exhausted.[3] At least 379 people were killed[1] and over 1,200 other people were injured of whom 192 were seriously injured.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War_concentration_camps
During the Second Anglo-Boer War which lasted from 1899–1902, the British operated concentration camps in South Africa: the term "concentration camp" grew in prominence during that period....Eventually, there were a total of 45 tented camps which were built for Boer internees and 64 additional camps which were built for black Africans. Of the 28,000 Boer men who were captured as prisoners of war, 25,630 were sent overseas. The vast majority of Boers who remained in the local camps were women and children. Over 26,000 women and children perished in these concentration camps.[5

 

[Cypress]

Isn't that akin to essential Buddhism?

Example: https://www.pbs.org/edens/thailand/buddhism.htm
The steps of the Noble Eightfold Path are Right Understanding, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. Moreover, there are three themes into which the Path is divided: good moral conduct (Understanding, Thought, Speech); meditation and mental development (Action, Livelihood, Effort), and wisdom or insight (Mindfulness and Concentration).

I think the only distinction philosophically is the Buddhist noble truths are somewhat utilitarian - they are goal-oriented towards achieving an objective = ultimate enlightenment and release from the cycle of samsara.

Kant calls his ethical philosophy, categorical imperatives. There is no goal or consequences to them. We do them simply because they are a universal truth, they are right simply in and of themselves.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think the only distinction philosophically is the Buddhist noble truths are somewhat utilitarian - they are goal-oriented towards achieving an objective = ultimate enlightenment and release from the cycle of samsara.

Kant calls his ethical philosophy, categorical imperatives. There is no goal or consequences to them. We do them simply because they are a universal truth, they are right simply in and of themselves.

Agreed there are differences, but I'm seeing a "many paths to the mountaintop" pattern here since the entire goal is living an enlightened life, to see and appreciate the world as it truly is.


Tangentially; my favorite quote from David McCullough's "1776" was about George Washington: "Seeing things as they were, and not as he would wish them to be, was one of his salient strengths."

This was about 2008. I was a union safety rep trying to balance corporate priorities with aviation safety and my own pilot group. The quote made me realize that the main problem among the pilot group was that not enough were seeing things as they were. They saw what they wanted to see and that fiction caused problems in advancing a safety agenda.

Back to the subject: Seeing things as they are and not the way we wish them to be is to fully embrace reality.

Who here thinks the Insurrectionists are only seeing what they want to see?

 

[Cypress]

Agreed there are differences, but I'm seeing a "many paths to the mountaintop" pattern here since the entire goal is living an enlightened life, to see and appreciate the world as it truly is.


Tangentially; my favorite quote from David McCullough's "1776" was about George Washington: "Seeing things as they were, and not as he would wish them to be, was one of his salient strengths."

This was about 2008. I was a union safety rep trying to balance corporate priorities with aviation safety and my own pilot group. The quote made me realize that the main problem among the pilot group was that not enough were seeing things as they were. They saw what they wanted to see and that fiction caused problems in advancing a safety agenda.

Back to the subject: Seeing things as they are and not the way we wish them to be is to fully embrace reality.

Who here thinks the Insurrectionists are only seeing what they want to see?

Introspection and self reflection are a stength and an asset.

Self-deception is a trap intelligent humans must always guard against.

I keep wanting to read McCuloughs 1776, but I never seem to get around to it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Introspection and self reflection are a stength and an asset.

Self-deception is a trap intelligent humans must always guard against.

I keep wanting to read McCuloughs 1776, but I never seem to get around to it.

If you are in a car more than 30 minutes a day, I highly recommend audio books. A CD can be checked out from your local library. If they don't have it, the inter-library system can put it on order for you. I ordered a bunch and ripped them to MP3 files then burned an entire book onto one CD.

In 2008 I was driving about 5 hours a week to night welding classes for a year and a quarter. I could go through an entire book, unabridged, in about 8-10 hours.

McCullough's book was just one of them. Being 2008, I also listened to Obama's "The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream". A history book I particularly enjoyed was Richard Zacks "The Pirate Coast: Thomas Jefferson, the First Marines, and the Secret Mission of 1805".

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Well, it wouldn't be civilisation. The British Empire put a stop to slavery because it wasn't in fact a British institution (William the Bastard/Conqueror got rid of it to increase his tax take and it died out) and because it was not only the great Liberal cause from the late Eighteenth Century but because it gave the fleet a good excuse to stop foreign ships that might be slavers.

It'd still be civilization, just with slavery. Slavery died out because of a combination of religious morals rising in Europe and Western culture and technology rendering it inefficient. Without the moral portion it would likely have remained a part of society just as it does in many parts of the world today.

 

[Cypress]

If you are in a car more than 30 minutes a day, I highly recommend audio books. A CD can be checked out from your local library. If they don't have it, the inter-library system can put it on order for you. I ordered a bunch and ripped them to MP3 files then burned an entire book onto one CD.

In 2008 I was driving about 5 hours a week to night welding classes for a year and a quarter. I could go through an entire book, unabridged, in about 8-10 hours.

McCullough's book was just one of them. Being 2008, I also listened to Obama's "The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream". A history book I particularly enjoyed was Richard Zacks "The Pirate Coast: Thomas Jefferson, the First Marines, and the Secret Mission of 1805".

I can respect a real history buff.

I walk about an hour a day, and I listen to audio downloads of books and lectures.

It really beats listening to Stairway to Heaven for the five billionth time!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I can respect a real history buff.

I walk about an hour a day, and I listen to audio downloads of books and lectures.

It really beats listening to Stairway to Heaven for the five billionth time!

I listen to history podcasts on my phone/bluetooth headset when mowing. Sometimes when working outside on a speaker. I don't like working with a headset on since I can't hear others approaching so I use a bluetooth speaker. If moving around a lot, I can't always hear a story but can continue to enjoy music.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I can respect a real history buff....

PS, You might enjoy the Pirate Coast book. Along with other historical events (eg, the Battle of Midway) it show how blind luck and quick thinking people can turn the tide of an event.

The famed Marine attack on "the shores of Tripoli" was a lot closer thing than most people believe.

Not exactly related, but this is one of my favorite scenes from "the Wind and the Lion", the 3 minute clip is shown in Marine training.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I can respect a real history buff....

PPS. Oops, this goes with it:

 

[Cypress]

PS, You might enjoy the Pirate Coast book. Along with other historical events (eg, the Battle of Midway) it show how blind luck and quick thinking people can turn the tide of an event.

The famed Marine attack on "the shores of Tripoli" was a lot closer thing than most people believe.

Not exactly related, but this is one of my favorite scenes from "the Wind and the Lion", the 3 minute clip is shown in Marine training.

I appreciate the recommendations

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

It'd still be civilization, just with slavery. Slavery died out because of a combination of religious morals rising in Europe and Western culture and technology rendering it inefficient. Without the moral portion it would likely have remained a part of society just as it does in many parts of the world today.

Depends what you mean by civilisation, I suppose. The West Africa Squadron was hunting down slave ships from 1803 or thereabouts, and the pressures against the trade - and against slavery itself - were largely religious. Jane Austen disliked Wilberforce because he was one of the Evangelical 'saints' while the Quakers started working against it in the 'States (and let me put in a word here for the Brontes' father, an Anglican curate: one theory about Heathcliffe is that he was 'black') Slavery was, at any time, difficult to reconcile with any kind of Christianity, however much some (Paul, for instance) wanted to kow-tow to the Imperial authorities.

 

[Bill]

Depends what you mean by civilisation, I suppose. The West Africa Squadron was hunting down slave ships from 1803 or thereabouts, and the pressures against the trade - and against slavery itself - were largely religious. Jane Austen disliked Wilberforce because he was one of the Evangelical 'saints' while the Quakers started working against it in the 'States (and let me put in a word here for the Brontes' father, an Anglican curate: one theory about Heathcliffe is that he was 'black') Slavery was, at any time, difficult to reconcile with any kind of Christianity, however much some (Paul, for instance) wanted to kow-tow to the Imperial authorities.

Some excellent points, thanks for bringing them out.........

John Wesley, via Wilberforce got the ball rolling-NOTE: It wasn't the west, it was Britain-UK-Not Spain, Portugal, France, Italy etc...

Oddly enough Wesleyans= Methodism~ Methodism in the USA split on the issue, thus we have southern Methodist, those supporting the south, eventhough their founder was adamantly opposed to slavery