What's a Preacher to do?

[Immanuel]

are you saying that YOU don't cherrypick Mosaic Law? Are you saying that you strictly follow all 613? And if not, why not?

None of us follow the Mosaic Laws; however, when I disobey God's laws, then I AM sinning. There is no doubt about that. Disobey God's laws and you sin. For a homosexual to lie with a person of the same sex IS a sin.

Christ came to free sinners including homosexuals.

But, your words were that in your opinion homosexuality is not a sin. That is very, very different than saying that it is a sin, but that God can and will forgive the sinner.

Lest ye forget!

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Immie

 

[maineman]

None of us follow the Mosaic Laws; however, when I disobey God's laws, then I AM sinning. There is no doubt about that.

so...when you trim your trees in the seventh year, you are sinning?

when you trim the end of your beard, you are sinning?

when you shave your sideburns, you are sinning?

when you eat shellfish, you are sinning?

do you REALLY believe that?

 

[Immanuel]

so...when you trim your trees in the seventh year, you are sinning?

when you trim the end of your beard, you are sinning?

when you shave your sideburns, you are sinning?

when you eat shellfish, you are sinning?

do you REALLY believe that?

I don't eat shellfish... I am allergic to it, Thank God... that shit is nasty.

Yes, I do believe that it is a sin to break God's laws even laws that don't make sense. God had a reason for giving those laws and I believe some of those laws were given just to show us our need for a savior and for no other reason than that.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden. Why? Did God really care if their eyes would be open and if they would be "like God"? No, God gave them that command simply as a tool of obedience. "Thou shalt not... Why? Because I said so."

St Paul writes to the people of Corinth regarding sexual immorality:

1 Corinthians 6:12

"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.

and later in chapter 10 verse 23, he writes regarding the freedom of believers:

"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive.

I can do as I please, but there are consequences for what I do.

Everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial to me. I can participate in a homosexual relationship, but doing so will not be beneficial for me? Why? Because it separates me from God.

God gave us his commandments and told us not to do these things, not because they were evil but because he sought our obedience and our love.

All that being said, a sin is anything that keeps us from a relationship with God. That means that my sitting here and typing may be a sin, unless it actually brings me closer to God as in seeking answers to questions such as your own.

Homosexuality is a sin. Not because it is evil, but because God said not participate in it.

My choosing to do something that God said not to do or conversely to not do something he told me to do, is in fact a sin and it separates me from God's love.

Romans 7:7-9

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Immie

 

[Annie]

I don't eat shellfish... I am allergic to it, Thank God... that shit is nasty.

Yes, I do believe that it is a sin to break God's laws even laws that don't make sense. God had a reason for giving those laws and I believe some of those laws were given just to show us our need for a savior and for no other reason than that.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden. Why? Did God really care if their eyes would be open and if they would be "like God"? No, God gave them that command simply as a tool of obedience. "Thou shalt not... Why? Because I said so."

St Paul writes to the people of Corinth regarding sexual immorality:

1 Corinthians 6:12


and later in chapter 10 verse 23, he writes regarding the freedom of believers:



I can do as I please, but there are consequences for what I do.

Everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial to me. I can participate in a homosexual relationship, but doing so will not be beneficial for me? Why? Because it separates me from God.

God gave us his commandments and told us not to do these things, not because they were evil but because he sought our obedience and our love.

All that being said, a sin is anything that keeps us from a relationship with God. That means that my sitting here and typing may be a sin, unless it actually brings me closer to God as in seeking answers to questions such as your own.

Homosexuality is a sin. Not because it is evil, but because God said not participate in it.

My choosing to do something that God said not to do or conversely to not do something he told me to do, is in fact a sin and it separates me from God's love.

Romans 7:7-9



Immie

I do believe what you are describing is call 'free will.'

 

[ib1yysguy]

Immy, those laws aren't God's laws. They're laws created by men in the bronze age. Indulging your fantasy that the Bible was written by God himself isn't productive, and I don't know why people engage you and people like you on that level. The laws sound retarded because they are retarded. Not eating shellfish is a retarded rule made by an ignorant and frightened group of people in the infancy of civilization.

The end. By the way, you're a bigot. So is SM and anyone else who would use the bible to justify bigotry and hatred and attempt to claim the moral high ground in doing so.

 

[Immanuel]

I do believe what you are describing is call 'free will.'

I don't believe we have "free will".

If we had "free will", I could chose not to be sinful, but, I can't seem to get a grasp on that part of freedom. Instead:

Again into Romans 7

15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

If I had free will, I could choose to be spiritual and good. Unfortunately, even though I would choose to be a saint, I am, in fact, a sinner.

We only have the free will to choose not to obey God. We can't even on our own, choose God.

Immie

 

[ib1yysguy]

That's an utterly gruesome point of view, Immy. That means God "made" you predestined to being damned to hell at the end of your short and miserable life. Since you don't have free will, you're unable to change that outcome. You were sentenced to Hell before you were even born by a God that is supposed to love you.

It is incredible to me that anyone would find this appealing enough to suspend their intellect in order to believe it.

 

[Immanuel]

Immy, those laws aren't God's laws. They're laws created by men in the bronze age. Indulging your fantasy that the Bible was written by God himself isn't productive, and I don't know why people engage you and people like you on that level. The laws sound retarded because they are retarded. Not eating shellfish is a retarded rule made by an ignorant and frightened group of people in the infancy of civilization.

The end. By the way, you're a bigot. So is SM and anyone else who would use the bible to justify bigotry and hatred and attempt to claim the moral high ground in doing so.

What hatred?

I have placed myself on the same level as homosexuals. I have not condemned them (as this is the sin we are discussing here) at all. I have said they, like me are sinners, yet, God has shown his love to them as well as me through his son, Jesus Christ.

I don't think you have been following any of this thread, so you don't really know what you are talking about here.

Immie

 

[DamnYankee]

That's an utterly gruesome point of view, Immy. That means God "made" you predestined to being damned to hell at the end of your short and miserable life. Since you don't have free will, you're unable to change that outcome. You were sentenced to Hell before you were even born by a God that is supposed to love you.

It is incredible to me that anyone would find this appealing enough to suspend their intellect in order to believe it.

I owe you a neg rep for the baseless one that you gave me, asshole.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Immy, those laws aren't God's laws. They're laws created by men in the bronze age. Indulging your fantasy that the Bible was written by God himself isn't productive, and I don't know why people engage you and people like you on that level. The laws sound retarded because they are retarded. Not eating shellfish is a retarded rule made by an ignorant and frightened group of people in the infancy of civilization.

The end. By the way, you're a bigot. So is SM and anyone else who would use the bible to justify bigotry and hatred and attempt to claim the moral high ground in doing so.

your entire post is bigoted

 

[ib1yysguy]

your entire post is bigoted

ZOMG I POINTED OUT THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST AND USING HIM AS AN EXCUSE TO HATE PEOPLE MAKES YOU A BIGOT! ZOMG ZOMG

Viewing the bible as anything other then purely allegorical makes you a retard.

 

[maineman]

I don't eat shellfish... I am allergic to it, Thank God... that shit is nasty.

Yes, I do believe that it is a sin to break God's laws even laws that don't make sense. God had a reason for giving those laws and I believe some of those laws were given just to show us our need for a savior and for no other reason than that.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden. Why? Did God really care if their eyes would be open and if they would be "like God"? No, God gave them that command simply as a tool of obedience. "Thou shalt not... Why? Because I said so."

St Paul writes to the people of Corinth regarding sexual immorality:

1 Corinthians 6:12


and later in chapter 10 verse 23, he writes regarding the freedom of believers:



I can do as I please, but there are consequences for what I do.

Everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial to me. I can participate in a homosexual relationship, but doing so will not be beneficial for me? Why? Because it separates me from God.

God gave us his commandments and told us not to do these things, not because they were evil but because he sought our obedience and our love.

All that being said, a sin is anything that keeps us from a relationship with God. That means that my sitting here and typing may be a sin, unless it actually brings me closer to God as in seeking answers to questions such as your own.

Homosexuality is a sin. Not because it is evil, but because God said not participate in it.

My choosing to do something that God said not to do or conversely to not do something he told me to do, is in fact a sin and it separates me from God's love.

Romans 7:7-9



Immie

so...you think that because Leviticus says that eating shellfish is a sin, or trimming your beard is a sin, or cutting your sideburns is a sin, that if YOU do that now, in the 21st century, you are somehow separating yourself from God's will?

really?

you really believe that every one of Moses' 613 laws are put there to test YOU today?

 

[Immanuel]

so...you think that because Leviticus says that eating shellfish is a sin, or trimming your beard is a sin, or cutting your sideburns is a sin, that if YOU do that now, in the 21st century, you are somehow separating yourself from God's will?

really?

you really believe that every one of Moses' 613 laws are put there to test YOU today?

Interesting... a minister that feels that he can discard the parts of God's Word that he doesn't like. Hmm, where do you find that in the Word of God? How do you decide which parts are relevant to today and which one's God lied about or that someone else just put in there because they wanted to speak for God?

So tell me, what gives you the right to judge God and his word?

You condemned Yurt in this very thread for cherry-picking Mosaic Law and yet you are doing the very same thing. As a minister, you should know that disobedience to even one commandment is disobedience to the entire Law.

Tell me, does the UCC teach that anything at all is a sin or does it teach that one can lie, steal, kill, covet, bear false witness against one's neighbors, eat shellfish, trim their beards, cut their sideburns, have homosexual sex etc. and all of that is simply a-okay with God?

How do you draw the line of sin? What is sin if it is not disobedience to God's commandments? Who are you to judge which commandments are relevant to today's world and which ones aren't?

Yes, you are separating yourself from God's will whenever you disobey one of his commandments. Fortunately, he provided an answer for you and I. Hopefully, you discuss his answer every Sunday when you stand up in front of your congregation and begin to speak. Hopefully, your message isn't of the same style as Joel Olstein, "just smile and you will be happy, who needs God?"

Immie

 

[maineman]

Interesting... a minister that feels that he can discard the parts of God's Word that he doesn't like. Hmm, where do you find that in the Word of God? How do you decide which parts are relevant to today and which one's God lied about or that someone else just put in there because they wanted to speak for God?

So tell me, what gives you the right to judge God and his word?

You condemned Yurt in this very thread for cherry-picking Mosaic Law and yet you are doing the very same thing. As a minister, you should know that disobedience to even one commandment is disobedience to the entire Law.

Tell me, does the UCC teach that anything at all is a sin or does it teach that one can lie, steal, kill, covet, bear false witness against one's neighbors, eat shellfish, trim their beards, cut their sideburns, have homosexual sex etc. and all of that is simply a-okay with God?

How do you draw the line of sin? What is sin if it is not disobedience to God's commandments? Who are you to judge which commandments are relevant to today's world and which ones aren't?

Yes, you are separating yourself from God's will whenever you disobey one of his commandments. Fortunately, he provided an answer for you and I. Hopefully, you discuss his answer every Sunday when you stand up in front of your congregation and begin to speak. Hopefully, your message isn't of the same style as Joel Olstein, "just smile and you will be happy, who needs God?"

Immie

I did not condemn yurt for cherry picking Mosaic law...I condemned him for being hypocritical by attacking ME for doing so when clearly he does so himself...and I would suggest that you are guilty of EXACTLY the same thing.

Do you trim your beard, Immie? Do you trim your sideburns? Have you ever eaten a fried clam or any creature from the sea that did not have scales or fins?

SINNER..... HYPOCRITE

 

[Immanuel]

I did not condemn yurt for cherry picking Mosaic law...I condemned him for being hypocritical by attacking ME for doing so when clearly he does so himself...and I would suggest that you are guilty of EXACTLY the same thing.

Do you trim your beard, Immie? Do you trim your sideburns? Have you ever eaten a fried clam or any creature from the sea that did not have scales or fins?

SINNER..... HYPOCRITE

Excuse me? Sinner? I have said I am a sinner. Where am I being hypocritical?

I have said that homosexuals are sinners and that by living their lifestyles they are sinners. I have also said that my sins are just as sinful as their sins. I fail to see where I am being hypocritical.

I asked you how you can say that homosexuality is not a sin. That is all I asked at first.

As for eating fried clams, well, by mistake, I got some once. They were put into a batch of fried rice (my favorite meal) by a gay friend one time. I took two bites and felt sick. I asked him if he put seafood in the rice. He told me no. I ate two big bowls and then really began to get sick. I couldn't breathe and my eyelids began to swell. I asked him again if there was seafood in the rice. He said, "well, only these canned clams". I spent the rest of the night in Kaiser Permanente Hospital in Santa Clara, Ca getting adrenaline shots trying to keep me from going into anaphalatic (sp?) shock. Each time I get seafood it gets worse.

Again, I ask you where am I being a hypocrite? I am not condemning you or homosexuals for their sin. I have simply stated that it is a sin and as all sin is disobedience to God so is homosexuality. The punishment for all sin (whether homosexuality or shaving one's beard) is death and separation from God, but God has provided an answer to our sin and redeemed us from that sin.

Again, where am I being a hypocrite?

It seems to me that this is the kind of message that a preacher SHOULD be giving, not a message that everything is peachy-keen and homosexuals are not sinners and that they should just be happy and not read those nasty verses in Leviticus.

Immie

 

[Whomever]

I am not a sinner.

 

[maineman]

Excuse me? Sinner? I have said I am a sinner. Where am I being hypocritical?

I have said that homosexuals are sinners and that by living their lifestyles they are sinners. I have also said that my sins are just as sinful as their sins. I fail to see where I am being hypocritical.

I asked you how you can say that homosexuality is not a sin. That is all I asked at first.

As for eating fried clams, well, by mistake, I got some once. They were put into a batch of fried rice (my favorite meal) by a gay friend one time. I took two bites and felt sick. I asked him if he put seafood in the rice. He told me no. I ate two big bowls and then really began to get sick. I couldn't breathe and my eyelids began to swell. I asked him again if there was seafood in the rice. He said, "well, only these canned clams". I spent the rest of the night in Kaiser Permanente Hospital in Santa Clara, Ca getting adrenaline shots trying to keep me from going into anaphalatic (sp?) shock. Each time I get seafood it gets worse.

Again, I ask you where am I being a hypocrite? I am not condemning you or homosexuals for their sin. I have simply stated that it is a sin and as all sin is disobedience to God so is homosexuality. The punishment for all sin (whether homosexuality or shaving one's beard) is death and separation from God, but God has provided an answer to our sin and redeemed us from that sin.

Again, where am I being a hypocrite?

Immie

do you routinely break mosaic law? yes or no?

if so, isn't calling someone ELSE a sinner for breaking mosaic law hypocritical? yes or no?

 

[Immanuel]

do you routinely break mosaic law? yes or no?

if so, isn't calling someone ELSE a sinner for breaking mosaic law hypocritical? yes or no?

Are you deliberately not reading what I write?

A hypocrite would say, "You are a sinner because you break Mosaic law, but I don't and I am not a sinner." That is not at all what I have written. Not even close.

Immie

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Are you deliberately not reading what I write?

Immie

don't fall for his games...

huge difference between calling something NOT a sin, versus that is a sin, but i do not judge you as i too am a sinner. god's word is clear...

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

ZOMG I POINTED OUT THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST AND USING HIM AS AN EXCUSE TO HATE PEOPLE MAKES YOU A BIGOT! ZOMG ZOMG

Viewing the bible as anything other then purely allegorical makes you a retard.

lmao....reread your post moron...you did nothing but INSULT and JUDGE those who follow...IOW, your post is as bigotted as what you proclaimed of others....

Immy, those laws aren't God's laws. They're laws created by men in the bronze age. Indulging your fantasy that the Bible was written by God himself isn't productive, and I don't know why people engage you and people like you on that level. The laws sound retarded because they are retarded. Not eating shellfish is a retarded rule made by an ignorant and frightened group of people in the infancy of civilization.

The end. By the way, you're a bigot. So is SM and anyone else who would use the bible to justify bigotry and hatred and attempt to claim the moral high ground in doing so.

MORON