Why there will be no new laws on guns

evince said:
and then count the number of dead people your insistance of a gun saturated country have caused
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Swimming pools kill more kids than the guns ever thought to kill and on a per capita basis are 100 times more likely to kill your kid than anybody with a gun. This doesn't even count drownings that don't occur in pools. By your logic, this water stuff should be made illegal.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/27/levittpoolsvsguns/
 
evince said:
how does that reflect the drug laws
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I didn't mention drug laws, but since you brought it up, let me ask you some questions...

It's totally illegal to manufacture crystal meth in this country, and most of the active ingredients in crystal meth are regulated to the point we have to show ID to get them at the drugstore. Is crystal meth still available? Is it still a problem?

How about heroin and cocaine? Both are highly illegal in America, no one is allowed to own them.... has it stopped heroin and cocaine use in America?

How about marijuana? Most everywhere, it's illegal to own or grow, has it stopped the usage of marijuana?
 
Dixie said:
I didn't mention drug laws, but since you brought it up, let me ask you some questions...

It's totally illegal to manufacture crystal meth in this country, and most of the active ingredients in crystal meth are regulated to the point we have to show ID to get them at the drugstore. Is crystal meth still available? Is it still a problem?

How about heroin and cocaine? Both are highly illegal in America, no one is allowed to own them.... has it stopped heroin and cocaine use in America?

How about marijuana? Most everywhere, it's illegal to own or grow, has it stopped the usage of marijuana?
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No laws could have prevented the Connecticut tragedy either. It was a failure of mental health.

Do liberals give a shit about dead children or is this tragedy simply impetus for their gun grabbing instincts?

How much destruction is a result of our failure as a society to treat mental illness?
 
Rune said:
No laws could have prevented the Connecticut tragedy either. It was a failure of mental health.

Do liberals give a shit about dead children or is this tragedy simply impetus for their gun grabbing instincts?

How much destruction is a result of our failure as a society to treat mental illness?
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I agree that no laws could have prevented this. I also agree we have some mental health problems that need to be addressed, starting with our decisions in the 70s and 80s to strike down 'involuntary commitment' laws, preventing any adult from being held in a mental institution against their will. That certainly needs to be revisited in light of this tragedy, but I can't honestly say that even this would have prevented the tragedy in CT. I firmly believe we have evil in this world, and sometimes evil will happen, regardless of what we do to prevent it.

As a society, we have to do a lot to help prevent things like this, and I don't know that America wants to do what they need to. We should be raising our children to respect life, respect others, and believe in something greater than self. We need to stop being complacent and allowing them to hold up in room on the Internet night and day without any social interaction or guidance. We need to get involved in their lives and stop allowing culture to bombard them with images of violence and the lackadaisical attitude that things like this don't really matter.

Are we ready to do this? Or do we want to exploit this tragedy to push political agendas and remain mired in our denial?
 
Dixie said:
Here's the thing, no one is ever going to take guns from law-abiding gun owners. They won't allow it. So we can all PRETEND that we're going to do this someday, but it's just not ever going to happen in America. Sorry Libs.

Not only can we not take guns away from law-abiding gun owners, we can't even stop illegal guns from crossing our borders. Regardless of what laws you pass, there will always be guns in this country. Now, if there was some way to wave a magic wand and make all the guns disappear, perhaps we could have a gun-free America, but we don't live in a fantasy world. Most of us, at least.
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Dixie....you conservatives are kinda stuck in this "simple solutions for simple minds." rut. Relax. They're not comming for your guns. Now some insane dude may drop into your local school, theater, church, etc and pop a cap into you or one of your kids but they aint coming for your guns. This isn't just a "gun" issue. Though granted it would be nice to find some constitutionally valid method to keep wackos like Conservative and STY from getting their hands on a plastic spoon, let alone a fire arm, this is more an issue on how to deal with mentally ill and potentially violent adults then it is a gun issue.

In fact the increase in frequency of these kinds of violent episodes probably corelates more to the implementation of PAIMI (protection and advocacy for individuals with mental illness act of 1986) which has tied families, law enforcement and the judicial system hands when it comes to dealing with mentally ill persons. Maybe we need to start a national discussion by reviewing this law and weigh the rights of the mentally ill versus public safety.
 
Dixie said:
Gun legislation wouldn't have mattered here, the perpetrator didn't obey legislation.
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Agreed, however had he not had access to a military style assualt weapon the number of deaths probably would have been far less. That's a point which cannot be dismissed easily.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Dixie....you conservatives are kinda stuck in this "simple solutions for simple minds." rut. Relax. They're not comming for your guns. Now some insane dude may drop into your local school, theater, church, etc and pop a cap into you or one of your kids but they aint coming for your guns. This isn't just a "gun" issue. Though granted it would be nice to find some constitutionally valid method to keep wackos like Conservative and STY from getting their hands on a plastic spoon, let alone a fire arm, this is more an issue on how to deal with mentally ill and potentially violent adults then it is a gun issue.

In fact the increase in frequency of these kinds of violent episodes probably corelates more to the implementation of PAIMI (protection and advocacy for individuals with mental illness act of 1986) which has tied families, law enforcement and the judicial system hands when it comes to dealing with mentally ill persons. Maybe we need to start a national discussion by reviewing this law and weigh the rights of the mentally ill versus public safety.
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Or, we could get them some help.

[h=1]Crying out for help but not finding it[/h]
 
Damocles said:
Swimming pools kill more kids than the guns ever thought to kill and on a per capita basis are 100 times more likely to kill your kid than anybody with a gun. This doesn't even count drownings that don't occur in pools. By your logic, this water stuff should be made illegal.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/27/levittpoolsvsguns/
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So do automobiles. Should we ban cars? Guns are not the problem here. It's guns and crazy people that's the problem with emphasis on the crazy people. The crazy fuck could have taken out as many kids with a Chevy Nova in the parking lot as he did with a gun.
 
Dixie said:
I agree that no laws could have prevented this. I also agree we have some mental health problems that need to be addressed, starting with our decisions in the 70s and 80s to strike down 'involuntary commitment' laws, preventing any adult from being held in a mental institution against their will. That certainly needs to be revisited in light of this tragedy, but I can't honestly say that even this would have prevented the tragedy in CT. I firmly believe we have evil in this world, and sometimes evil will happen, regardless of what we do to prevent it.

As a society, we have to do a lot to help prevent things like this, and I don't know that America wants to do what they need to. We should be raising our children to respect life, respect others, and believe in something greater than self. We need to stop being complacent and allowing them to hold up in room on the Internet night and day without any social interaction or guidance. We need to get involved in their lives and stop allowing culture to bombard them with images of violence and the lackadaisical attitude that things like this don't really matter.

Are we ready to do this? Or do we want to exploit this tragedy to push political agendas and remain mired in our denial?
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Dixie's got a point. If you don't believe that there's evil in this world.....just try leaving the toilet seat up in my house. You'll find out!!
 
Dixie said:
Here's the thing, no one is ever going to take guns from law-abiding gun owners. They won't allow it. So we can all PRETEND that we're going to do this someday, but it's just not ever going to happen in America. Sorry Libs.

Not only can we not take guns away from law-abiding gun owners, we can't even stop illegal guns from crossing our borders. Regardless of what laws you pass, there will always be guns in this country. Now, if there was some way to wave a magic wand and make all the guns disappear, perhaps we could have a gun-free America, but we don't live in a fantasy world. Most of us, at least.
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They are all about banning so-called assault weapons, but then they started the "Fast And Furious" program, which allowed proven drug dealers to purchase thousands of so-called assault weapons. Even though the gun shop people did not want to sell the weapon to those drug dealers, the Feds ordered them to make the sales. The gun owners, who I know will not give up any weapons, so where does it go from there?
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Easier said than done. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. In many of these cases the assailant has had access to metal health care but declined it.
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No one said it would be easy.
It is true; the hardest part about treating the mentally ill is getting them to take their meds.
However, when one does need help, it would be nice if there were hospital beds available, and funding.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Agreed, however had he not had access to a military style assualt weapon the number of deaths probably would have been far less. That's a point which cannot be dismissed easily.
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Well you can say "military style assault weapon" and get lots of mileage out of that, but the honest truth is, a .223 caliber rifle is, to an avid high-powered weapon enthusiast, a step above a pellet gun. The "style" of weapon simply had nothing to do with anything here. This was a deranged individual, and there's nothing to say he wouldn't have attempted the very same thing with a butcher knife, we just don't know. Again, this had more to do with a failure to address the mental health issue, not the guns.
 
evince said:
Dont act all violent and pretend its one of us coming to your door.
Its the ATF and your gun is now illegal.
You handing it over?
you will do it in the red hot second without one little hesitation
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so let's take a look at your liberal hypocrisy. you whine and moan about guns, then try to bitch that gun rights supporters are not mourning the loss of the kids. you then move on to proposing bans, but get all shocked and shaken when told that if you try to take our guns, we're coming after you. so you really don't have a problem with people dying by guns because you're willing to sacrifice the lives of ATF agents to kill us or be killed to take our guns.

you talk a shit ton of crap about courage, so I propose that YOU PERSONALLY come try to take our guns.
 
evince said:
Nope I wont watch you.


You just admitted you would try to harm an ATF agent who was doing their job because you are the criminal under the laws
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laws that violate the constitution are to be ignored, so sayeth the courts. 'officers' enforcing illegal laws are themselves the criminals, so sayeth the courts.
 
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