Wow... if this is true... not good for The One

LMAO....

translation:

"I am ashamed that I didn't even read my own link which stated that the SOFA's contain provisions for troop levels etc... and now I will go back to my childish claims of 'you were owned'"

There was nothing that stated that SOFA for "Iraqi Freedom" at that time included troop levels. Nothing at all. You drawing your own wild assumptions based on the fact in General, SOFA can.

alright Dixie, you're becoming a sad sight for the day. This is almost embarrassing b/c you truly believe the crap you're spewing.

Provide an uneditoralized link that states explicitely that Obama wanted to delay troop withdrawal until after the election and then we can have a discussion. Trying to show you how much of a retard you're being is getting old. You're a bushie, you'll never see the truth.
 
Superfreak, I think I should explain something to you: this thread ended about 20 posts ago for you, when you were thoroughly humiliated, much more so than anyone I can remember in recent history on JPP.

For you to persist in the argument that you "know what Obama was really thinking" without any proof at all is laughable, particularly since, if he WAS thinking what you seem to think he was thinking, it would be praiseworthy for you; something hilarious, and a way he could really "put one over" on Bush.

I mean, honestly; if there is one thread you shouldn't keep plugging for the "last word" on, it's this one.

where did I proclaim that I knew what Obama was thinking??? He stated he wanted the negotiations delayed. Those negotiations include troop withdrawals as Dung finally admitted. Had Maliki done Obamas bidding, these negotiations would not still be going on.
 
What a load of crap.... the whole friggin point of stating that it would be a sustained surge is that it is idiotic to put an arbitrary timetable on such an event. You DO NOT KNOW going in how long it will have to last. Which is where the Iraqi government and the military commanders on the ground have to use their judgement.

Second, now that the Iraqi government is agreeing that the time for withdrawals is at hand, we are seeing it being done (planned at this point). But they are still not agreeing to Obamas perpetual 'lets withdraw with a timeline' bullshit.

Again, as for the exact wording of what was being DISCUSSED at the time, I do not have a copy and NEITHER do you apparently or you would have put it forth.


The issue, my friend, is the status of the negotiations as of the time Obama made his comment, that is, in early July. You claim that it included troop withdrawals. Well, show it.

And you can't just go around redefining words in the English language just to suit your current needs. A surge is, by definition, short and transitory. A surge cannot be "sustained." What you are talking about is escalation and that's what I called it at the time. However, I was told back then that it would only be "termporary."

Finally, the Iraqis are a whole hell of a lot closer to Obama's plan (off by a few months) than they are McCain's. This probably has more to so with the fact that McCain has no plan other than some troops will begin to withdraw at some undefined point in the future if it seems like it might be a good idea.
 
There was nothing that stated that SOFA for "Iraqi Freedom" at that time included troop levels. Nothing at all. You drawing your own wild assumptions based on the fact in General, SOFA can.

alright Dixie, you're becoming a sad sight for the day. This is almost embarrassing b/c you truly believe the crap you're spewing.

Provide an uneditoralized link that states explicitely that Obama wanted to delay troop withdrawal until after the election and then we can have a discussion. Trying to show you how much of a retard you're being is getting old. You're a bushie, you'll never see the truth.

Again, I am not privy, nor do I think any of you are of the wording of the SOFA at that time. Otherwise you would have posted it by now. The point is that HAD Maliki stopped negotiating as Obama suggested until after the election, then they would not be having the CURRENT talks. What the fuck is so hard to comprehend about that?

I know you are all suffering from having your image of the messiah tarnished, but for the love of the One, realize he is not perfect. he fucked up. Deal with it.
 
where did I proclaim that I knew what Obama was thinking??? He stated he wanted the negotiations delayed. Those negotiations include troop withdrawals as Dung finally admitted. Had Maliki done Obamas bidding, these negotiations would not still be going on.


Dumbass, those talks now include troop withdrawals because Maliki endorsed Obama's proposal and Bush reluctantly agreed.

At the time Obama said to put the deal off, it included 58 permanent bases and no mention of troop withdrawals.
 
Dumbass, those talks now include troop withdrawals because Maliki endorsed Obama's proposal and Bush reluctantly agreed.

At the time Obama said to put the deal off, it included 58 permanent bases and no mention of troop withdrawals.
Rubbish, there were reports of Maliki's government asking for a timeline before Obama got anywhere near Iraq.

Here is one story about it:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92489073

A week later it was reported:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/07/maliki_embraces_obama_timetabl.html

Now we understand that while he was there he also attempted to negotiate a delay in the talks.

Of course, Bush realized that there was a good argument now that we could begin to leave and moved in that direction as well, but it was a full week of talking about it before Obama and Maliki slapped flesh in the form of a handshake.
 
Again, I am not privy, nor do I think any of you are of the wording of the SOFA at that time. Otherwise you would have posted it by now.

The truest thing you've said all day.

You're not privy. You don't know. You cling to one editorial like it was the fcking bible and now you finally admit you're not privy.

Owned once again.
 
For Dixiefreak:

BAGHDAD - Iraqi lawmakers say the United States is demanding 58 bases as part of a proposed "status of forces" agreement that will allow U.S. troops to remain in the country indefinitely.

Leading members of the two ruling Shiite parties said in a series of interviews the Iraqi government rejected this proposal along with another U.S. demand that would have effectively handed over to the United States the power to determine if a hostile act from another country is aggression against Iraq. Lawmakers said they fear this power would drag Iraq into a war between the United States and Iran.

"The points that were put forth by the Americans were more abominable than the occupation," said Jalal al Din al Saghir, a leading lawmaker from the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq. "We were occupied by order of the Security Council," he said, referring to the 2004 Resolution mandating a U.S. military occupation in Iraq at the head of an international coalition. "But now we are being asked to sign for our own occupation. That is why we have absolutely refused all that we have seen so far."

Other conditions sought by the United States include control over Iraqi air space up to 30,000 feet and immunity from prosecution for U.S. troops and private military contractors. The agreement would run indefinitely but be subject to cancellation with two years notice from either side, lawmakers said.

"It would impair Iraqi sovereignty," said Ali al Adeeb a leading member of Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki's Dawa party of the proposed accord. "The Americans insist so far that is they who define what is an aggression on Iraq and what is democracy inside Iraq... if we come under aggression we should define it and ask for help."

Both Saghir and Adeeb said that the Iraqi government rejected the terms as unacceptable. They said the government wants a U.S. presence and a U.S. security guarantee but also wants to control security within the country, stop indefinite detentions of Iraqis by U.S. forces and have a say in U.S. forces' conduct in Iraq.

The 58 bases would represent an expansion of the U.S. presence here. Currently, the United States operates out of about 30 major bases, not including smaller facilities such as combat outposts, according to a U.S. military map.

" Is there sovereignty for Iraq - or isn't there? If it is left to them, they would ask for immunity even for the American dogs," Saghir said. "We have given Bush our views - some new ideas and I find that there is a certain harmony between his thoughts and ours. And he promised to tell the negotiators to change their methods."

Maliki returned Monday from his second visit to Iran, whose Islamic rulers are adamantly opposed to the accord. Iran's Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamanei said following meetings with Maliki that we have "no doubt that the Americans' dreams will not come true."

Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister, criticized the lawmakers for poisoning the public discussion before an agreement is concluded. He said U.S. officials had been flexible in the talks, as well as "frank and honest since the beginning."

"This is an ongoing process," Zebari said. "There is no agreement yet. Proposals have been modified, they have been changed and altered. We don't have a final text yet for them to be judgmental."

Zebari, who said a negotiating session was held with U.S. officials on the new accord Monday, said any agreement will be submitted to the Iraqi parliament for approval. Leaders in the U.S. Congress have also demanded a say in the agreement, but the Bush administration says it is planning to make this an executive accord not subject to Senate ratification.

Republican presidential candidate John McCain didn't respond for requests for comment, but the presumptive Democratic nominee, Barack Obama, said through a spokesman that he believes the Bush administration must submit the agreement to Congress and that it should make "absolutely clear" that the United States will not maintain permanent bases in Iraq.

Lee Hamilton, a former Democratic congressman from Indiana, said he had not heard of a plan to seek 50 or more bases in Iraq, and that if it is the case, Congress is likely to challenge the idea. "Congress would have a lot of questions, and the president should be very careful in negotiating," Hamilton, who now directs the Woodrow Wilson Center for Scholars, told McClatchy.

The top U.S. Embassy spokesman in Iraq rejected the latest Iraqi criticism.

"Look, there is going to be no occupation," said U.S. spokesman Adam Ereli. "Now it's perfectly understandable that there are those that are following this closely in Iraq who have concerns about what this means for Iraqi sovereignty and independence. We understand that and we appreciate that and that's why nothing is going to be rammed down anybody's throat.

"It's kind of like a forced marriage. It just doesn't work. They either want you or they don't want you. You can't use coercion to get them to like you," he added.

U.S. officials in Baghdad say they are determined to complete the accord by July 31 so that parliamentary deliberations can be completed before the Dec. 31 expiration of the UN mandate.

The agreement will not specify how many troops or where they will be deployed, said a U.S. official who asked not to be named due to the sensitivity of the subject, but the agreement will detail the legal framework under which U.S. troops will operate. The U.S. official said that in the absence of a UN resolution authorizing the use of force, "there have to be terms that are in place. That's the reality that we're trying to accommodate."

Iraqis are determined to get their nation removed from the purview of the U.N. Security Council under Chapter 7 of the U.N. Charter, which allows the international body to declare a country a threat to international peace, a step the U.N. took after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. Iraqi officials say that designation clearly is no longer appropriate.

But even on that basic request, the U.S. has not promised to support Iraq, Saghir said, and is insteadn withholding that support as a pressure point in negotiations.

U.S. demands "conflict with our sovereignty and we refuse them," said Hassan Sneid, a member of the Dawa party and a lawmaker on the security committee in the parliament. "I don't expect these negotiations will be done by the exact date. The Americans want so many things and the fact is we want different things."

"If we had to choose one or the other, an extension of the mandate or this agreement, we would probably choose the extension," Saghir said. "It is possible that in December we will send a letter the UN informing them that Iraq no longer needs foreign forces to control its internal security. As for external defense, we are still not ready."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/40372.html
 
The issue, my friend, is the status of the negotiations as of the time Obama made his comment, that is, in early July. You claim that it included troop withdrawals. Well, show it.

And you can't just go around redefining words in the English language just to suit your current needs. A surge is, by definition, short and transitory. A surge cannot be "sustained." What you are talking about is escalation and that's what I called it at the time. However, I was told back then that it would only be "termporary."

Finally, the Iraqis are a whole hell of a lot closer to Obama's plan (off by a few months) than they are McCain's. This probably has more to so with the fact that McCain has no plan other than some troops will begin to withdraw at some undefined point in the future if it seems like it might be a good idea.

Again, I am describing it as McCain did, so that I don't have to hear endless amounts of bullshit about word games over him not stating it the way I said he did. You are correct in that sustained surge = escalation. Whatever you want to call it... it was exactly what was needed.... and while it did not have a set timetable for withdrawal, it is dishonest of you to pretend that McCain meant it to be a permanent force. It was always meant to be withdrawn once viable to do so. McCain simply didn't want an arbitrary timeline for withdrawal put upon the additional forces.

To Obamas plan NOW. AFTER the surge has provided that capability to discuss withdrawals. It is like USCit claiming great knowledge about predicting a downturn in the economy.... he kept proclaiming it long enough that eventually he was right. Same for Obama... the troops eventually had to come home. Withdrawal had to eventually happen. Proclaiming time and time again for mandatory timelines and then proclaiming victory three years after you began the chant is kind of ridiculous.

The Iraqis are at the point of being able to agree to talks of troop withdrawal because of McCAIN's plan.... not because of anything Obama has proposed. Obama wanted to pull troops out at the height of violence. While we will never know for sure how that would have played out, personally I am of the opinion that his 'plan' would have blown up in our faces. His type of 'strategy' is on par with Bush's arbitrary decisions for the first several years of the war.

Obama.... four more years of Bush.
 
Rubbish, there were reports of Maliki's government asking for a timeline before Obama got anywhere near Iraq.

Here is one story about it:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92489073

A week later it was reported:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/07/maliki_embraces_obama_timetabl.html

Now we understand that while he was there he also attempted to negotiate a delay in the talks.

Of course, Bush realized that there was a good argument now that we could begin to leave and moved in that direction as well, but it was a full week of talking about it before Obama and Maliki slapped flesh in the form of a handshake.


You are correct, I was imprecise. I should have said that the status of forces agreement under discussion now includes withdrawal timelines. Before the July meeting Maliki was asking for it and getting nowhere.
 
"This is an ongoing process," Zebari said. "There is no agreement yet. Proposals have been modified, they have been changed and altered. We don't have a final text yet for them to be judgmental."


This doesn't prove anything. To back up, what we are looking for from you is proof that the status of forces agreement that Obama wanted to postpone included withdrawal dates for US troops. As is clear from the article, the status of forces agreement under discussion had no such provision. Instead, if provided for 58 permanent US bases and no provision for the withdrawal of troops.

Try again.
 
Again, I am describing it as McCain did, so that I don't have to hear endless amounts of bullshit about word games over him not stating it the way I said he did. You are correct in that sustained surge = escalation. Whatever you want to call it... it was exactly what was needed.... and while it did not have a set timetable for withdrawal, it is dishonest of you to pretend that McCain meant it to be a permanent force. It was always meant to be withdrawn once viable to do so. McCain simply didn't want an arbitrary timeline for withdrawal put upon the additional forces.

To Obamas plan NOW. AFTER the surge has provided that capability to discuss withdrawals. It is like USCit claiming great knowledge about predicting a downturn in the economy.... he kept proclaiming it long enough that eventually he was right. Same for Obama... the troops eventually had to come home. Withdrawal had to eventually happen. Proclaiming time and time again for mandatory timelines and then proclaiming victory three years after you began the chant is kind of ridiculous.

The Iraqis are at the point of being able to agree to talks of troop withdrawal because of McCAIN's plan.... not because of anything Obama has proposed. Obama wanted to pull troops out at the height of violence. While we will never know for sure how that would have played out, personally I am of the opinion that his 'plan' would have blown up in our faces. His type of 'strategy' is on par with Bush's arbitrary decisions for the first several years of the war.

Obama.... four more years of Bush.


Your personal opinion is about as valuable as AIG stock.
 
The issue, my friend, is the status of the negotiations as of the time Obama made his comment, that is, in early July. You claim that it included troop withdrawals. Well, show it.

And you can't just go around redefining words in the English language just to suit your current needs. A surge is, by definition, short and transitory. A surge cannot be "sustained." What you are talking about is escalation and that's what I called it at the time. However, I was told back then that it would only be "termporary."

Finally, the Iraqis are a whole hell of a lot closer to Obama's plan (off by a few months) than they are McCain's. This probably has more to so with the fact that McCain has no plan other than some troops will begin to withdraw at some undefined point in the future if it seems like it might be a good idea.

QFT - some of us were calling a pig, a pig, even then.
 
The truest thing you've said all day.

You're not privy. You don't know. You cling to one editorial like it was the fcking bible and now you finally admit you're not privy.

Owned once again.

1) I stated a long time ago... after Dung posted the google the author comment, that I did not hold the article to be true, that I needed corroboration.

2) YOUR piece, that ALSO stated he requested a delay in negotiations is when I stated that Obama is doing so for political gain.

3) As Dung just posted, the negotiations were ONGOING. Had they been delayed as Obama requested, we would NOT be at the point of discussing troop withdrawals TODAY. We would instead be sitting with our thumbs up our asses for another six months while we wait for the next administration to be sworn in, for them to get up to speed, for them to BEGIN the negotiations process.

4) So you see... I never claimed to know what was in the negotiations at the time. That was a strawman to divert from the fact that had the negotiations been delayed as Obama asked... the CURRENT negotiations would not be taking place.
 
1) I stated a long time ago... after Dung posted the google the author comment, that I did not hold the article to be true, that I needed corroboration.

2) YOUR piece, that ALSO stated he requested a delay in negotiations is when I stated that Obama is doing so for political gain.

3) As Dung just posted, the negotiations were ONGOING. Had they been delayed as Obama requested, we would NOT be at the point of discussing troop withdrawals TODAY. We would instead be sitting with our thumbs up our asses for another six months while we wait for the next administration to be sworn in, for them to get up to speed, for them to BEGIN the negotiations process.

4) So you see... I never claimed to know what was in the negotiations at the time. That was a strawman to divert from the fact that had the negotiations been delayed as Obama asked... the CURRENT negotiations would not be taking place.



One more thing, show me where Obama wanted to delay negotiations as opposed to finalizing a binding agreement that included 58 permanent bases and no provision for withdrawal of US troops?

And yes, you did claim to know what the status of forces agreement contained at the time. Specifically, you said that it included provisions for the withdrawal of American troops. It didn't. You were wrong, yet you refuse to admit it. Just like every other Republican in the world.
 
This doesn't prove anything. To back up, what we are looking for from you is proof that the status of forces agreement that Obama wanted to postpone included withdrawal dates for US troops. As is clear from the article, the status of forces agreement under discussion had no such provision. Instead, if provided for 58 permanent US bases and no provision for the withdrawal of troops.

Try again.

Do try to follow along....

If the status of forces agreement negotiations had been delayed until after the new administration took over as Obama requested...

would the CURRENT negotiations still be taking place? Negotiations that have been evolving ever since Obamas idiotic request.

The answer dear dung... is NO, they would not be taking place. Which means the current talk of troop withdrawals, which by your admission IS a part of the current negotiations would have been DELAYED until early February (at the earliest).
 
Yours is as valuable as Lehmans.

ooooooohhh now we debating Dung style... cheap meaningless insults rather than discussion??? You are better than that. Lorax isn't. But you are.


I'm trying to debate you but you keep saying you never said things, refuse to provided evidence of the nonsense you keep spewing, refuse to admit you're wrong and on top of it all adopt definitions of common English words that are the opposite of the actual definition of those words.

You're unpossible.
 
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