Russia to annex Kherson Oblast

[Cypress]

Im aware of the speeches.
Speeches dont motivate wars. It's internal politics/justifications to sell the war at home

You have to ask yourself why the redlines letters -
if Biden had taken the opportunity to negotiate would the war started?
Would Putin put himself in the position of starting a war during negotiations over Russian security? no

NATO expansion and militarization of Ukraine made the situation untenable

NATO is a minor grievance.

Putin has basically meekly and submissively accepted Finland's and Sweden's application to NATO.

The is issue, was, and always has been that Russian nationalists cannot bear the thought of Ukrainian independence, which they have always considered part and parcel of Holy Mother Russia.

 

[moon]

NATO is a minor grievance.

Putin has basically meekly and submissively accepted Finland's and Sweden's application to NATO.

The is issue, was, and always has been that Russian nationalists cannot bear the thought of Ukrainian independence, which they have always considered part and parcel of Holy Mother Russia.

Nope- NATO's shifty and dangerous advances have hit the buffers, that's all. Russia has been extremely moderate in not pushing back- until now.
Sweden and Finland haven't even consulted Swedes and Fins.

 

[Cypress]

Nope- NATO's shifty and dangerous advances have hit the buffers, that's all. Russia has been extremely moderate in not pushing back- until now.
Sweden and Finland haven't even consulted Swedes and Fins.

^ The opinion of Kremlin-loving Islamophobes carries no weight.

 

[moon]

^ The opinion of Kremlin-loving Islamophobes carries no weight.

Is this your Christmas cracker motto moment ?



Haw, haw.............................haw.

 

[dukkha]

NATO is a minor grievance.

Putin has basically meekly and submissively accepted Finland's and Sweden's application to NATO.

The is issue, was, and always has been that Russian nationalists cannot bear the thought of Ukrainian independence, which they have always considered part and parcel of Holy Mother Russia.

Putin has protested NATO expansion -where does it get him but shoved into a corner and war?
Then other theory is Biden so badly bungled the Afghan rout - Putin sought to take advantage of his
weakness.
I dont buy that because Biden is erratic.
calling for regime change in Russia and then walking it back (among others)

Russia sent the Lavrov letters, Russia has been screaming about NATO expansion and Ukraine's MAP with NATO
Occam's razor says go with the straight forward explanation

 

[Cypress]

Putin has protested NATO expansion -where does it get him but shoved into a corner and war?
Then other theory is Biden so badly bungled the Afghan rout - Putin sought to take advantage of his
weakness.
I dont buy that because Biden is erratic.
calling for regime change in Russia and then walking it back (among others)

Russia sent the Lavrov letters, Russia has been screaming about NATO expansion and Ukraine's MAP with NATO
Occam's razor says go with the straight forward explanation

Even if Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria had not joined NATO, Putin still wanted Ukraine to be reintegrated with Russia. He's been talking about it since the 1990s. His invasion of Georgia in 2008 is an additional line of evidence, because that Invasion had nothing tangible to do with NATO.

If Putin thought Biden would just roll over because of Afghanistan, then Putin made the most serious blunder of his career.
.
The fact is Putin was hoping for Trump in a second term to render NATO irrelevant.

 

[dukkha]

Even if Poland, Romania, and Bulgaria had not joined NATO, Putin still wanted Ukraine to be reintegrated with Russia. He's been talking about it since the 1990s. His invasion of Georgia in 2008 is an additional line of evidence, because that Invasion had nothing tangible to do with NATO.

If Putin thought Biden would just roll over because of Afghanistan, then Putin made the most serious blunder of his career.
.
The fact is Putin was hoping for Trump in a second term to render NATO irrelevant.

your partisan premise that Trump would make NATO irrelevant doesnt square with Trump getting more money out of NATO partners. Solzenberg praised that

https://www.history.com/news/russia-georgia-war-military-nato
Georgia was moving further West, even joining the U.S.-led coalition fighting in the Iraq War in 2003. This process intensified after the election of pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili in 2004.

Georgia on the verge of joining NATO, but not yet subject to the organization’s collective defense agreement, Russia saw an opportunity to rein in its neighbor and demonstrate its military strength in the region.

Sakaashvili ordered his troops to capture the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. Russia swiftly responded by moving its troops to the border and conducting air strikes on Georgian positions in South Ossetia as well as Abkhazia.

With the United States, Great Britain and NATO calling for a ceasefire, the conflict continued for five days, as Russia quickly took control of Tskhinvali and rolled its tanks and troops through Ossetia into Georgia, stopping only about 30 miles from Tbilisi, the Georgian capital.

 

[Cypress]

your partisan premise that Trump would make NATO irrelevant doesnt square with Trump getting more money out of NATO partners. Solzenberg praised that

https://www.history.com/news/russia-georgia-war-military-nato
Georgia was moving further West, even joining the U.S.-led coalition fighting in the Iraq War in 2003. This process intensified after the election of pro-Western President Mikheil Saakashvili in 2004.

Georgia on the verge of joining NATO, but not yet subject to the organization’s collective defense agreement, Russia saw an opportunity to rein in its neighbor and demonstrate its military strength in the region.

Sakaashvili ordered his troops to capture the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. Russia swiftly responded by moving its troops to the border and conducting air strikes on Georgian positions in South Ossetia as well as Abkhazia.

With the United States, Great Britain and NATO calling for a ceasefire, the conflict continued for five days, as Russia quickly took control of Tskhinvali and rolled its tanks and troops through Ossetia into Georgia, stopping only about 30 miles from Tbilisi, the Georgian capital.

It's none of Putin's business what international organizations sovereign countries want to join. It is 14 years after the Russian invasion, and Georgia still isn't a NATO member, so it really wasn't a tangible reason to invade.

If Russia was capable of leading potent, dynamic, and desirable international organizations, they should be able to sell their soft power and relationships to other countries.

The transcript of Putin's speech yesterday and his
hubris to compare himself to Peter the Great make his imperialist agenda clear. He explicitly made the point that certain lands belong to Russia even if the rest of Europe disagrees. That has nothing to do with NATO, and everything to do with Russia's 300 year old desire to be an imperial power.

 

[Lightbringer]

So you believe powerful countries should take territory from weaker countries by military force. Very Medieval of you.

The Ukraine isn't a real country. Never has been. Half the land there is historically Polish and the other half is historically Russian. There may be some Mongolian in there too but that's from a long time ago.

 

[Cypress]

The Ukraine isn't a real country. Never has been. Half the land there is historically Polish and the other half is historically Russian. There may be some Mongolian in there too but that's from a long time ago.

The land you live on was historically Cherokee, Iroquois, Seminole, or Navajo.

The Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth hasn't existed for 600 years, and the Imperial Russian empire ended with the tsars. The Bolsheviks and the USSR recognized Ukraine as a culturally distinct republic within the Union of soviet socialist republics. The USSR demanded Ukraine be given it's own seat at the United Nations.

Republicans may not believe in self-determination, but most of the rest of humanity does.

 

[Walt]

Russia to annex Kherson Oblast

For reference, Kherson is 82% Ukrainian speaking, and from what we saw in other areas, probably the majority of the 14% Russian speakers are strongly against being invaded. I doubt there is any government that can stop the resistance in Kherson, the people there do not want the Russians. It will probably end one of three ways:
1) The Russian Army may leave. They have been pushed back in other places, or they may just decide it is not worth it.
2) The Russians may force the people out of Kherson.
3) The Russians may kill the people of Kherson (that was a million people, but is probably now only half as many).

There is no option where the people of Kherson accept they are newly forced to be Russian. The Ukrainian Government cannot force them to. The Russian Government cannot force them to. The US Government cannot force them to.

 

[Walt]

how about blocking fresh water to the Crimean peninsula by Ukraine? I underlined it. that's a humanitarian crime

The Ukrainians refused to send free water to the Russians who invaded them. There is no requirement that they give free water to anyone. It is not a humanitarian crime.

Why aren't you sending water around the world to people who do not want to pay for it?

 

[Walt]

Because the Russians have the largest nuclear arsenal.

We and the Russians promised Ukraine's safety if they gave up their nuclear arsenal. They did, and it now seems like a huge mistake.

North Korea has nuclear weapons, and has been avoided. Iraq did not have nuclear weapons and was invaded. We promised Ukraine's independence if they gave up their nuclear weapons, and they were invaded.

Iran offered to give up their research for trade, and then trump rescinded that. Looking at the rest of the world, it is hard to say it is anything but a huge mistake for a country to give up their nuclear weapons. Iran is going nuclear, and that is just what is going to happen.

 

[Walt]

Plus there was the damning of the canal by Ukraine - and this is a crime against civilians.

Souls get damned, not canals. Rivers get damed, not canals. Canals just do not get filled with water. Their natural state is without water.

 

[moon]

We promised Ukraine's independence if they gave up their nuclear weapons, and they were invaded.

' We ' organized a coup, overthrew their elected government and promised NATO membership. Joining NATO does NOT signify independence.

 

[Walt]

Really ? How come we don't give a hoot about the Roma ?

Romania (with Romanians) are a NATO nation, so Russia invading it would bring us into war. Roma(Romani/Gypsies) do not have a specific country, and are associated with many different countries. I care about their rights, and if they live in a NATO nation, we are required to defend them (along with their non-Romani neighbors) from invasion.

 

[moon]

Romania (with Romanians) are a NATO nation, so Russia invading it would bring us into war. Roma(Romani/Gypsies) do not have a specific country, and are associated with many different countries. I care about their rights, and if they live in a NATO nation, we are required to defend them (along with their non-Romani neighbors) from invasion.

And if they live in Russia ?

 

[Walt]

And if they live in Russia ?

The persecution of the Romani in Russia has been unfortunate, but I really do not have much say over internal Russian policy.

 

[anatta]

The Ukrainians refused to send free water to the Russians who invaded them. There is no requirement that they give free water to anyone. It is not a humanitarian crime.

Why aren't you sending water around the world to people who do not want to pay for it?

daming a river that is the source of fresh water downstream is a humanitarian crime,and there was no "invasion" of Crimea since you are nitpicking

 

[anatta]

Souls get damned, not canals. Rivers get damed, not canals. Canals just do not get filled with water. Their natural state is without water.

it's called the North Crimean Canal, and it was damed up until Russia blew up the dam you nimrod
WTF is your problem?