Obama has trusted Oil way too much...!

"then they get elected and prove the Republicans right"

That's a bit of a stretch, since Republicans usually say they'll turn America into a communist utopia and befriend terrorists....
No, you said earlier they say, "government doesn't work"... then get elected, etc...

And no, again, they say they'll attempt to do those things (they do), that they'll fail (they do), and that they'll prove government still doesn't work (they do).

It isn't a stretch. We're watching it real time.
 
your gay and retarded. But the great thing about this country is a dumbass like you can still get rich chasing ambulances.
The gov can't take over the response, they don't have the first clue how to stop this thing.
And BP does? I watched the guy from BP today on the morning news talking with his thumb up his ass telling the world how he is "very disappointed" that they couldn't keep the oil from the Louisiana Coast, the oil that they said at first would never get to the coast, except for some few small tar balls. BP has fucked this up from the get go. Big oil has proved they couldn't find their ass with both hands in their back pocket and your home is going to pay the price.
 
And BP does? I watched the guy from BP today on the morning news talking with his thumb up his ass telling the world how he is "very disappointed" that they couldn't keep the oil from the Louisiana Coast, the oil that they said at first would never get to the coast, except for some few small tar balls. BP has fucked this up from the get go. Big oil has proved they couldn't find their ass with both hands in their back pocket and your home is going to pay the price.
Do you think the government can buy the equipment to get the job done in time to be effective in stopping that flow?

Now, stopping the oil from reaching shore is something the government can help with, but actually clogging up that flow? No.

Tell me what agency of the government has even the slightest idea of how to stop that gusher.

Here is what I have been saying in this thread:

1. Stopping the flow itself, that's BP's job.
2. The government needs to step in with help from whatever source they can find to start mitigating the damage the oil will cause.
3. The government needs to charge 100% of that to BP after it is over.
4. BP needs to stop trying to do all things all the time and focus on stopping that flow and creating a larger problem.

Oh, and that they've been ineffective with the booms because they've been mostly placed to appear to be doing something rather than for effect.
 
Oh please.

Pointing out who writes the laws (regulations) that you believe would magically be in effect when Ds took office isn't hack, it is very real.

Congress doesn't write regulations. Executive branch agencies do.

1. Congress was in control of their funding and activities, they have an oversight role even when Bush is President.

What good is it to fund an agency that doesn't even bother to do its job? Did you read the article? Accepting bribes, gifts and negotiating job offers while "regulating." Having regulated bodies submit reports in pencil and having the regulators copy over it in pen? Having meth-head "inspectors" performing their job while high on meth? And that doesn't even get into the cocaine and sex parties.

You can blame Congress for lax oversight if you want, but what about the people in charge of the organization in the first instance?

2. Obama is, however, in control of making those people do their jobs and in a year and a half is far more responsible for what happened there than Bush was for what happened in his first year....

Yes, Obama is ultimately responsible for what happens on his watch, but pretending that a president can magically revamp an entire regulatory agency in a quick period is unrealistic. Moreover, blaming Obama for not cleaning up after Bush while pretending that Congress is to blame and Bush is not like you are doing is horseshit. And, I would add, to the extent that we are reaping what was sowed years ago through lax regulation, blaming Obama for the shitty seeds that Bush plated is pure hackery.


You attempt to hold only Rs responsible for their mess. This is Obama's mess, his administration. The buck doesn't stop with Bush this time. His appointees were in charge. They have been ineffective.

I'm not at all claiming that only Rs are responsible. Conversely, you are claiming only Obama is responsible which is garbage. I'm more than willing to have an honest discussion about this stuff, but to pretend that the history begins on January 20, 2009 is bull.
 
This dude writes for the SF Chronicle on capitalism and is a left-leaning guy which is why this article surprised me. At the link you can see some of his other work. For all of you steep in the various government agencies responsibilities have at it.


The first and foremost lie by BP coddled, encouraged and used by the Obama administration is the phrase, OIL SPILL.

The Gulf Coast catastrophe is NOT AN OIL SPILL. Stop using the phrase. The phrase might roll off the tongue better but it is not a spill. Let's say Old Faithful is hot water spill.

In an LA Times investigation, a dozen experts with knowledge of offshore drilling, including one who has seen BP investigation documents, agreed that, deep in the well, cement, or pipes encased by cement, had to have failed first.

Several have specifically fingered BP's design for that cement job, which used relatively little cement and relied on an unusual configuration that made it harder to test for imperfections, they said.

Cementing is supposed to form an impenetrable seal to keep the hot, gassy oil from surging up the well. But a single flaw in that seal, perhaps a crack the size of a human hair, can be enough to unleash a volcano of petroleum.

The Gulf Coast disaster is an unmitigated man made deep water volcanic vent of crude oil and gas.

A spill is what you call your kid's accidental tipping of a glass of milk. Maybe it's you accidentally dropping the synthetic oil can as you're changing your car's oil. Those are oil spills. Oil spill is a public relations term that now has successfully permeated the public's collective psyche.

The Gulf Coast disaster is a dangerous uncontrolled vent from an underwater volcano of crude oil and gas. It's time to call it what it is.

PRESIDENT OBAMA'S 10 FAILURES ON BP'S MAN MADE VOLCANIC VENT OF CRUDE OIL


1) Insisting this is BP's problem is not a solution. It is an abject failure to pass the the command and control to BP. These are US waters, US land and US wildlife and American livelihoods at stake. The surrender of command and control to BP is a failure of leadership.

Mr. President, you're in-charge. It's not British Petroleum. BP is a UK company. BP is responsible to its share holders. They are not responsible to the American people or the United States government. If this becomes too much for them to bear, they will declare bankruptcy and walk away and the US taxpayer will end up paying. They could care less about you.

James Carville said:

"I think they actually believe that BP has some kind of a good motivation here," he said. "They're naive! BP is trying to save money, save everything they can... They won't tell us anything, and oddly enough, the government seems to be going along with it! Somebody has got to, like shake them and say, 'These people don't wish you well! They're going to take you down!'"

2) The US has failed to build any deep sea exploration exploration subs or robotic systems. We build nuclear bombs, space ships and super computers and atom smashers yet we have failed miserably in deep sea research. How is possible that we have failed in our collective imaginations? We know we have hundreds, perhaps thousands of shallow and deep water rigs yet the nation has no capability to respond.

Our coast guard and navy is left emasculated helplessly watching a disaster unfold with no equipment, training or response capability. What good is a trident missile for this tragedy? What value does an aircraft carrier have in this emergency? None, nada, zero, zilch --- If that is not a total failure of imagination, it is abject dereliction.

3) NOAA has failed miserably. The NOAA flagship research vessel was in Africa and was not summoned to the gulf till a week ago. This is an abject dereliction of duty on the part of the NOAA administrator. Shame on her. As a marine biologist and oceanographer herself, she should have known better.

Of the 19 research vessels owned by NOAA, 5 are in the Gulf of Mexico and available for work on the spill, NOAA admnistrator Dr. Jane Lubchenco said, counting a newly commissioned boat. The flagship of the NOAA fleet, the research vessel Ronald H. Brown, was off the coast of Africa when the spill occurred on April 20, and according to NOAA tracking logs, it was not redirected until about May 11, three weeks after the disaster began. It is sailing toward the gulf.

Why did it take till May 11 to call back the Ronald Brown from the coast of Africa?

In a New York Times article, Rick Steiner, a marine biologist and a veteran of the 1989 Exxon Valdez disaster, said NOAA had been derelict in analyzing conditions beneath the sea.

Mr. Steiner said the likelihood of extensive undersea plumes of oil droplets should have been anticipated from the moment the spill began, given that such an effect from deepwater blowouts had been predicted in the scientific literature for more than a decade, and confirmed in a test off the coast of Norway. An extensive sampling program to map and characterize those plumes should have been put in place from the first days of the spill, he said.

"A vast ecosystem is being exposed to contaminants right now, and nobody's watching it," Mr. Steiner said. "That seems to me like a catastrophic failure on the part of NOAA."

Sylvia Earle, a famed oceanographer, said Wednesday on Capitol Hill that the government has failed to make public a single test result on water from the deep ocean nor has NOAA done anything to investigate the underwater oil plumes in the gulf. Scientists say the administration has been reluctant to demand an accurate analysis of how many gallons of oil are flowing into the sea from the gushing oil well.

4) Failure to ask the Japanese, French, Chinese and Russians for assistance. Only these four nations have deep sea submarine and robotic systems that can work in depth of one mile or greater.

5) Failure to demand full and public information from BP from day one. To this day, information about the spill has been obfuscated. With all the super computing power in the hands of BP, knowledge of the pipe's circumference, knowing flow rate, BP still lies beyond anyone's imagination refusing to budge from the 5,000 barrel a day pronouncements.
Watch live streaming video from wkrg_oil_spill at livestream.com

Included in this failure is the most basic of information --- How much oil is spewing from this underwater deep sea crude oil volcano?

In a McClatchy News article by Marisa Taylor, Renee Schoof and Erika Bolstad, they explain the nuance of this utter failure.

BP, and the Obama administration, have said they don't want to take the measurements for fear of interfering with efforts to stop the leaks. That decision, however, runs counter to BP's own regional plan for dealing with offshore leaks. "In the event of a significant release of oil," the 583-page plan says on Page 2, "an accurate estimation of the spill's total volume . . . is essential in providing preliminary data to plan and initiate cleanup operations."

Legal experts said that not having a credible official estimate of the leak's size provides another benefit for BP: The amount of oil spilled is certain to be key evidence in the court battles that are likely to result from the disaster. The size of the Exxon Valdez spill in Alaska, for example, was a significant factor that the jury considered when it assessed damages against Exxon.

"If they put off measuring, then it's going to be a battle of dueling experts after the fact trying to extrapolate how much spilled after it has all sunk or has been carried away," said Lloyd Benton Miller, one of the lead plaintiffs' lawyers in the Exxon Valdez spill litigation. "The ability to measure how much oil was released will be impossible."

"It's always a bottom-line issue," said Marilyn Heiman, a former Clinton administration Interior Department official who now heads the Arctic Program for the Pew Environment Group. "Any company wouldn't have an interest in having this kind of measurement if they can help it."

6) Failure to have any response capability of any sort. It is evident that BP. the US Government or the entire world wide oil industry is clueless on how to respond to this catastrophe.

First it was the failure of the blowout preventor at all levels.

Second, it was the failure of the robotic systems to even turn a screw.

Third, it was the 4-story containment dome that was buoyed up by frozen methane.

Fourth, it was the top hat.

Fifth was the "straw" pipe inserted into the larger volcanic pipe. Sure it worked somehow then BP sends out a press release that they were suctioning 5,000 barrels. Well duh! BP said earlier that the crude oil volcano was only 1,000 barrels then 5,000 barrels then they suck in 5,000 barrels... opsss... caught in a lie! Another press release. We only capture 2,000 barrels!

Sixth, the junk shot... could we be more ludicrous?

So we go on... the top kill, loss circulation material, two relief wells and on and on...

Clearly there was no plan. There was never a plan and I assert that it is criminal negligence not to have a plan.

Now Mr. President, what do we do if the surface oil slicks and underwater oil plumes hit the gulf loop current and contaminate Florida's 130 desalination plants? Many of these plants are deep well brackish water plants that mostly draw seawater. What is the plan to stop the destruction of a major source of drinking water for Florida? Desalination plants like Florida's Acciona probably cannot process Corexit mixed with light Louisiana crude.

Florida has some gas fired power plants that use a special type of wet cooling systems that use sea water. These power plants will probably shut down if the oil and dispersants reach the power plants' cooling systems. What's the plan for that Mr. President?

7) Failure to clean house at the corrupt Minerals Management Service where cocaine, lurid sex and cash favors were a way of life.

Despite the discoveries of the most egregious behavior, there was no top-to-bottom change in the MMS which continued to issue permits even after the BP volcanic vent disaster.

8) Allowing BP to control all access to the location and data including the use of U.S. coast guard to restrict media access. On BP's orders, the US Coast Guard is refusing to allow press boats to come close to the spill site to document the disaster.

This is another lie. White House press secretary Robert Gibbs was even more emphatic in supporting this PR line. "There's nothing that we think can and should be done that isn't being done. Nothing."

How about allowing reporters and independent scientists access to the spill site and scientific information instead of a cloak and dagger secret war room which only BP controls?

After four weeks of misinformation and lack of cooperation, the Obama Administration has finally demanded daily reports of all efforts to deal with the disaster, as well as all information related to the disaster, from British Petroleum.

9) Allowing BP to ignore US EPA orders and still using hundreds of thousands of gallons of their old stock of highly toxic dispersant, known to be deadly to marine life, when they had a far less toxic brand available. What's the point of an EPA that oil companies can ignore?

Allowing the use of toxic dispersants that make the ocean look a little better on the surface -- where most people are -- but make circumstances a lot worse under the surface, where most of the life in the ocean actually is.

If you read the instructions for Corexit, the dispersant approved by the EPA to make the ocean look better warn that it is an eye and skin irritant, is harmful by inhalation, in contact with skin and if swallowed, and may cause injury to red blood cells, kidney or the liver. People are warned not to take Corexit internally, but the fish, turtles, sea birds, copepods and jellies have no choice. They are awash in a lethal brew of oil and butoxyethanol."

BP has used a little more than 670,000 gallons of Corexit, an unprecedented application and for a duration and at depths also without precedent.

BP PLC said Saturday it wants to keep using a contentious chemical dispersant to fight the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, despite orders from federal regulators to use something less toxic.

The chemical dispersant at issue, Corexit 9500, is "the best option for subsea application," BP Chief Operating Officer Doug Suttles said in a letter to the Environmental Protection Agency. Tests showed Corexit was among the most effective agents at dispersing the oil, Suttles said.

The EPA raised concerns about the agent Thursday, saying the long-term effects remain unknown. The letter ordered BP to identify an alternative and start using it within three days of its approval by regulators.

"Because of its use in unprecedented volumes and because much is unknown about the underwater use of dispersants, EPA wants to ensure BP is using the least toxic product authorized for use," the agency has said.

ADD GRAVE INSULT TO INJURY

BP is now threatening to sue to block the EPA from publishing its written response to the order to stop using Corexit, citing commercial confidentiality. The US EPA is therefore "evaluating all legal options" to force them to reconsider, "so Americans can get a full picture".

10) Finally, refusing to force and lead congress to increase the liability limits for oil companies from $75 million to an unlimited amount. Instead President Obama and Senate majority leader Reid allowed Senators Murkowski and Shelby to filibuster raising the liability limits for oil companies.

Can't you ask the Democratic party to bring in the cots and let the Republicans filibuster and defend BP? It is nothing but legislative cowardice and capitulation.

President Obama, these are your administration's failures. This is not George W. Bush's Katrina. It is uniquely your administration's failure. The buck stops at your desk.

Come on... take charge!



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/index?
 
Congress doesn't write regulations. Executive branch agencies do.

However, they do write laws (which can also regulate). What do you think the tax and scheme legislation is for?

What good is it to fund an agency that doesn't even bother to do its job? Did you read the article? Accepting bribes, gifts and negotiating job offers while "regulating." Having regulated bodies submit reports in pencil and having the regulators copy over it in pen? Having meth-head "inspectors" performing their job while high on meth? And that doesn't even get into the cocaine and sex parties.

Right, what good is it? Maybe they can give out a few awards too!

You can blame Congress for lax oversight if you want, but what about the people in charge of the organization in the first instance?

You mean the appointees, the Interior Secretary (Ken Salazar D, CO), and his hirees? Yeah, what about those people?

Yes, Obama is ultimately responsible for what happens on his watch, but pretending that a president can magically revamp an entire regulatory agency in a quick period is unrealistic. Moreover, blaming Obama for not cleaning up after Bush while pretending that Congress is to blame and Bush is not like you are doing is horseshit. And, I would add, to the extent that we are reaping what was sowed years ago through lax regulation, blaming Obama for the shitty seeds that Bush plated is pure hackery.
BS.

Your side "pretended" that Bush somehow had that same magical capacity in an even shorter period. In this case, the Interior Secretary (appointed by Obama) had that responsibility and more than a year to make any changes at all, instead they got awards, if he wasn't doing his job then it is the fault of the people who hired him.

I'm not at all claiming that only Rs are responsible. Conversely, you are claiming only Obama is responsible which is garbage. I'm more than willing to have an honest discussion about this stuff, but to pretend that the history begins on January 20, 2009 is bull.
Yet you are. You are attempting to excuse all Obama appointees, their employees they hired, and his Administration from all responsibility. You do it even with a silly oversimplified ditty about how "Republicans say Government doesn't work"...

Seriously, you've been aching to blame Bush for this, but this time it wasn't him.

I point out that Congress was owned by the Ds who say that "Government Works For All Things"... 1/3 of the government, and the one responsible for oversight. I point this out because you pretend that only Bush is responsible. This time the buck stops at Obama, his appointees, those they hired...
 
And BP does? I watched the guy from BP today on the morning news talking with his thumb up his ass telling the world how he is "very disappointed" that they couldn't keep the oil from the Louisiana Coast, the oil that they said at first would never get to the coast, except for some few small tar balls. BP has fucked this up from the get go. Big oil has proved they couldn't find their ass with both hands in their back pocket and your home is going to pay the price.

I think a think you should stand by your convictions and stop buying gas.
 
However, they do write laws (which can also regulate). What do you think the tax and scheme legislation is for?



Right, what good is it? Maybe they can give out a few awards too!



You mean the appointees, the Interior Secretary (Ken Salazar D, CO), and his hirees? Yeah, what about those people?


BS.

Your side "pretended" that Bush somehow had that same magical capacity in an even shorter period. In this case, the Interior Secretary (appointed by Obama) had that responsibility and more than a year to make any changes at all, instead they got awards, if he wasn't doing his job then it is the fault of the people who hired him.


Yet you are. You are attempting to excuse all Obama appointees, their employees they hired, and his Administration from all responsibility. You do it even with a silly oversimplified ditty about how "Republicans say Government doesn't work"...

Seriously, you've been aching to blame Bush for this, but this time it wasn't him.

I point out that Congress was owned by the Ds who say that "Government Works For All Things"... 1/3 of the government, and the one responsible for oversight. I point this out because you pretend that only Bush is responsible. This time the buck stops at Obama, his appointees, those they hired...


As I said, I'm more that willing to have an honest discussion about who is responsible for what. You're position is that the Democrats are always to blame. That's pretty stupid, but it isn't surprising.

The hilarity of it all is that you like to pretend that you are some sort of independent thinker and not a party-line kinda guy. Frankly, I can't think of too many hardcore Republicans that would go to the lengths you are going to to defend Bush. It makes me laugh, laugh, laugh.
 
As I said, I'm more that willing to have an honest discussion about who is responsible for what. You're position is that the Democrats are always to blame. That's pretty stupid, but it isn't surprising.

The hilarity of it all is that you like to pretend that you are some sort of independent thinker and not a party-line kinda guy. Frankly, I can't think of too many hardcore Republicans that would go to the lengths you are going to to defend Bush. It makes me laugh, laugh, laugh.
It is not.

You posted, hacktackularly, this little ditty while you tried to blame everything on Bush:

"As P.J. O'rourke said, the Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it. "

I simply pointed out that Bush didn't have the complete control you pretend and that blame solely Bush is unwarranted.

You took that to mean I think all blame is Obama's (no, I believe the responsibility is Obama's and he's screwing it up).

You are trying to put up another straw man, and then call me a "hack"...

It is enough to realize that rather than working to fix ANY of the problems you posted in that post they were instead giving out awards for the awesome safety of the very platform that failed.

The Democrats got elected, and proved that big government sucks just as much when a D is beside the name.
 
I think a think you should stand by your convictions and stop buying gas.
You have the gall to call other people GEDers? This is the single stupidest response in this thread. You are saying that if we want people to be safe and figure out a plan for a very foreseeable catastrophe then we should stop buying gas? I guess if we want car companies to make safer cars we should stop driving. If we want doctors to be careful when they provide medical care we should just stop going to the doctor. This was a clusterfuck from the beginning. BP lied about how much oil was coming out of the well, they lied about how much oil they were recovering and they lied about the oil coming ashore. And this is not the only energy industry to ignore and even flaunt safety. The mine in Kentucky is now under investigation for hiding safety problems, lying to the federal goverment and threatening miners if they reported safety problems. Safety means less profits, not NO profits. If you want to ignore safety in the name of greater bottom lines then when you fuck up, it should cost you so much that it ends you. The Kentucky mine accident, if proven to be the fault of the company should cost the company everything. The fed can auction everything off to another mining company and throw the managers of the old company in jail. This is NOT an issue of being safe OR harvesting oil. YOu can do one with the other. In 1970 NASA figured out how to bring a spaceship back to earth when it was horribly damaged. They did not figure it out ahead of time, they did it on the fly. If they can do that, fucking BP can figure this shit out.
 
They could hire more help from other companies, and use fema more.

people are starting not to like you damo because you're dishonestly hacktacualar and disingenuous.

Here you made the choice that your privatization agenda is more important than actual reality, even if means defending obama. You're such a transparent shill.

Gee, here's an idea.
Instead of getting yoiur hackels up; why don't you post which company and the name of the person in that company.
 
soc, I hope BP did fuck up and is found negligent thereby taking the rest of us out of you morons sights. I want them to do it safer, but your the ignorant one. Accidents do happen. This WON'T be the last one, BP has 1,000 engineers and geologist way smarter than both of us. Hopefully thier top kill works today.
 
Gee, here's an idea.
Instead of getting yoiur hackels up; why don't you post which company and the name of the person in that company.

My rolodex is not as extensive as the federal government.

This is fucked up logic. If I can't give a name, hiring more people must be impossible for the federal government.

Why don't you go blow some more cops.
 
soc, I hope BP did fuck up and is found negligent thereby taking the rest of us out of you morons sights. I want them to do it safer, but your the ignorant one. Accidents do happen. This WON'T be the last one, BP has 1,000 engineers and geologist way smarter than both of us. Hopefully thier top kill works today.


Accidents happen. And people and corporations that negligently (or worse) cause "accidents" to happen should be held to account. Where the consequences of accidents can be a total fucking nightmare, like shitloads of oil constantly gushing into the Gulf of Mexico for over a month, maybe we should make sure that if an accident happens someone knows what to do to fix it before drilling starts instead of "hoping" that someone can get this figured out eventually.
 
Accidents happen. And people and corporations that negligently (or worse) cause "accidents" to happen should be held to account. Where the consequences of accidents can be a total fucking nightmare, like shitloads of oil constantly gushing into the Gulf of Mexico for over a month, maybe we should make sure that if an accident happens someone knows what to do to fix it before drilling starts instead of "hoping" that someone can get this figured out eventually.

Nice drama queen rant. Given that, this is not the first and won't be the last oil put in water by the millions of gallons. There are like 40 examples of greater spills.
 
Nice drama queen rant. Given that, this is not the first and won't be the last oil put in water by the millions of gallons. There are like 40 examples of greater spills.


Right, it's a drama queen rant to expect oil companies to figure out what to do when things go wrong before they go wrong instead of after shit has hit the fan. Christ its been over a month and they still can't get the thing capped.

And can you list the 40 examples of greater spills? How many in the past 20 years?
 
Right, it's a drama queen rant to expect oil companies to figure out what to do when things go wrong before they go wrong instead of after shit has hit the fan. Christ its been over a month and they still can't get the thing capped.

And can you list the 40 examples of greater spills? How many in the past 20 years?

list have been all over the net since this one, Again I hope that they are found negligent which will make the industry look better by comparison.
But I can not at this point say it couldn't happen to any of us.

That turbo-lib bullshit is easy to spew when you don't have any clue what's involved. It's over a mile down, the only tougher engineering is in NASA which is why gov caint do it.
 
ask your expert boom friend. LOFL
:rolleyes:

I have, I sent an e-mail but he hasn't answered yet, it's likely he's busy actually doing things that matter.

I thought the bookkeeper might have an idea, he did say he was an expert, that 25 years of doing books made him the most astounding and perfect expert ever. I figure he might even hear somebody nearby say something he could pass on. But no... I forgot he just does figures and isn't even near the people who might know something about it.

You are such a childlike man, Topper.
 
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