Reality check on electric cars

Poor Richard Saunders said:
Poor Into the Night. He thinks that OSHA required paperwork is chemistry.
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LIF. Grow up.
Poor Richard Saunders said:
The funny thing is I don't recall when the Japan, South Korea, Mexico or Canada became part of the US. The chips are imported and a tariff would increase the cost for the chips made outside the US.
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Tariffs are not place on all countries on all products, Poorboy. Compositional error fallacy.
 
Kafka said:
It's not a great solution. This is related to what I worked on about 25 years ago in my second postdoc. Solid storage for H2 via metal hydrides is limited and small for the weight of the metal hydride. We were looking at other solid storage solutions and they didn't work out.
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Hydrogen is not a metal. Hydride is not a chemical nor a metal. Stop pretending to be a chemist.
Kafka said:
No I'm not. Nothing of the sort. I understand that nuclear is probably our best solution to decarbonizing our energy infrastructure.
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Carbon isn't an infrastructure. It is a fuel.
 
Kafka said:
Yeah. The US still has a lot of active fabs
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Very little.
Kafka said:
so we already have some infrastructure and DURING THE HORRIBLE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION we got the CHIPS act which will encourage MORE domestic chip production.
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It doesn't.
Kafka said:
But right now so much is made outside the US that this weird "tariffs on everything" approach will do NOTHING but increase prices for everything.
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There is no 'tariffs on everything'. You are hallucinating again.
Kafka said:
I can't wait to see the MAGA voters tell me how paying EVEN MORE THAN THEY ARE NOW is a "good" thing.
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MAGA isn't a person.
Tariffs are not inflation.
 
ADreamOfLiberty said:
Any gas at 10,000 PSI will do that. Add in the potential explosion and it's too much.

I don't think any 10,000 PSI pressures should be in everyday equipment, at least not until we have some of those super materials like carbon nanotube tensile reinforcement.
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Yeah. Hydrogen and carbon under 10,000psi. THAT's gonna work! :rofl2: 💥
ADreamOfLiberty said:
It's obviously a lot safer with a metal tank where the alloy doesn't do brittle failure, then failures manifest as holes instead of explosions. BUT metal is too heavy and does a poor job containing protons so last I checked they were using composite tanks for hyperpressure hydrogen storage on vehicles.
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Hydrogen is stored in metal tanks as a matter of routine, Pretender.
ADreamOfLiberty said:
I never said it wouldn't work, I'm saying that in the long term on the global scale solving the problem of mass producing propane is the cheaper and safer solution.
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No, gasoline is.
ADreamOfLiberty said:
Obviously if liquid hydrogen were to work it would require a self-contained refrigeration system combined with some very effective insulation techniques (double mirror vacuum layer and such).
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Do you have any idea of how much energy it takes to liquify hydrogen??
ADreamOfLiberty said:
Again, didn't say it was easy; but making 10,000 PSI safe isn't easy either. It's a question of what difficult effort ends in a safe scalable solution.
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Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to compress a gas to 10,000 psi??
ADreamOfLiberty said:
i.e. when I said "propane" I meant burning propane in some kind of combustion engine be it pistons or a turbine.
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Energy density is too low. Better to use gasoline or kerosene or diesel oil.
ADreamOfLiberty said:
However when we're talking about storing hydrogen it would be more efficient to use that in a fuel cell rather than burning it?
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Energy density if too low. Better to use gasoline or kerosene or diesel oil.
ADreamOfLiberty said:
I did mention space :)
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Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to get to space?? What are you going to mine when you get there??
ADreamOfLiberty said:
Once the ball starts rolling it wouldn't be that much different from mining anywhere else. In forty years the most menial human labor outside of service industries will be piloting a drone. The actual staff on site could be very small; like a hundred people for an operation that supplies the whole planet.
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Space is not a planet.
 
ADreamOfLiberty said:
Well that is unfortunate. I thought fuel cells are more efficient than practical combustion engine can be right?
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Don't get me wrong. They are a great thing. I have no problem with a FC car but it is hampered by storage or generation of the H2 fuel.

ADreamOfLiberty said:
If so that would be a pro in the "store hydrogen" column, something to balance out the challanges.
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I haven't been active in the field for a very long time. I haven't heard any major breakthroughs. I'm sure carbon is still being investigated and maybe more exotic metal hydrides. I wish I knew.

ADreamOfLiberty said:
I mean when the concentration is low it sometimes makes sense not to try to find the maximum concentration of that mineral but to look for the intersection of several useful minerals in a formation.
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Ahhh, sorry. Yeah. I know what you are saying. You are 100% correct. These minerals while having some degree of concentration over the usual sort of "background levels" are still a lot lower "grade" that a big ol' 6' thick seam of coal.


ADreamOfLiberty said:
The lower concentration output is "a byproduct". Or you could consider the higher concentration a byproduct but that sounds wrong. Point is you get both at the same time and that saves a lot effort and environmental damage.
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We don't have a great history of mining anything cleanly.

ADreamOfLiberty said:
It isn't and it worrisome that you think it's absurd without thinking about it.
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Antarctic ecosystems, food webs and food chains - Discovering Antarctica

Discover the Antarctic food web and ecosystems - plankton, krill, blue whales, leopard seals, penguins and killer whales, who is eating who?
discoveringantarctica.org.uk discoveringantarctica.org.uk

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www.sciencedirect.com

ADreamOfLiberty said:
You're not one of those Gaia worshiper types are you?
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No. Just have a doctorate in geology.
 
Kafka said:
We don't have a great history of mining anything cleanly.
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Going through less rock has got to be cleaner on average. I have a feeling a lot of useful stuff gets dumped in a big pile because the energy costs of further refining are prohibitive. For uranium that's chicken out of the egg, if we were allowed to build some serious fission reactors the uranium would pay for its own refinement from tailings that are being discarded now.


Kafka said:

Antarctic ecosystems, food webs and food chains - Discovering Antarctica

Discover the Antarctic food web and ecosystems - plankton, krill, blue whales, leopard seals, penguins and killer whales, who is eating who?
discoveringantarctica.org.uk discoveringantarctica.org.uk
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That's the sea around the continent. That's like saying an open pit mine in one of the isolated rocky mountain watersheds is going to be a problem for San Francisco Bay.


Kafka said:

Loading…

www.sciencedirect.com
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Quoting from the abstract:

in the entire continental Antarctic the vegetation is desert-like, composed of scattered mosses, lichens, and terrestrial algae. Exposed surfaces of crystalline rocks harbor “endolithic microbial life,” and a few species of invertebrates dwell on favorably exposed soil and under rocks. The ice Plateau is as nearly abiotic or sterile as any area on the earth's surface.
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It's dead, I knew it was dead; it's still weird that you were sure it wasn't dead.

Kafka said:
No. Just have a doctorate in geology.
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Geology below five meter depth doesn't have an ecosystem.
 
Kafka said:
Wish for our sake you understood economics better. But it's too late now. Enjoy paying a fuck ton more for goods now. You thought you were shocked by the high prices before? You ain't seen nuthin' yet.
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You are a moron.

After energy prices go down, the prices of all other things "downstream" will likewise decrease (at least strictly from an energy standpoint... there are other factors that also affect pricing).

And no, the tariffs will not cause high prices. That's a leftist lie. I've already lived through a Trump term in which Trump implemented tariffs, and Obama's third term even kept a number of those tariffs in place. Prices didn't skyrocket until Obama's third term (e.g. the Inflation Production Act).
 
gfm7175 said:
You are a moron.

After energy prices go down, the prices of all other things "downstream" will likewise decrease (at least strictly from an energy standpoint... there are other factors that also affect pricing).

And no, the tariffs will not cause high prices. That's a leftist lie. I've already lived through a Trump term in which Trump implemented tariffs, and Obama's third term even kept a number of those tariffs in place. Prices didn't skyrocket until Obama's third term (e.g. the Inflation Production Act).
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You're HILARIOUS! Please please please be willing to post when all your stupidity is shown to be stupidity! I want to hear you whine about getting what you asked for.

I really do.

Idiot doesn't know who pays tariffs. LOLOLOLOL. How dumb are you? You aren't legally allowed to operate a motor vehicle are you?
 
Kafka said:
You're HILARIOUS! Please please please be willing to post when all your stupidity is shown to be stupidity! I want to hear you whine about getting what you asked for.

I really do.

Idiot doesn't know who pays tariffs. LOLOLOLOL. How dumb are you? You aren't legally allowed to operate a motor vehicle are you?
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Insults aside, you and I have both already lived through Trump's first term. You and I have both already seen that Trump's tariffs (and the downstream effects of them) did NOT raise the cost of goods. In fact, the cost of imported goods actually DECREASED, "despite the tariffs".
 
gfm7175 said:
Insults aside, you and I have both already lived through Trump's first term. You and I have both already seen that Trump's tariffs (and the downstream effects of them) did NOT raise the cost of goods. In fact, the cost of imported goods actually DECREASED, "despite the tariffs".
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I paid thousands in tariffs trying to import things from CCP. I became quite familiar with those tariffs.

They excepted a lot of the every day consumer stuff.

I had to import things because there are things US companies simply aren't building in the US.

We are down a very deep hole of manufacturing delinquency and it will hurt to climb back up no matter how it is done.
 
ADreamOfLiberty said:
I paid thousands in tariffs trying to import things from CCP. I became quite familiar with those tariffs.

They excepted a lot of the every day consumer stuff.

I had to import things because there are things US companies simply aren't building in the US.

We are down a very deep hole of manufacturing delinquency and it will hurt to climb back up no matter how it is done.
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The one who innovates is the one who does the manufacturing. It is more than money the corporations threw away.
 
Nordberg said:
The one who innovates is the one who does the manufacturing. It is more than money the corporations threw away.
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I think US corporations bribe the government to prevent competition and I think Chinese companies bribe the government to let them work.

That's why they build stuff and that's why we buy from them (through our corrupt corporations rebranding).
 
gfm7175 said:
Insults aside, you and I have both already lived through Trump's first term. You and I have both already seen that Trump's tariffs (and the downstream effects of them) did NOT raise the cost of goods. In fact, the cost of imported goods actually DECREASED, "despite the tariffs".
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Trump has promised MUCH LARGER tariffs ACROSS THE BOARD this time around.

Scale is everything in this game.

But you won't understand that until it happens. Thanks for dragging the rest of us down with you. Enjoy it!
 
ADreamOfLiberty said:
I paid thousands in tariffs trying to import things from CCP. I became quite familiar with those tariffs.

They excepted a lot of the every day consumer stuff.

I had to import things because there are things US companies simply aren't building in the US.

We are down a very deep hole of manufacturing delinquency and it will hurt to climb back up no matter how it is done.
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This fear is unwarranted. It is no hurt to manufacture stuff for ourselves. It's a benefit...both to the consumers of the product manufactured, and to the people that make it. It's a benefit to economies in general too, as people have more money to spend. Even casinos do better.

Now, about the 'everyday consumer stuff'...

Clothing and textiles are already manufactured domestically. That will only improve if less is imported from China.
Electronics is almost all imported, but not from China...from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Mexico, Canada, and Germany. China is basically good for mechanicals (cases, PC boards, etc) and some linear (like power supplies). That said, China DOES produce a wide variety of discrete LEDs.

Displays come from Japan and South Korea.

Software for these devices comes primarily from the United States.

Sundry items like pencils, paper, pens, common drugs, food, pottery, utensils, and even many tools, are domestically produced.
Sure, if you look you might find a tool or office supply of Chinese make, but most of that stuff is actually made in the United States.

Now let's look at our favorite American consumer item, the car.

Electronic components come from Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, mostly. Instrumentation these days is primarily Japanese.
Even the connectors are US designs, or a common type such a Hiroshsi (Japanese) design. Molex is made in the US and Canada.

The gasoline it uses is made in the US.

The tires may come from a variety of nations such as Japan or Canada, but are usually of US make.
Component rebuilds (for replacement of alternators, air conditioner pumps, etc) are US done.

Windshield replacements are from US (mostly) and Japanese (rarely) sources.


Guns are made in the United States and some parts of Europe. Ammunition for those guns is of US make.

Cement, asphalt, gravel, fill dirt, concrete, mortar, etc. used in the US are of US origin.
Wood framing for houses is primarily from US forests and lumber mills.
Wallboard is of US make. Gypsum and paper are both from US sources.

Most food is from the US. We literally feed the world.

Most of the fertilizers, pesticides, dyes, and other chemistry is of US origin.

Even fireworks are made in a wide variety of nations, including China, Canada, Mexico, the UK, Italy, Japan, and of course the US. Personally, I think some the prettiest shells are of US make! Japan and Italy are great at it too! You can't beat the Mexicans for rockets and girandolas (a type of flying saucer). Mexicans LOVE their fireworks!

So the old argument that 'China makes everything' is a bunch of hooey.

There ARE other sources of import from much more friendly nations, and the more we make here in the US, the better!
We USED to be the Number 1 electronics manufacturer in the world! That is, until we started exporting those jobs overseas! Now the US has to catch up to manufacturing surface mount components cheap, and producing circuit boards cheap once again.

Trump's austerity program in government (thanks, Elon!) will do a lot at muzzling the Dept of Education, the EPA, the CPSC, and other governmental agencies that do NOTHING for the environment and force jobs overseas due to overreach and overregulation.

Yes, we CAN have an electronics industry WITHOUT destroying the environment, and we should have that industry back on our shores.
 
Nordberg said:
The one who innovates is the one who does the manufacturing. It is more than money the corporations threw away.
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So you think a family sitting around on a dirt floor making dust masks that you wore to 'prevent Covid' is innovating???
Have you seen some of these factories in China???
 
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