Reality check on electric cars

It's the fact that no one wants a tank of compressed hydrogen on their car. Simple as that.
You say it like the #1 rational reason to not want a tank of hypercompressed hydrogen in your car is not the fact that the hydrogen is under enormous pressure and if the tank rupturtes the expanding explosive ball of gas could rip half the car apart.

Obviously long steady design refinement solves a lot of problems, and maybe it could be made 'safe enough' but that huge pressure also severely limits how much hydrogen can be carried. Personally it's such a big issue that I would investigate whether active cryo storage of hydrogen and oxygen (like a rocket) wouldn't be easier to perfect.

Liquid hydrogen isn't the safest thing in the world either but the volume of the tank would be so much smaller for so much more hydrogen. You would actually be getting a serious amount of energy in exchange for all the control systems and risk management. I imagine if the insulation is good enough that you might be able to keep the temperature low using solar maintainers on the car's skin and maybe even have a small electrolysis reactor so the vehicle could slowly refuel itself given rainwater.

Not a major selling feature but I really like the idea of problems that solve themselves like that. A lot of business models have cars sitting around for a considerable amount of time. Car rental agencies, parking in airports while you go somewhere, people with multiple vehicles.


That's why solid state storage like metal hydrides was being investigated. Or the material that I worked on briefly in my second postdoc.

Sounds good, so long as it doesn't have the same kind of inevitable chemical decay that batteries have always had. It wouldn't work for planes, volume efficiency but not mass efficiency.

If the only use of kerosene/gasoline/propane is planes that would work for a long time.

The "climate hysteria" you mentioned is kind of a big deal.
Not to me, that's why I called it hysteria.

But if we are OK with ignoring the really bad stuff why not just power cars with coal?
We are, that's where a lot of the power people are using to charge cars is coming from.

Coal isn't better than gasoline if you don't care about carbon dioxide and if you do care about carbon dioxide then coal is still not better than gasoline, it just shifts the burning to the power plant.

If you're saying that someone who doesn't care about carbon would prefer coal over nuclear, no; because coal is a finite resource in a way that nuclear fission is not. If we wanted to 50x power production we would end up tearing up national parks worth of ground we would be facing a constant increase in prices as the easier to access veins were used up.

That is not hysteria, that is history. Mining has always worked like this, it's why the world is littered with dead mining towns. I know uranium mining was touched on earlier, but the fact is uranium is a relatively rare element and it's best seen as a byproduct of metal mining. Also, very unlike coal, the refine form of the energy material is tiny compared to the material that had to be sifted through to find it. If we had a giant uranium mine in ant artica for example (where there was basically no ecosystem to disrupt), and that mine produced enough for the entire world at 50x current, we could still carry that energy on a single ship per year (we would't because of eggs and baskets but we could).

For the same reason, if for some sad reason we can't make fusion work in the long term, we could feasibly mine fissile material from other rocky bodies in the system. The enormous energy density of the refined product making it profitable.

The vein shape for metal oxides is also (potentially) considerably different than coal, not absolutely sure on this but I get the impression that coal deposits are wide and thin, like layers of sediment; which is closish to what they were.

Open pit mining is the only simple way to mine coal, but underground honeycomb mining might work for metal oxides.

All that said if it were up to me I would clear the way for both and let the most efficient win, something tells me fission can scale in a way coal cannot.
 
The terminology (and the law) changed over a decade ago.
The terminology is not the law, Poorboy. There is no God or government controlling the terminology.
I guess you and Into the Night aren't up on present technology or safety.
Products all had an SDS when Trump was in office. None had an MSDS.
False dichotomy fallacy. MSDS and SDS are synonyms.
OSHA does not have any authority to order terminology in chemistry.
False authority fallacy.
 
Nope. Not only on imports. Most things manufactured in America use imported goods in the production process. Do you think those Japanese parts in cars built in Tennessee aren't imported? Computers and everything else using electronics are built with imported chips and that includes GM and Ford vehicles.
Those chips generally come from Japan and South Korea. Some come from Taiwan, some come from Mexico or Canada.
That is before we get to the food price increases as the US will lose many of the workers in the food industry from farm labor, to meat processing plants to restaurants. American milk and steak are going to go up in price when there is no one there to do the work.
People ARE there to do the work, Poorboy. Illegal aliens imported by Biden and Kamala and Mayorkas are not working in the fields. Further, illegal aliens that ARE working in the fields are criminals, and should be deported.
 
So we're gonna do things YOUR way for a while now, eh? Gonna make decisions based on general ignorance? OK. We'll see how that works.
The SDTC won't, and the SDTC is the one facing a major blackout because of 'green energy'.
You aren't going to fare so well because you don't know enough about any of these topics to understand any implications.
DON'T TRY TO BLAME YOUR PROBLEM ON ANYBODY ELSE, TWILIGHT!
But the rest of us will. I hope we have the ability to sit by and watch you stumble through it without any help. It would be hilarious to watch.
You are describing yourself.
 
Good luck in finding things in America that don't contain imported parts.
Easy. Food. Pottery. Metals. Tires. Memory. Software. Paint. Concrete. Glass. Lumber products including dimensional lumber, laminates, and plywood. Wallboard. Sundries (including the bottles and cans they are in). Soda. Guns. Ammunition. Knives and scissors. Clothing and textiles. Marine and aircraft equipment and parts. Plastics. Oil products including gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel, etc.

...shall I go on?
Agreed! But that's expensive which is why most of the Trump voters won't/can't buy it. Remember: people who voted for Trump have had such a horribly hard time the last 4 years (worse than the Great Depression!) that asking them to pay MORE for stuff isn't what they voted for.
The Great Depression saw an inflation of 120%. It was caused by Democrats.

The economic depression since Biden was installed saw an inflation of 37% (so far). It was also caused by Democrats.
 
There is no way I can read through a mile long thread that should have been closed at 1,000 posts; to start another one therefore I will make this simple statement from my point of view:


All electric vehicles are worthless for long trips and cold weather driving, should be limited to the city region and has a serious catastrophic fire problem to worry about which you can lose your house in the process if you use the driveway or worse the garage and a terrible resale value to lean on.


Hybrid cars are a far better choice for those who like the superior MPG and still be able to have long trips, know this from experience and that a brother of mine has been driving one since the 1990's, Toyota Prius.


Buying EV's as a way to "fight climate change" is a total waste since the climate hasn't changed as the CO2 warm forcing power is negligible at the 430-ppm level and the slow warming trend is actually great for the planet.
 
The pressures involved in storing a relevant amount of H₂ are prohibitive.
Not really. Hydrogen is stored at up to 3000psi in portable tanks all the time. Of course, that's a much lower energy density then gasoline.
No that's pretty straight forward. Electrolysis.
The problem with electrolysis is that it will require much MORE energy to generate the hydrogen then simply charging an EV to go the same distance. Nuthin' comes for free, you know. It requires energy to conduct electrolysis.
-------------------------- On swapable batteries and charging ---------------

The copper for charging is an insignificant cost compared to the cost of underground gasoline tanks.
Copper does not generate energy. The problem is there is not enough power generating capacity and the wiring that IS there is insufficient to carry it even if there was. Sticking a tank in the ground is pretty easy. All you need is a digger (and the tank, of course!).
The fair comparison would be between all electric stations vs all gasoline stations.
A reversal fallacy. People will buy the cars they want. The stations are the result of the kind of cars people want to buy, not the other way around.
Stations can also buffer energy in large simple capacitors
Not practical to build a capacitor big enough. Ever wonder why they use batteries in EVs instead of capacitors?
(don't really exist because there is no use case now, but layers of steel and glass that can be as big and heavy as you want so long as they're cheap and steel and glass can be very cheap if energy is cheap).
Glass and steel are not energy.
Of course a station does both will be more expensive than either.

The charging speed is dictated by the cell chemistry and construction as I'm sure you know.
This part is correct.
Fast charging is parallel charging of many small cells.
This part is incorrect. Fast charging is the same configuration of cells. Cell configuration is not changed when fast charging an EV.
The only way to make it faster is to subdivide the batteries into even more shallow charging depth cells and that makes them more expensive and has other problems.
Still won't work. The internal resistance of single cells is the problem. Configuration makes no difference.
I don't see any practical battery (under conventional definitions of battery) being fully rechargeable in under five minutes. Five minutes is what it would take for people to stop complaining.
This part is true.
It has been suggested that car batteries can be entirely swapped at a station, and I don't see a real problem with that. It's really just a software problem.
Nope. It's a mechanical problem. Battery packs are HEAVY. They have coolant lines in them that must be drained to conduct a swap, and new coolant must be installed and all air bubbles removed (requiring vacuum filling methods and a lot of time). Further, as T.A. Gardner pointed out, battery packs are not standardized. They never will be.

How do you value the battery? You need a reliable estimate of its remaining charge life not only so you can cycle the dying ones out but because you need to pay the owner if you leave them with a battery that is closer to death.
You are forgetting that battery packs STILL NEED TO BE CHARGED, and the requirements for the grid do not go away just because you are swapping them out to be recharged.
Robotics is already good enough to handle swapping, you'd just drive over the right slot and it would do it below the car where you won't be in the way while you go get a coffee.
No robot is powerful enough. To build such a specialized robot would be horrifically expensive.
Daylight mentioned this and I agree with him. The lack of standardization is not a physical constant.
It is. You can't even standardize body styles or car engines or tires.
We're obviously talking about what ought to be rather than what already is. If we need some variation in battery capacity we just use smaller packs and integer math. Compact takes 2, SUV takes 3, fully loaded pickup takes 4; that kind of thing.
Obviously you see a way to make a profit here. Go into business and do it. Good luck!
The amount people pay for transportation annually is staggering. They'll switch they will pay for it, if you make it worth it. It will be worth it if electricity is made dirt cheap compared to gasoline... which is realistic in only one scenario: mass nuclear power, fission or fusion.
Nuclear power is not a renewable form of energy. Oil and natural gas ARE.
That's just an engineering hurdle, one with clear solutions. Standard layout ports, self-cleaning with compressed air/vacuum, tapered guidance, quick connect style mating. Foolproof for the life of the battery and automatic mechanisms can't screw it up.
There is no 'quick connect' fitting available due the coolant lines and the coolant in them that must be replaced.
A bigger issue would be a system in the car and station to assure both parties that the coolant isn't contaminated, but that would go along with the rest of the contract enforcement about energy and exchange costs. Again, just engineering.
I guess you never learned hydraulics. It's why it's not practical.
---------------

Norway has an enormous availability of hydroelectric power as well as an incredible level of infrastructure
Norway has very little infrastructure.
and "one highway" syndrome (lots of passes and tunnels focus traffic allowing them to get excellent charging station coverage with relatively few stations). In those ways adopting EVs is far less burdensome than it is for most nations.
So you are discussing mandates for EVs again. Fascism doesn't work.
 
Hybrid cars are a far better choice for those who like the superior MPG and still be able to have long trips, know this from experience and that a brother of mine has been driving one since the 1990's, Toyota Prius.
Hard to argue against "I want it all, I want it now".

On paper they are more complex than they need to be and that should mean they are harder to fix and maintain but in practice the way the ICE can use constant gearing and switch between perfectly tuned RPMs means that component lasts very well.

Electric motors are famously reliable and they have been on hybrids and EVs too.

I'm not super familiar with the fast charge batteries hybrids or more importantly plugin hybrids use but all car batteries have been overperforming expectations, which is a point against your previous condemnation of EVs too.

I think it's the computer controlled charge, discharge, cycles with temperature awareness. The kinds of experience people normally have with batteries is basically with no or basic chemistry management. Blast it with voltage, draw as much as you want, and replace it when it dies.


I would be interested in a modular system where you could swap in battery packs, but also with the same form factor ICE generator units. So you could load all batteries for normal chores and known commutes, or you could do 2 batteries and one ICE for for the "plugin hybrid" experience, finally you can use a combination of ICE modules and fuel tank modules to get a vehicle with full hydrocarbon power and range but that smooth reliable electric motor experience.
 
You say it like the #1 rational reason to not want a tank of hypercompressed hydrogen in your car is not the fact that the hydrogen is under enormous pressure and if the tank rupturtes the expanding explosive ball of gas could rip half the car apart.
You can only pressurize a tank so far. It is not possible to compress enough hydrogen into a tank in a car that would even come close to approaching the energy density of gasoline.
Obviously long steady design refinement solves a lot of problems, and maybe it could be made 'safe enough' but that huge pressure also severely limits how much hydrogen can be carried. Personally it's such a big issue that I would investigate whether active cryo storage of hydrogen and oxygen (like a rocket) wouldn't be easier to perfect.
Liquid fueled rockets do not store hydrogen in cryo. They are fueled just before launch. The tank is VERY temporary.
Liquid hydrogen isn't the safest thing in the world either but the volume of the tank would be so much smaller for so much more hydrogen. You would actually be getting a serious amount of energy in exchange for all the control systems and risk management. I imagine if the insulation is good enough that you might be able to keep the temperature low using solar maintainers on the car's skin and maybe even have a small electrolysis reactor so the vehicle could slowly refuel itself given rainwater.
TANSTAAFL. You cannot create energy out of nothing. See the 1st law of thermodynamics.
Sounds good, so long as it doesn't have the same kind of inevitable chemical decay that batteries have always had. It wouldn't work for planes, volume efficiency but not mass efficiency.
Batteries are too heavy for EV aircraft. They have to be very lightweight to carry a useful payload. The only electric aircraft are demonstration models that carry no useful payload.
If the only use of kerosene/gasoline/propane is planes that would work for a long time.
Gasoline has the highest energy density (by volume) of any fuel.
Kerosene has the highest energy density (by weight) of any fuel.

Propane has low energy density. It's useful for BBQs and such, but not as a fuel for aircraft. It is only marginally practical in cars or buses.
We are, that's where a lot of the power people are using to charge cars is coming from.
Most power plants in the United States are natural gas.
Natural gas, like oil, is a renewable fuel.
Coal isn't better than gasoline if you don't care about carbon dioxide and if you do care about carbon dioxide then coal is still not better than gasoline, it just shifts the burning to the power plant.
There is no need to worry about carbon dioxide. This gas is absolutely essential for life to exist on Earth. No gas or vapor has the capability to warm the Earth.
If you're saying that someone who doesn't care about carbon would prefer coal over nuclear, no; because coal is a finite resource in a way that nuclear fission is not.
Nuclear power is a nonrenewable form of energy. Coal is plentiful and cheap...much cheaper than a nuclear reactor and it's fuel.
If we wanted to 50x power production we would end up tearing up national parks worth of ground we would be facing a constant increase in prices as the easier to access veins were used up.
No need. Coal is plentiful and cheap.
That is not hysteria, that is history. Mining has always worked like this, it's why the world is littered with dead mining towns. I know uranium mining was touched on earlier, but the fact is uranium is a relatively rare element and it's best seen as a byproduct of metal mining. Also, very unlike coal, the refine form of the energy material is tiny compared to the material that had to be sifted through to find it. If we had a giant uranium mine in ant artica for example (where there was basically no ecosystem to disrupt), and that mine produced enough for the entire world at 50x current, we could still carry that energy on a single ship per year (we would't because of eggs and baskets but we could).

For the same reason, if for some sad reason we can't make fusion work in the long term, we could feasibly mine fissile material from other rocky bodies in the system. The enormous energy density of the refined product making it profitable.
Nuclear fuel needs a lot of expensive refining from the ore, dude. The same equipment can also be used to create weapons grade material. Most nations want to restrict access to that equipment for serious military reasons.
The vein shape for metal oxides is also (potentially) considerably different than coal, not absolutely sure on this but I get the impression that coal deposits are wide and thin, like layers of sediment; which is closish to what they were.

Open pit mining is the only simple way to mine coal, but underground honeycomb mining might work for metal oxides.
Coal is mined using a wide variety of methods, including channel mining, honeycomb mining, and open pit mining.
All that said if it were up to me I would clear the way for both and let the most efficient win, something tells me fission can scale in a way coal cannot.
Nope. Fission requires expensive to refine nuclear fuel, and is non-renewable.
 
Hard to argue against "I want it all, I want it now".

On paper they are more complex than they need to be and that should mean they are harder to fix and maintain but in practice the way the ICE can use constant gearing and switch between perfectly tuned RPMs means that component lasts very well.
Maintenance and repair of gasoline and diesel engines can be done most anywhere with fairly simple tools.
Electric motors are famously reliable and they have been on hybrids and EVs too.
It's the battery, not the motor, that's the problem.
I'm not super familiar with the fast charge batteries hybrids or more importantly plugin hybrids use but all car batteries have been overperforming expectations, which is a point against your previous condemnation of EVs too.
Hybrids are gasoline cars.
I think it's the computer controlled charge, discharge, cycles with temperature awareness. The kinds of experience people normally have with batteries is basically with no or basic chemistry management. Blast it with voltage, draw as much as you want, and replace it when it dies.
Electricity is not chemistry. Redefinition fallacy.
I would be interested in a modular system where you could swap in battery packs,
Not practical for the reasons I and others have already given.
but also with the same form factor ICE generator units.
There is no single form factor for generators, nor would you want one.
So you could load all batteries for normal chores and known commutes, or you could do 2 batteries and one ICE for for the "plugin hybrid" experience, finally you can use a combination of ICE modules and fuel tank modules to get a vehicle with full hydrocarbon power and range but that smooth reliable electric motor experience.
The power plant of a car cannot be made modular. It IS the car, other than the shell around it called the body.
 
Not really. Hydrogen is stored at up to 3000psi in portable tanks all the time. Of course, that's a much lower energy density then gasoline.
They're trying to use 10,000 psi.

The problem with electrolysis is that it will require much MORE energy to generate the hydrogen then simply charging an EV to go the same distance. Nuthin' comes for free, you know. It requires energy to conduct electrolysis.
The assumption is the grid has very cheap energy and we're just trying to keep cars as useful as they are now.

I'd like to see your reasoning for that though. Is there a fundamental thermodynamic reason you think electrolysis is less efficient than chemical battery reactions? In a very real sense electrolysis is the precise inverse of the hydrogen fuel cell.


Copper does not generate energy.
Stations don't generate gasoline.

But copper does conduct electricity and stations do store gasoline. The capacity to do either costs money, I'm saying the copper isn't more expensive than the tank (or at least they are in the same ballpark).


The problem is there is not enough power generating capacity and the wiring that IS there is insufficient to carry it even if there was.
Well we'll have to get more power if we want to run cars off the grid won't we.


Sticking a tank in the ground is pretty easy. All you need is a digger (and the tank, of course!).
Well let's just gloss over every detail: sticking a wire in the ground is pretty easy. All you need is a digger (and the wire, of course!).


People will buy the cars they want.
The car they want is often the one with the greatest features, speed, and range at the lowest price. The fuel costs are part of the price. If the the grid electricity was dirt cheap (and I know it's not right now) then the cost of owning a car powered from the grid (whatever the intermediate storage) would make people buy those cars over gasoline cars.


Not practical to build a capacitor big enough.
Show me the math.

Ever wonder why they use batteries in EVs instead of capacitors?
The mass and volume energy density of capacitors is much worse than batteries, at least at reasonable voltages. So much worse that the car would be useless.

Fixed installations don't have mass limitations and they don't have practical volume limitations (they could make the whole concrete pad a capacitor two meters thick). Remember they don't need to buffer energy for a week, a day, or even an hour. Just need to buffer for ratio of the median time between EV fast charges and the time for the power grid to deliver the energy.

Power companies already do all sorts of things to spread out power, big capacitors like that would have other uses in DC settings; but again this is assuming that bulk materials become much cheaper and they would given dirt cheap gird power.

Glass and steel are not energy.
but energy is the primary factor in their cost.

Energy for smelting, energy for transportation of ore, energy for sorting, energy for moving the final product. Contrast this with something like strawberries (which I think must be picked by hand). The price for strawberries goes down a bit if energy is dirt cheap but there is a floor represented by the cost factors which don't scale with energy (the crop pickers).

If we had enough energy we could build out of glass bricks rather than cement CMU. There is no shortage of silicon dioxide lying around.

This part is incorrect. Fast charging is the same configuration of cells. Cell configuration is not changed when fast charging an EV.
Still won't work. The internal resistance of single cells is the problem. Configuration makes no difference.
The number and properties of the cells are determined at design time. They can't be changed. All you can do is wire them up in series or parallel banks.

I'm saying that within a temperature range there is no such thing as "fast charging" a single cell, there is an ideal voltage range and that will charge at certain current and thus power. All you can do is make each cell shallow so that current charges the cell quickly. A fast charging battery is a battery with a bunch of fast charging cells. Fast charging cells have shallow charge capacities. Thus you need more cells to hold the same energy.

If you were to try to make a lead acid battery fast charging instead of 6 cells you would maybe do 24 cells where each cell had a quarter of the plates. You'd have groups of four of these shallow cells wired in parallel and then those six groups would be in series to give you 12V with the same charge. When you go to charge it the groups of four can be charged 2.2 + whatever V, but the current would be four times greater than a 6 cell battery. Thus it would charge four times faster.

I'm saying that kind of subdivision (at design time) has its limits. You need more and more cell walls which take up more volume and weight, meanwhile they add thermal insulation and require more fine wire connections.


Nope. It's a mechanical problem. Battery packs are HEAVY.
Well there goes that idea. The species that build the pyramids without access to bronze has never been able to handle heavy objects before.


They have coolant lines in them that must be drained to conduct a swap
Why in the world would you need to drain the coolant to swap?

and new coolant must be installed and all air bubbles removed (requiring vacuum filling methods and a lot of time).
No, we don't need new coolant and we can handle bubbles using standard air seperator. You talk like liquid cooling loops haven't been used since the 1930s.

Even in the worst case scenario that the cooling loop must be absolutely sealed you can just make a heat exchanger part of the interface plate. i.e. the battery dumps the heat to the plate and the car cools the plate.


Further, as T.A. Gardner pointed out, battery packs are not standardized. They never will be.
Looks at AA battery, looks back to screen, looks back to battery.

I'm getting a strong "man will never fly" vibe.

You are forgetting that battery packs STILL NEED TO BE CHARGED, and the requirements for the grid do not go away just because you are swapping them out to be recharged.
Answered above.

No robot is powerful enough.

To build such a specialized robot would be horrifically expensive.
Everything is horrifically expensive when you're building only one. It would be a simple machine compared to a car, and every gas station requires a fuel delivery truck to keep it stocked.

"A fuel delivery truck would be horrifically expensive" didn't seem to stop that system from working.

It is. You can't even standardize body styles or car engines or tires.
Of course you could, people just value the specialization enough to warrant tire places carrying fifty different sizes. If you had to change a tire every hundred miles I can promise you they would start to converge on two or three main tire sizes just like they converged to two or three fuel mixtures.

Obviously you see a way to make a profit here. Go into business and do it. Good luck!
Thanks, let me know when the government let's us produce energy again. Oh and maybe a hundred and fifty million USD investment? For a the prototype. Thanks.

Nuclear power is not a renewable form of energy. Oil and natural gas ARE.
You think its being produced faster than we can use it?

In that case I really do have to agree with the carbon-o-phobes. We can't just keep digging up carbon forever. Maybe five hundred years, but then it really will start to get stale.

I guess you never learned hydraulics. It's why it's not practical.

Norway has very little infrastructure.
You haven't a clue what you're talking about on this one. If there is a rock in the ocean they will build a soccer field on it and then build a bridge and a tunnel to get there. Then they'll run fiberoptic internet so the players can have public wifi at half-time.
 
Gasoline has the highest energy density (by volume) of any fuel.
Kerosene has the highest energy density (by weight) of any fuel.

Propane has low energy density. It's useful for BBQs and such, but not as a fuel for aircraft. It is only marginally practical in cars or buses.
Wikipedia disagrees

Propane: 49.6 MJ/kg
Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/kg
Kerosene: 43 MJ/kg
 
That's a partial oxidizer right?

If we really do start splitting water on an industrial scale O2 would be pretty cheap. Diatomic oxygen - the original oxidizer
Yes. Nitro contains it's own oxygen so the engine needs less air for combustion.
Model airplanes, cars, etc run Nitro. I had a couple when I was a kid. The COX .049 engine was my first in a dune buggy.
 
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