A CASE FOR REPARATIONS!

[T. A. Gardner]

Time to bump this thread and see if white people really stand with or really understand where Blacks are coming from.

Will the talk of reparations go to far for them?

It does for me. There is no precedent in all of history of a group being compensated for the wrongs committed against their ancestors, not those currently living. Once you open that can of worms, how far back do you go and what's the limit on that being done?

The argument for them is also a logical fallacy called the Historian's fallacy. It imposes today's social and moral norms on those long dead. Worse, it then says the remedy for that is to punish those descendants chosen as the fall guys having to pay for those sins even though they didn't commit any of them. North Korea, singularly, --and note it is the most repressive and repugnant, not to mention Leftist, regime on the planet currently--practices generational punishment for crimes, mostly political, against its people. That is, you commit a crime. You are convicted and sent to a labor camp. Your family is sent to the labor camp. Your relatives are sent to the labor camp. They did nothing, but happen to be related to you by blood.

Well, reparations for Blacks, Native Americans, etc., is the exact same thing, repackaged in a new wrapper.

 

[TTQ64]

It does for me. There is no precedent in all of history of a group being compensated for the wrongs committed against their ancestors, not those currently living. Once you open that can of worms, how far back do you go and what's the limit on that being done?

The argument for them is also a logical fallacy called the Historian's fallacy. It imposes today's social and moral norms on those long dead. Worse, it then says the remedy for that is to punish those descendants chosen as the fall guys having to pay for those sins even though they didn't commit any of them. North Korea, singularly, --and note it is the most repressive and repugnant, not to mention Leftist, regime on the planet currently--practices generational punishment for crimes, mostly political, against its people. That is, you commit a crime. You are convicted and sent to a labor camp. Your family is sent to the labor camp. Your relatives are sent to the labor camp. They did nothing, but happen to be related to you by blood.

Well, reparations for Blacks, Native Americans, etc., is the exact same thing, repackaged in a new wrapper.

"There is no precedent in all of history of a group being compensated for the wrongs committed against their ancestors"

The Jews were compensates.......the rest of your post is right wing garbage.

Next........

 

[T. A. Gardner]

"There is no precedent in all of history of a group being compensated for the wrongs committed against their ancestors"

The Jews were compensates.......the rest of your post is right wing garbage.

Next........

The Jews held in concentration camps, like the Japanese were the ones that were actually there. Their descendants did not get any compensation. There was and is an ongoing effort to return artifacts like art, jewelry, and other physical items to descendants that were looted by the Nazis, but that is a different thing.

 

[TTQ64]

The Jews held in concentration camps, like the Japanese were the ones that were actually there. Their descendants did not get any compensation. There was and is an ongoing effort to return artifacts like art, jewelry, and other physical items to descendants that were looted by the Nazis, but that is a different thing.

Fuck off.

You know nothing about the history of this country.

Next....................

 

[StoneByStone]

Most Blacks are forgiving people.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Fuck off.

You know nothing about the history of this country.

Next....................

Your personal insult aside (for which I thank you), actually I know quite a bit about the history of this country, and likely exponentially more than you do, but do try to enlighten me to your position on what relevant history you think is germane to this thread.

 

[TTQ64]

No serious takers on this topic?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

No serious takers on this topic?

How can it be taken seriously when your responses to my serious ones are nothing but ad hominem and personal insults?

 

[Flash]

Why the fuck do I want to hear anything else?

Slavery in bumfuck Egypt isn't going to eliminate for profit prisons in the US.

Private prisons only account for 8% of prisoners in the U. S. The rest are government prisons

The U. S. is currently paying compensation to citizens of Guam who suffered from Japanese actions in WWII.

 

[Saudade]

Time to bump this thread and see if white people really stand with or really understand where Blacks are coming from.

Will the talk of reparations go to far for them?

Oh, I know where it's coming from -- tribalism. It's the same tactic any group goes for when they want something out of their neighbors.

Reparations are nothing more than handouts. Our welfare system is large enough already.

Reparations still might happen though, since so many on the left are willing to buy votes this way.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

For example, are the somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 British convicts "transported" to the American colonies as "servants" (aka Slaves in servitude for their crimes and sold to the highest bidder) going to be compensated?

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3614090

Now, these are Whites. Do they deserve reparations for their being enslaved?

How about Chinese slaves brought in before 1860 to California? Do they get reparations?

There were about 30,000 Irish brought to the Americas as slaves. How about them?

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

Yea, the people calling for reparations are just pandering to the mob. They have no sense of history and no intent to try and be fair about this. The knee-jerk Progressive Leftists in positions of political power who are historical illiterates just want to buy votes. The whole thing is an evil farce.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Oh, I know where it's coming from -- tribalism. It's the same tactic any group goes for when they want something out of their neighbors.

Reparations are nothing more than handouts. Our welfare system is large enough already.

Reparations still might happen though, since so many on the left are willing to buy votes this way.

Spoken like a true willfully ignorant conservative. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-am...history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/

Here's the thing: the current push for reparations boils down to an individual being able to provide valid documentation that (1) they are a descendant of a slave family (2) that said family were owned by a recognizable person(s) or business/corporation. Now if said business/corporation still exists in some form today, that would make the claim all the more solid with the aforementioned documentation.

This would GREATLY narrow the number of African Americans making claims for reparations. And of course, this would have to pass through Congress....and I highly doubt that will happen in my life time.

But hope springs eternal. Carry on.

 

[Taichiliberal]

For example, are the somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 British convicts "transported" to the American colonies as "servants" (aka Slaves in servitude for their crimes and sold to the highest bidder) going to be compensated?

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3614090

Now, these are Whites. Do they deserve reparations for their being enslaved?

How about Chinese slaves brought in before 1860 to California? Do they get reparations?

There were about 30,000 Irish brought to the Americas as slaves. How about them?

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

Yea, the people calling for reparations are just pandering to the mob. They have no sense of history and no intent to try and be fair about this. The knee-jerk Progressive Leftists in positions of political power who are historical illiterates just want to buy votes. The whole thing is an evil farce.

Your premise is extremely flawed, as you try to equate CRIMINALS with FREE INDIVIDUALS TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL. This is typical half-assed "logic" by reactionary right wing folk hell bent on 'stop the n***er'.

Your pointing to the Chinese is slightly off....for your education: https://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ce_timeline.html and the Chinese have a boat load of claims that require reparations, but NOT as slaves such as the Africans. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s

And though the Irish did catch hell in America, they were NOT slaves like the Africans. You might be confusing the prisoners in the British colonies. For your education: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/irish-slaves-early-america/

Yes, willfully or just honestly ignorance of what reparations is all about runs rampant in the Caucasian cabals of the GOP and "conservatives" in general. Faced with facts, they just cover their ears, parrot their mantras and become living examples of insipid stubbornness.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Your premise is extremely flawed, as you try to equate CRIMINALS with FREE INDIVIDUALS TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL. This is typical half-assed "logic" by reactionary right wing folk hell bent on 'stop the n***er'.

Slavery is slavery. You are splitting hairs. You don't know if the individuals in Africa were "free" or not any more than I do. In many cases they were prisoners of war among other things. Your knowledge of the history of slavery appears to be superficial and based on the sort of Progressive--if you'll pardon the term--white wash of history they usually do if it disagrees with their political agenda.

Your pointing to the Chinese is slightly off....for your education: https://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ce_timeline.html and the Chinese have a boat load of claims that require reparations, but NOT as slaves such as the Africans. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s

https://dominiquevillarreal.wordpress.com/婢女-the-chinese-slave-trade-in-san-francisco-california/

http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/735/files/civil war timeline intro.pdf

https://mhs.mt.gov/Portals/11/education/docs/CirGuides/Zhu Gold Rush.pdf

Seems quite a few experts disagree with you on that.

And though the Irish did catch hell in America, they were NOT slaves like the Africans. You might be confusing the prisoners in the British colonies. For your education: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/irish-slaves-early-america/

Snopes is a poor choice both because they are often wrong, and they definitely have a political slant to their "fact checking."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...re-indentured-servants-not-slaves/3198590001/

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/othe...o-arrive-in-the-american-colonies/ar-BB15FTOM

Indentured servitude is simply slavery by another name. It sometimes had an expiration date, but often didn't. It may or may not have been voluntary much as the Royal Navy often used press gangs and impressment to put crew on ships. The same goes for criminals. Prisoners "transported" are little more than slaves as they were often put in the equivalent of labor camps to work for nothing and their sentences were often sketchy at best as to if or when it would be completed.

You simply ignore all the other injustices of the time--by modern standards (remember the historian's fallacy)--in favor of the ones you want to push for political goals. Fair and equal only applies it seems for the Left when they want it to. The rest of the time injustice is served to supposedly right another injustice.

Yes, willfully or just honestly ignorance of what reparations is all about runs rampant in the Caucasian cabals of the GOP and "conservatives" in general. Faced with facts, they just cover their ears, parrot their mantras and become living examples of insipid stubbornness.[/QUOTE]

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Your premise is extremely flawed, as you try to equate CRIMINALS with FREE INDIVIDUALS TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL. This is typical half-assed "logic" by reactionary right wing folk hell bent on 'stop the n***er'.

Slavery is slavery. You are splitting hairs. You don't know if the individuals in Africa were "free" or not any more than I do. In many cases they were prisoners of war among other things. Your knowledge of the history of slavery appears to be superficial and based on the sort of Progressive--if you'll pardon the term--white wash of history they usually do if it disagrees with their political agenda.

Your pointing to the Chinese is slightly off....for your education: https://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ce_timeline.html and the Chinese have a boat load of claims that require reparations, but NOT as slaves such as the Africans. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...ans-in-the-u-s

https://dominiquevillarreal.wordpress.com/婢女-the-chinese-slave-trade-in-san-francisco-california/

http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/735/files/civil war timeline intro.pdf

https://mhs.mt.gov/Portals/11/education/docs/CirGuides/Zhu Gold Rush.pdf

Seems quite a few experts disagree with you on that.

And though the Irish did catch hell in America, they were NOT slaves like the Africans. You might be confusing the prisoners in the British colonies. For your education: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

Snopes is a poor choice both because they are often wrong, and they definitely have a political slant to their "fact checking."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...re-indentured-servants-not-slaves/3198590001/

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/othe...o-arrive-in-the-american-colonies/ar-BB15FTOM

Indentured servitude is simply slavery by another name. It sometimes had an expiration date, but often didn't. It may or may not have been voluntary much as the Royal Navy often used press gangs and impressment to put crew on ships. The same goes for criminals. Prisoners "transported" are little more than slaves as they were often put in the equivalent of labor camps to work for nothing and their sentences were often sketchy at best as to if or when it would be completed.

You simply ignore all the other injustices of the time--by modern standards (remember the historian's fallacy)--in favor of the ones you want to push for political goals. Fair and equal only applies it seems for the Left when they want it to. The rest of the time injustice is served to supposedly right another injustice.

Yes, willfully or just honestly ignorance of what reparations is all about runs rampant in the Caucasian cabals of the GOP and "conservatives" in general. Faced with facts, they just cover their ears, parrot their mantras and become living examples of insipid stubbornness.

[/QUOTE]

1. Doubling down on your ignorance doesn't make it right. You equate what you readily admit were CRIMINALS to free Africans in the Slave trade to America. Any 8th grader can go to the library and provide you documented proof of Africans guilty of no crime against the Europeans who put them in the holds of ships to Europe and then later America. Your revisionist clap trap based wholly on supposition and conjecture is the usual mental flatulence from prejudiced people too stubborn to admit error.

2. Ahh, the right wing shuffle....let's try to infer a connection to bolster a erroneous claim. See, the flaw is that you link provides documentation of a SEX slave trade WITHIN THE UNITED STATES AFTER THE INFLUX OF CHINESE IMMIGRANTS WHO CAME BY THEIR OWN ACCORD, as my previous links showed, had you taken the time to read thoroughly. Your 2nd link does NOTHING to disprove or diminish what I previously posted, as it's essentially moot points. And again, you third link describes exploitation and racism of people who came here as immigrants of by their own free will. BIG FREAK'IN DIFFERENCE from being captured, shackled and thrown into the bowels of a ship, being told that you are a slave with no free will or choice. That you refuse to accept these matters of fact and history is of no consequence.

3. You didn't prove Snopes wrong. You just didn't read the content. I you had (along with your own links) you would have stopped babbling your revisionist drivel. Once again, you seem to think your personal revisionism and definitions supersede valid, historically documented facts. Hint: They don't.....from YOUR source material: Debunked: Irish people were not the first slaves to arrive in the American colonies ‘The Irish as slaves’ myth
This is not to say that the Irish were not cruelly mistreated by Cromwellian forces, but to acknowledge the substantial differences between chattel slavery and indentured servitude.https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/othe...o-arrive-in-the-american-colonies/ar-BB15FTOM

Fact check: The Irish were indentured servants, not slaves "An indenture implies two people have entered into a contract with each other but slavery is not a contract," Leslie Harris, a professor of history at Northwestern University, told the New York Times in 2017. "It is often about being a prisoner of war or being bought or sold bodily as part of a trade. That is a critical distinction," she continued. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...re-indentured-servants-not-slaves/3198590001/

Again, no one claims that the Irish didn't have it rough, but they sure as hell were not slaves nor suffered the horrors of slavery in America as a people .. they weren't sold as "breeding stock" for starters. Nor was there a change in the Constitution to recognize the Irish as human beings, let alone citizens. Nor has there had to be various amendments and Civil Rights Acts to reaffirm the rights of the Irish in America. But you just build on your blather, desperately clawing at historical facts with your bigoted myopia...like I previously stated, Yes, willfully or just honestly ignorance of what reparations is all about runs rampant in the Caucasian cabals of the GOP and "conservatives" in general. Faced with facts, they just cover their ears, parrot their mantras and become living examples of insipid stubbornness.

 

[Saudade]

Spoken like a true willfully ignorant conservative. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-am...history/the-truth-behind-40-acres-and-a-mule/

Here's the thing: the current push for reparations boils down to an individual being able to provide valid documentation that (1) they are a descendant of a slave family (2) that said family were owned by a recognizable person(s) or business/corporation. Now if said business/corporation still exists in some form today, that would make the claim all the more solid with the aforementioned documentation.

This would GREATLY narrow the number of African Americans making claims for reparations. And of course, this would have to pass through Congress....and I highly doubt that will happen in my life time.

But hope springs eternal. Carry on.

Too much time has passed for this to be relevant.

Now, if you want to make the argument that blacks still alive today who faced discrimination from Jim Crow should be given reparations, then I might be ok with that. We can at least say that some of the black population today is old enough to have dealt with that.

 

[Saudade]

Your premise is extremely flawed, as you try to equate CRIMINALS with FREE INDIVIDUALS TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL. This is typical half-assed "logic" by reactionary right wing folk hell bent on 'stop the n***er'.

Your pointing to the Chinese is slightly off....for your education: https://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ce_timeline.html and the Chinese have a boat load of claims that require reparations, but NOT as slaves such as the Africans. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s

And though the Irish did catch hell in America, they were NOT slaves like the Africans. You might be confusing the prisoners in the British colonies. For your education: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/irish-slaves-early-america/

Yes, willfully or just honestly ignorance of what reparations is all about runs rampant in the Caucasian cabals of the GOP and "conservatives" in general. Faced with facts, they just cover their ears, parrot their mantras and become living examples of insipid stubbornness.

If we're specifically talking about slaves brought from Africa and not ones born in the U.S., these particular slaves were prisoners of war. The only way that the Atlantic Slave Trade was able to persist is through African tribes that were willing to venture further inland into Africa to conquer and enslave neighboring tribes, and then they subsequently would sell these people to the Europeans and, later, to Americans. They also sold these people to the Arabs before the Europeans got involved.

So while Arabs, Europeans, and Americans can be blamed for financing the slave trade, Africans themselves enabled the capture of these people through tribal warfare.

 

[TTQ64]

Your premise is extremely flawed, as you try to equate CRIMINALS with FREE INDIVIDUALS TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL. This is typical half-assed "logic" by reactionary right wing folk hell bent on 'stop the n***er'.

Your pointing to the Chinese is slightly off....for your education: https://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ce_timeline.html and the Chinese have a boat load of claims that require reparations, but NOT as slaves such as the Africans. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s

And though the Irish did catch hell in America, they were NOT slaves like the Africans. You might be confusing the prisoners in the British colonies. For your education: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/irish-slaves-early-america/

Yes, willfully or just honestly ignorance of what reparations is all about runs rampant in the Caucasian cabals of the GOP and "conservatives" in general. Faced with facts, they just cover their ears, parrot their mantras and become living examples of insipid stubbornness.[/QUOTE]


Not just the GOP cables its' rampant in most white america. No one is asking for a check........which we rightfully deserve.......but for equality. Those things as I described can be accomplished relatively with little money.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Spoken like a true willfully ignorant conservative. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/wnet/african-ame...es-and-a-mule/

Here's the thing: the current push for reparations boils down to an individual being able to provide valid documentation that (1) they are a descendant of a slave family (2) that said family were owned by a recognizable person(s) or business/corporation. Now if said business/corporation still exists in some form today, that would make the claim all the more solid with the aforementioned documentation.

This would GREATLY narrow the number of African Americans making claims for reparations. And of course, this would have to pass through Congress....and I highly doubt that will happen in my life time. But hope springs eternal. Carry on.

Too much time has passed for this to be relevant.

Now, if you want to make the argument that blacks still alive today who faced discrimination from Jim Crow should be given reparations, then I might be ok with that. We can at least say that some of the black population today is old enough to have dealt with that.

Too much time has passed for this to be relevant. translation: Woko can no longer logically or factually sustain many of his/her assertions.

Once again, Woko displays insipid stubbornness...had he/she read my previous response carefully and comprehensively, he/she would have seen how reparations for the descendants of slaves could be verified and validated. Bottom line: if a present day corporation benefitted from it's former incarnation owning slaves, then why shouldn't the ancestors of those slaves? Fair is fair. But fairness is not at the basis of the knee jerk anti-reparations mentality. And the band played on.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Your premise is extremely flawed, as you try to equate CRIMINALS with FREE INDIVIDUALS TAKEN AGAINST THEIR WILL. This is typical half-assed "logic" by reactionary right wing folk hell bent on 'stop the n***er'.

Your pointing to the Chinese is slightly off....for your education: https://www.pbs.org/becomingamerican/ce_timeline.html and the Chinese have a boat load of claims that require reparations, but NOT as slaves such as the Africans. For your education: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/the-long-history-of-racism-against-asian-americans-in-the-u-s

And though the Irish did catch hell in America, they were NOT slaves like the Africans. You might be confusing the prisoners in the British colonies. For your education: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/irish-slaves-early-america/

Yes, willfully or just honestly ignorance of what reparations is all about runs rampant in the Caucasian cabals of the GOP and "conservatives" in general. Faced with facts, they just cover their ears, parrot their mantras and become living examples of insipid stubbornness.[/QUOTE]


Not just the GOP cables its' rampant in most white america. No one is asking for a check........which we rightfully deserve.......but for equality. Those things as I described can be accomplished relatively with little money.

Some want that check, because if they can prove their ancestry to slaves owned by a company that currently exists in some form today, then they should benefit from the company's largess just like the company. Fair is fair (if it can get through Congress, which I doubt).

this throws no shade on your proposals or ideas. Just making a point.