A natural explanation for morality

Now we get to the bottom of this. I am glad you were candid enough to share this, because it explains your vitriol toward your own spirituality. That is important to define, from a point of introspection, and very revealing of where your problem lies. It would be interesting to note what depravity you feel religion deprived you from, in your youthful formative years? Getting to party? Have sex? Do drugs? What was it? Have you experienced those things yet? Did they fulfill you or satisfy your discontent? Obviously not, you are here posting a thread about how God isn't real, aren't you?

Late teens / early twenties is the period in one's life that ultimately define the person. For me, this period of my life consisted of denial of physical evidence to the point of sheer lunacy. The manner in which I thought of myself, others (particularly the irreligious), and society in general was terribly distorted. I was completely detached from reality. And yes, I also missed out on sex and weed; these activities came much later in life than usual.

How did this make you an outcast and lunatic? Did you have no choice in the matter? Of your own personal spiritual convictions? Or of the societal pressures around you to conform in order to be accepted?

Social pressure. Even today, I won't admit to my family and older friends that I am an unbeliever.

It could be, that you have a need to be loved, that has not been fulfilled. You sought love through acceptance by being a lunatic and outcast, and you blame this on religion instead of yourself, and your weakness to embrace your own individual spirituality.

I am in a committed, healthy relationship. I'm proposing next month. Does that answer your question?

For the record, I am not a big fan of "organized religion" per say. I see the benefits, I accept that we will always have it.. but my spiritual beliefs are far too personal to be confined by some monolithic dogma. I have to do as my spiritual force guides me, and this doesn't have a thing to do with religious doctrine, for the most part. It's more about the positive flow of energy and aura around me at a given time. I am respectful of those who believe in Religion, and I basically consider what they call their "God" to be the same energy force of spiritual awareness I know. You see, I have come to realize, this 'entity', if we can call it that, is something too completely out of our realm of understanding, that we really have no way of defining or understanding it, particularly with man-made physical sciences. It's just too much for us as mortals to comprehend. So we 'invented' religion, as a means to 'kinda-sorta' get the gist of the idea. Being that we're PEOPLE and not perfect... we created religions that believe and do all sorts of things, because of their devoted conviction... that's not always bad and not always good.

That's great for you, but it does nothing for me. It is completely subjective. For all I know, you are lying about this "spiritual force"...or you've deluded yourself, as I once did. You expect me to provide "proof" for everything I say, and then you have the audacity to write the above. Unbelievable.
 
Late teens / early twenties is the period in one's life that ultimately define the person. For me, this period of my life consisted of denial of physical evidence to the point of sheer lunacy. The manner in which I thought of myself, others (particularly the irreligious), and society in general was terribly distorted. I was completely detached from reality. And yes, I also missed out on sex and weed; these activities came much later in life than usual.

Okay, but now that you have enjoyed all the indulgences you missed out on, has it fulfilled you? Has it provided contentment? Or do you feel like you are still searching for something that is missing? Are you really sure of your convictions, or do you feel the need to reinforce or validate them? You don't have to answer that here, just think about it to yourself. If you are honest with yourself, you know that what I am saying is true. You wouldn't be here posting this thread, if you were content and comfortable in what you believe.

Social pressure. Even today, I won't admit to my family and older friends that I am an unbeliever.

That's because you are not sure that what you believe is the truth. You are ashamed to admit this to your family/friends because you lack conviction in what you believe. This should serve as an indicator that you really do have some questions about what you've chosen to believe.

The "problem" you have is not religion. It is your deep-seated desire to be accepted by others. This can be caused by all kinds of things from your youth... did both of your parents work? Were they preoccupied with their own problems and not concerned with yours? Did your parents divorce? Again, no need to answer those questions, just think about them, and whether they may apply. Something has caused you to believe it is crucially important to be accepted by others, to the point of an obsession. When you are in the truth of your own spirituality, acceptance of others is trivial and meaningless, because you are fulfilled by your understanding of something greater than self....and greater than acceptance by others.

I am in a committed, healthy relationship. I'm proposing next month. Does that answer your question?

That's fine, but I didn't really ask a question, I was only making some observations. For the record, people who are unhappy and discontent can be in relationships and get married. People who have an obsessive need to be accepted, also get married... often, this is the REASON they do. You're searching... longing... for something that is missing. You've tried sex, drugs, partying, etc. but still, you don't feel satisfied or content... perhaps marriage will bring that? OR so you believe.

Now, I don't want to make assumptions about your relationship, you know if you truly love this person and want to spend the rest of your life with them, I can't possibly know your heart. But I do know, a LOT of people make the mistake of thinking marriage will fill that void in their life and bring them happiness, only to discover this is not the case. Happiness comes from within, from your healthy connection to your spiritual consciousness.

That's great for you, but it does nothing for me. It is completely subjective. For all I know, you are lying about this "spiritual force"...or you've deluded yourself, as I once did. You expect me to provide "proof" for everything I say, and then you have the audacity to write the above. Unbelievable.

Well, I can prove that I am not lying, that a spiritual force does exist. Or better yet, I can show you how to prove this to yourself, and you won't have to believe me, you'll know without a doubt. It begins first, with a commitment to follow the plan through in good faith, to the end. Unless you are honestly willing to do that, it won't work. I need 3 months... 90 days... and in the end, you will believe and know the supernatural force I am speaking of. Now, just from a philosophical standpoint, a few months is not much of a sacrifice for a lifetime of contentment and happiness. It's not a bad deal, if it works, right? Here's the plan...

First of all, there is no dogma, no 'religious' belief system, no 'chanting' unless you feel so compelled. It's a really simple ritual. Twice a day, once in the morning when you begin your day, and then again at the end of the day, before you lay your head on your pillow... Meditate. During your meditation, block out everything else around you, it helps to do this in some private place you won't be disturbed. During meditation, reflect on recent things that have gone wrong in your life, and examine how your attitude or disposition, may have played a role in the outcome. Would something have been better if you had not gotten upset or angry, but had chosen to approach it with a more positive mental attitude? Reflect on things that you could have done differently, and how your mindset, your frame of mind, your prejudices (not in a 'racial' sense, but rather a 'pre-determined' sense) may have been a factor in outcome, and how you might have approached those situations with a better more positive and inspired form of thinking. I would say, at least 30-45 minutes is a good meditation period. And nothing is set in stone on this, if you don't have time in the morning, do it on your lunch break.. many times, I have spent my lunch hour in my car, seat reclined back, looking as if I were napping. Some people like to light candles or turn on music while meditating, but music with lyrics should be avoided, as it tends to distract your mind. But candles (fire) and music, are very powerful spiritual connectors, this is why they are beneficial. Aroma is another powerful spiritual connector... incense or things like that, can be good. It's really a matter of personal preference, if you have difficulty focusing, you might try those things, and also it helps to be in a low-light environment, if possible.

Now that we've taken care of the 'ritualistic' part, let's focus on the exercise. Each day, make a list of three things you are going to do for someone else today. Positive things, of course.. don't decide you're going to slash your neighbor's tires for him... Think of people you love or admire, and then think of something you could do (not say...but DO) to show them. Think of someone you have sympathy for, and find something you can do (not say) to help their situation. Come up with at least three solid things each day, and then do them. Do them without any expectations, or any anticipation of thanks or reward, but just because you genuinely want to do this. Selflessness is a rewarding spiritual experience, in a matter of a few days, you will begin to feel something happening to you as a person. Three things a day, keep that up!

Okay... now it's time to teach you how to surf the positive energy wave. That sounds funny, but really, it's quite similar to surfing. "God" or the supernatural driving energy force, is flowing through our entire universe, and beyond. Think of this as the waves in the ocean, constantly streaming in to the shore. If you just stand in the ocean, the waves will knock you down... and you can get back up and continue to ignore them, but they will continue to knock you down. You can be as defiant of the waves as you wish, but you will tire long before the waves tire. BUT... If you remove your feet from the sand below, and learn to go with the flow of the wave, something amazing happens, it's no longer a struggle, you are no longer overwhelmed or frustrated, things go easier now...you're moving, you have purpose and direction... this is what tapping in to your spiritual energy achieves.

Every decision and choice you make, has some intrinsic attachment to positive or negative energy. Our conscience is a sometimes crude barometer of this. Think about every decision and choice you make each day, focus on making choices and decisions with positive energy flow as opposed to the negatives. Concentrate on not disrupting the flow, but going with it. On 'moral' choices... do what you honestly believe in your mind is the appropriate thing to do, disregard what others think, and don't lie to yourself, be honest. Try to systematically eliminate the 'bad habits' you have, and replace them with 'good habits' or things that have positive energy. Set a goal to eliminate something 'bad' each week, and replace it with 'good' ...and again, I put marks around 'bad' and 'good' because this is for your conscience and you to honestly determine, not me. All circumstance is different, and it is almost impossible to predict or predetermine, where the positive energy flow is, at any given time. This is why the meditation is very important. The key is being honest with yourself, and following through with determination and action.

Follow this plan for 90 days... then come back and tell me with all honesty, that you do not believe in a supernatural entity greater than self. For most people, the realization comes within a few days or weeks, and it is a very difficult plan to stick to, we get lazy and don't want to put forth the effort, or we become discouraged because we don't see immediate gratifying results.... but IF you can make yourself do this for 90 days, it's like exercise, you're hooked for life. The benefits are absolutely immeasurable, and indescribable to someone who isn't in the spiritual truth. Once you've had this experience, you will not just be a "believer" of something, you will KNOW, and there will never again be a question in your mind.
 
I don't believe in objective morality. Do I think there are a set of standards that works to the overall benefit of humanity? Yes. But I think that's born out of rational self interest. I dont like getting stolen from. Maybe people wont steal from me if I don't steal from them. I dont' want to be killed. Maybe if I agree to not kill people, they wont come and kill me. I think that's where most of what we call "morality" is derived from. Humans are social animals, and we have it in our genes to cooperate and be productive members of groups. Doing "immoral" things harms the groups success and would ultimately harm the individual.

But that doesn't mean if you stab a baby's eyeballs out, that the universe ultimately cares one way or the other.
 
I don't believe in objective morality. Do I think there are a set of standards that works to the overall benefit of humanity? Yes.

Then you believe in objective morality.

But I think that's born out of rational self interest.

Doesn't matter what objective morality is born out of. You claimed you didn't believe in it, then explained why you DO believe in it, then gave an irrational explanation for why you contradict yourself.

I dont like getting stolen from. Maybe people wont steal from me if I don't steal from them. I dont' want to be killed. Maybe if I agree to not kill people, they wont come and kill me. I think that's where most of what we call "morality" is derived from.

Again, perhaps one of us is having trouble interpreting "objective morality" but it seems you have presented a couple of very clear objectives for your morality here.

Humans are social animals, and we have it in our genes to cooperate and be productive members of groups. Doing "immoral" things harms the groups success and would ultimately harm the individual.

Nonsense, if we were genetically predisposed to be productive members of groups, we wouldn't have wars.

But that doesn't mean if you stab a baby's eyeballs out, that the universe ultimately cares one way or the other.

"Caring" is a human emotional trait, why would the inanimate universe have a human emotional trait? Is a cloud sad when it rains? Is the sun happy when it shines? If you drove a bulldozer straight into the oncoming waves of the ocean, would it stop the wave? Would the wave care that you tried to impede its progress? If you drove hundreds of bulldozers into the waves, would it ever discourage the waves from trying to reach the shore? Or would you say this is a futile and pointless exercise? Wouldn't it be less frustrating to park the bulldozers and embrace the wave, move with its flow, and ultimately enjoy the motion and movement?

You people fight spirituality because you don't understand it, and you're too lazy to take the effort. In your minds, it's easier to get in the old bulldozer everyday, and go out trying to stop the waves. You're limited by your ignorance, and you will remain limited as long as you remain closed-minded to the truth.
 
A natural explanation for morality

I find it curious you did't phrase this: Natural PROOF for morality

You chose the words, not me... so you can only speak for why you did that, but I think it's interesting. You would like to make the case that spiritual beliefs which support morality have somehow been proven meaningless by science or nature. They haven't been. You offer an "EXPLANATION" not proof. Yours is one explanation among many, it hasn't been proven to be the only true logical or accurate explanation, or you would have phrased your thread title differently. In fact... you wouldn't have even have been compelled to post a thread. The point of the thread, is to ARGUE. Now... if you had definitive proof of your point, there would be no need for argument. The fact of the matter is, you don't have definitive proof of anything, you have your "explanation" which is based on your "opinion." and that's really ALL you have.

Oh... and then, there is this:

I cannot even begin to describe the sense of overwhelming joy that I experienced when I realized that there is no god. It's probably very similar to the emotion experienced by a newly born-again Christian who's just accepted Jesus as his savior, except much more satisfying, because rather than subjecting myself to an imaginary spirit being, I realized that for all intents and purposes, I am my own god. I determine my own destiny; I am responsible for my own success and failure. With possible exception to love, the emotion that follows the realization that there is no god is truly the most joyous and satisfying that a human being can possibly experience. No longer do I live with the fear that there's a man in the sky out to get me personally if I piss him off.

Excuse me, but I don't believe a word you are saying. I don't believe you are the least bit content or comfortable in your personal beliefs, because you seek to argue your point of view with others. If you were content and comfortable with what you believed, you wouldn't feel the need to do that. You could just accept that you were smarter than everyone else, and it didn't matter what they believed. You don't have that... you are not positive yet... you need to argue in order to satisfy your nagging conscience, because you are uncomfortable with what you have chosen to believe. It would make you feel better, to convince other people to join you in your belief, therefore... you posted this thread. It would help you to reaffirm that you weren't wrong, if you could find others to agree with you... that is what compels you to incessantly wish to argue this here.

When you and Bill Mahr can shut your pie holes about religious people and God, then I will believe you are comfortable and content with what you believe. Until then, you keep on posting these sort of threads, and keep seeking the affirmation of other like-minded idiots to reassure yourself. Me and others, fully understand why you have to do that. Being detached from your spiritual connection can be a very insecure and threatening place, you can't help but be discontent. That's natural.

Dixie, you HAVE to realize the irony of that last part. That is exactly what you're doing every time you start a "proof that God exists" thread.

Exactly. I mean, that last paragraph is one of the most ironic things I've seen on this board.
 
Then you believe in objective morality.

No I don't. When I say "objective morality" I am implying a universal standard that everyone could agree on. Many of the "morals" we have are merely an agreement between parties, and that doesn't mean they aren't subjective. Different groups may have different morals, and in fact, we see that all over the world. What makes killing in a war moral? The other side of that conflict is going to disagree with your reasoning. There is no proof or scientific evidence or anything at all that would show a universal morality.


Again, perhaps one of us is having trouble interpreting "objective morality" but it seems you have presented a couple of very clear objectives for your morality here.

I have not tried to interpret objective morality. I barely talked about it.

Nonsense, if we were genetically predisposed to be productive members of groups, we wouldn't have wars.

LOL my what an idiot you are. So you are now arguing humans aren't social animals? Of course that's what we are predisposed to. It's how humans have functioned for millions of years. There are animals in the animal kingdom that are born and then live a completely solitary lifestyle. That is not the case with humans. We thrive and need each other. Just for our own sanity.

And to answer your question about wars, wars start because we identify with a group, our nation, or party, etc, and strive to defend it. Those on the other side are "others" and often dehumanized via propaganda.

"Caring" is a human emotional trait, why would the inanimate universe have a human emotional trait?

Already explained.

You people fight spirituality because you don't understand it, and you're too lazy to take the effort.

You think you are smarter than you are. Dunning-Kruger effect. look it up bro.
 
I think it is spelled 'Whoosh' and, since it is an exclamation, it carries an exclamation matk. (like this ! you'll find it just above the number 1 on your keyboard.

1) exclamation mark, not matk.
2) you forgot to close the parenthesis: when you use '(' you need to put a ')' after your comment to close it. Otherwise you look like a dumb Brit.
 
Dixie, you HAVE to realize the irony of that last part. That is exactly what you're doing every time you start a "proof that God exists" thread.

Exactly. I mean, that last paragraph is one of the most ironic things I've seen on this board.

Well, you are entitled to think what you want. I really don't give two shits if you EVER tap into your spirituality, it is YOU who is missing the benefit of that, not me.

I do like to interject some intelligent debate on this subject, just as a matter of conversation. When I posted the "Prove God Exists" thread, I was very clear from the first post, that the question depends on your faith. It also depends on how we define 'exists' or 'proof' or 'God' for that matter... I didn't answer the question and try to prove my answer or argue my personal conclusions, I left it entirely up for discussion on merit, and I pointed out flaws in logical thinking along the way, but this has nothing to do with me having a desire to "win you over" to my beliefs.
 
No I don't. When I say "objective morality" I am implying a universal standard that everyone could agree on. Many of the "morals" we have are merely an agreement between parties, and that doesn't mean they aren't subjective. Different groups may have different morals, and in fact, we see that all over the world. What makes killing in a war moral? The other side of that conflict is going to disagree with your reasoning. There is no proof or scientific evidence or anything at all that would show a universal morality.

Really? Because in my dictionary, "OBJECTIVE" means something totally different. "Objective morality" would mean, the morality has an objective. You cited several objectives to follow, so it was very confusing to understand what you meant. You don't believe in a morality that isn't subjective, is that what you are saying? Well, maybe I can see that, but I do know that every moral decision or choice, has a positive or negative consequential value. We are hard wired to understand this, but some chose to ignore this, and do as they please for the self-gratification of the moment.

I have not tried to interpret objective morality. I barely talked about it.

Didn't say you tried to interpret it. I said one of us must have the wrong interpretation, and I was correct.

LOL my what an idiot you are. So you are now arguing humans aren't social animals? Of course that's what we are predisposed to. It's how humans have functioned for millions of years. There are animals in the animal kingdom that are born and then live a completely solitary lifestyle. That is not the case with humans. We thrive and need each other. Just for our own sanity.

I didn't say we weren't social animals, just that we are not genetically predisposed to be productive members of groups... we're NOT.

And to answer your question about wars, wars start because we identify with a group, our nation, or party, etc, and strive to defend it. Those on the other side are "others" and often dehumanized via propaganda.

Again... dispelling the myth that we are predisposed to be productive members of a group. If this was our predisposition, our group would become part of their group, and we'd all drink Coca-Cola and sing together on a hillside. We're NOT predisposed to do this, genetically or otherwise.



"Caring" is a human emotional trait, why would the inanimate universe have a human emotional trait?

Already explained.

Not seeing it. Sorry.

You think you are smarter than you are. Dunning-Kruger effect. look it up bro.

I'm familiar with it... haven't we seen each other at the support group meetings? ;)
 
Objective Morality is a description of why the moral code was made...

The Objective: To create a self-perpetuating or growing society to allow for the continuing species.

To that end a set of moral "values" became popular. Not eating each other, for instance, or feeding the young and helping them learn, even not interbreeding in most places...
 
sam harris is known as one of the "four horsemen" of new atheism. along with richard dawkins, some other guy, and christopher hitchens. (rip).

hitchens is my favorite, so of course he just died. Just like all my favorite people.

Wow, then there is some comfort in not being one of your favorite people! ;)
 
Spirituality is a chemical reaction, or a result of genes and evolution. This area of study of the human brain is finally being studied and there are new discoveries of why humans experience "awe" for one thing, why we create art and music. Why somany can't, but it is all about the function of our human brains.
 
1) exclamation mark, not matk.
2) you forgot to close the parenthesis: when you use '(' you need to put a ')' after your comment to close it. Otherwise you look like a dumb Brit.

Most people are dumb to their enemies. I also suffer from not reading my own posts. (the 'R' and the 'T' are side by side on my keyboard and too close for fingers like elephant feet. .... now, shall I close that bracket? .... OK, I will.).
Anyway your post got a 'Thank you' even if it was only from the king of Dumb.
 
Spirituality is a chemical reaction, or a result of genes and evolution. This area of study of the human brain is finally being studied and there are new discoveries of why humans experience "awe" for one thing, why we create art and music. Why somany can't, but it is all about the function of our human brains.

I tend to agree with this. There are certainly some unknowns, such as research that implies consciousness can exist outside of the body, but this is not proof of a higher power. It simply means consciousness / self-awareness may be a bit different and more complex than we previously imagined.
 
Really? Because in my dictionary, "OBJECTIVE" means something totally different. "Objective morality" would mean, the morality has an objective.

Objective has multiple meanings. One of which means "exists in the object", and is contrasted with subjective ("exists in the subject"), and the other which is a synonym for "goal". The logical fallacy you have just committed is equivocation, or "the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time)."
 
Spirituality is a chemical reaction, or a result of genes and evolution. This area of study of the human brain is finally being studied and there are new discoveries of why humans experience "awe" for one thing, why we create art and music. Why somany can't, but it is all about the function of our human brains.

I tend to agree with this. There are certainly some unknowns, such as research that implies consciousness can exist outside of the body, but this is not proof of a higher power. It simply means consciousness / self-awareness may be a bit different and more complex than we previously imagined.

Here's the thing you are both missing... How utterly fascinating is it, that this miraculous functioning of the brain, genes, chemicals, etc., is a result of sheer happenstance? That there is no real explanation for why or where it came from? Human imagination and creativity is the result of some totally random cosmic event that you can't explain, which provided the elements, chemistry, conditions and environment, in which culminated in all life, imagination, and ultimately, creation itself.

Yet you are certain there isn't some supernatural force at play? Science can prove this, right???
 
If objective morality means that morality has an objective, does subjective morality mean that morality has a subjective? Is subjective morality a term without meaning, a fact which our resident scholar, Dixie, has just recently unearthed, to the chagrin of the many millions who've used the term throughout history with the opposite impression?
 
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