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[Damocles]

When you jump into a swimming pool, or get behind the wheel of a car, you are personally accepting a certain level of risk.

When you're sitting in a college class room, you should not reasonably be expected to accept the risk that somebody might blow your head off with 9mm ammunition.

Which is why I said, "if numbers are what we are working to avoid".

There are laws against guns on the campuses in VA, there is also a strict policy of no guns. The laws didn't stop him.

As I said before, it becomes necessary to look at reality. We need to stop these people at the point of attack, as even if laws were passed to make all guns illegal it would take decades before such attacks would be difficult to commit. There are simply too many guns currently to easily get that done.

So, we should look at places that actually solved the issue of attacks at schools, what did they do?

Israel would be a good place to start. Terrorists started attacking schools, they made changes to protect the children at the point of attack making them unsuccessful for a large part. Terrorists began going for other targets...

I think it is simplistic to say that anti-gun measures would solve this problem. It is going to take more than that.

 

[uscitizen]

So, we should look at places that actually solved the issue of attacks at schools, what did they do?
//

It has been SOLVED anywhwere ? or just not happened in a while....One of the profs here was at Kent State during that incident.. His comment was it can happen anywhere...

 

[Damocles]

So, we should look at places that actually solved the issue of attacks at schools, what did they do?
//

It has been SOLVED anywhwere ? or just not happened in a while....One of the profs here was at Kent State during that incident.. His comment was it can happen anywhere...

In Israel they have done a good job of stopping the attacks at schools, it isn't like the people who want to attack of stopped, they just pick different targets. However, I do believe that at a place and time when they can neither see or avoid danger kids need to be protected. To have ineffective response time lag when there are other options available is placing kids in an unenviable position indeed. As long as they are the most vulnerable place, schools will continue to be the target of maniacs.

 

[AnyOldIron]

If it is numbers of unnecessary deaths we are worried about, why are we not banning swimming pools?

The major difference is that the purpose of swimming pools isn't entirely to kill humans....

 

[leaningright]

If it is numbers of unnecessary deaths we are worried about, why are we not banning swimming pools?

The major difference is that the purpose of swimming pools isn't entirely to kill humans....

And the purpose of guns isn't entirely to kill humans either......or even animals for that matter.

 

[AnyOldIron]

We need to stop these people at the point of attack, as even if laws were passed to make all guns illegal it would take decades before such attacks would be difficult to commit. There are simply too many guns currently to easily get that done.

Why not do both? Until weapons are out of circulation, introduce detection equipment at entrances of such schools.

Or alternatively, create a true atmosphere of education by having everybody armed to the teeth, pointing their handguns at each other constantly, in case one shoots first...

 

[uscitizen]

In Israel they have done a good job of stopping the attacks at schools, it isn't like the people who want to attack of stopped, they just pick different targets. However, I do believe that at a place and time when they can neither see or avoid danger kids need to be protected. To have ineffective response time lag when there are other options available is placing kids in an unenviable position indeed. As long as they are the most vulnerable place, schools will continue to be the target of maniacs.

So we need to live in a police state ?
With armed military personnel on every corner ?
Humvees crusing the strip, etc...

 

[Damocles]

We need to stop these people at the point of attack, as even if laws were passed to make all guns illegal it would take decades before such attacks would be difficult to commit. There are simply too many guns currently to easily get that done.

Why not do both? Until weapons are out of circulation, introduce detection equipment at entrances of such schools.

Or alternatively, create a true atmosphere of education by having everybody armed to the teeth, pointing their handguns at each other constantly, in case one shoots first...

Well, the whole Constitution issue makes that much more difficult. Thankfully. If I learned one thing from New Orleans is that when the stuff hits the electrical convenience the government won't be there for you.

And if I've learned one thing from this President is that the government can and will, if they think they can get away with it, stomp all over rights.

So, to answer your question, "Why not both?" Because I do not believe in the benevolence of the government on all occasions and I think that the right to revolt may again be necessary.

 

[Damocles]

So we need to live in a police state ?
With armed military personnel on every corner ?
Humvees crusing the strip, etc...

No, but you can learn from their ideas. Training Teacher volunteers who would be willing to use such devices in such cases can be one good idea. Taking an idea to an extreme when the same extreme situation doesn't exist is a logical fallacy.

Much like the Sky Marshalls, when they don't know who the good guys are they are likely to pick a softer target. Let's not make our children's schools the softest target available. Let's put some value to their lives and protect them as much as possible.

 

[Damocles]

If it is numbers of unnecessary deaths we are worried about, why are we not banning swimming pools?

The major difference is that the purpose of swimming pools isn't entirely to kill humans....

And I'll say the same thing I said to the last person. My point was screaming out statistics, especially just numbers of deaths, makes it seem as if this is your only concern. Especially when saying things like "guns kill people". So do swimming pools, and at a far faster clip than guns in this nation. I fully understand the difference between being killed by the action of another and dying in an unfortunate accident.

My point was to not sit here and quote numbers at me, numbers can be quoted and changed, statistics are easily manipulated.

 

[uscitizen]

We are getting there Damo, we are getting there.
And most of us are welcoming it in the name of security.

 

[AnyOldIron]

Especially when saying things like "guns kill people". So do swimming pools, and at a far faster clip than guns in this nation. I fully understand the difference between being killed by the action of another and dying in an unfortunate accident.

It isn't enough to just state 'guns kill people'. It should be also pointed out that killing people is the raison d'etre of guns, particularly handguns.

Comparing swimming pools and guns is not valid because of this point.

America needs to have an internal dialogue with reference to the role of such weapons in society. These school shootings are becoming so regular now.

The US cannot claim that it has more loners, or madmen than other countries, nor that it is innately more violent than other countries. The differing factor is the prolification of weapons.

 

[uscitizen]

A certain percentage of the US society trhives on violence and killing. The popularity of blood and gore and violence pictures proves this point. The popular support for Bush's invasion of Iraq is another point on this. The continued indifference to the deaths and suffering in Iraq is another supportin point for my theory.
I believe we are mostly still animals with a thin veneer of civilization on us.

This is not all of us, just the vocal "majority".

 

[AnyOldIron]

A certain percentage of the US society trhives on violence and killing. The popularity of blood and gore and violence pictures proves this point.

No more so than other great nations. You rarely see the level of violence you see in European football matches in US sports for example. Violence is in European blood, a brief glimpse through our history demonstrates that in comparison, the US has no greater bloodlust. We also have loners and nutters who hate the world and want to inflict pain and death on people. The difference is, the lack of prolification of firearms restricts the damage they can do.

 

[Damocles]

Especially when saying things like "guns kill people". So do swimming pools, and at a far faster clip than guns in this nation. I fully understand the difference between being killed by the action of another and dying in an unfortunate accident.

It isn't enough to just state 'guns kill people'. It should be also pointed out that killing people is the raison d'etre of guns, particularly handguns.

Comparing swimming pools and guns is not valid because of this point.

America needs to have an internal dialogue with reference to the role of such weapons in society. These school shootings are becoming so regular now.

The US cannot claim that it has more loners, or madmen than other countries, nor that it is innately more violent than other countries. The differing factor is the prolification of weapons.

Once again, my point wasn't that we should start comparing pools and guns, but that the numbers themselves, alone in a point, make it so we should... Only quoting numbers without regard to the intent can make many comparisons that are detrimental to your point.

Guns are not all made to "kill people" any more than a screwdriver is made only to put together bycicles. It is the "raison d'etre" for the gun to kill things, but not necessarily people. This doesn't make it any better that people use them often to kill people, nor excuse it. But exaggerating to such a level that guns are only created to "kill people" doesn't serve well either.

To those above who say that modern nations never will go through coups or revolutions need only look so far as South America to know that it isn't an impossibility. That you trust the benevolence of the government will not convince me that such benevolence exists. This distrust of government, while not unique to the US, is definitely more prevalent here.

 

[uscitizen]

Damo the primary reason guns even exist is to kill people. Like it or not that is the fact of the matter. Check the history and evoloution of the gun...
It is not really right to compare them to screwdrivews which were intended to be only tools to repair things.
I understand where you are coming from, but the fact is Guns were invented to kill people and most improvements have been for the same reason.

 

[Damocles]

Damo the primary reason guns even exist is to kill people. Like it or not that is the fact of the matter. Check the history and evoloution of the gun...
It is not really right to compare them to screwdrivews which were intended to be only tools to repair things.
I understand where you are coming from, but the fact is Guns were invented to kill people and most improvements have been for the same reason.

*sigh*

Some have been some haven't. It doesn't really matter to me why they were created, I believe that the original reason that people were given the right to own and bear arms still exists.

My point has been that your argument will be less effective if you constantly give that as the only reason for the existence of guns. It will end up burying your argument is side arguments about screwdrivers, etc.

 

[uscitizen]

The argument that guns are needed to possibly overthrow the govt is an argument that they might be needed to kill people. The augument that they are for self protection is the same, killing people.

That is the real root.

I am for gun ownership by responsible persons, but the fact remains that they exist largely to kill other humans....

Now I am not saying it is not proper to kill another human in self defence, but killing is the main reason guns exist and we own em.