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IHG, you can't blame it on the institution of slavery.

Blame it all? No, cite is an an important difference between the US and other western nations and the legacy it caused I most certainly can blame it for a fair amount of things. No insitution in this country caused things to veer from how they should than slavery.

Let's be honest, instead of tap dancing around the real reasons. This isn't rocket science. The reason we have more gun violence, is largely because of these two elements:

1) We have more guns, particularly handguns, than anywhere else.

2) Of all the developed nations, we have the largest degree of institutionalized social and economic injustice - and all the inherent social problems that creates, which include but are not limited to, crime, drugs, education, and economic opportunity.

It is much more of the second reason which explains the difference between the US and other western nations that allow people to have guns.

Most of the things in your second example are related to America's misadventure with race.
 
Cypress said:
More confirmation that you didn't really see the movie ;)

Moore wasn't arguing with him. Moore was asking him pointed, yet legitimate questions. In a relatively respectful way I might add. He wasn't dogging him.

The only thing that was embarrassing was Heston's assertion that crime in america is the fault of blacks. I don't care whether he had alzheimers or not. He almost immediately knew what he said was wrong, because he stormed out of the interview 30 seconds after that.
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Once again, watch the movie. He got confused because of ephasia, a symptom of the disease, realized that he couldn't make the point correctly and left. He was defeated by a disease. Watch the scene again with your now current knowledge of the disease.

It's not like I agree with the guy or something, but I do recognize that disease.

I definitely saw the movie, but I could really care less whether you think I did. That is a worthless point. I have definitely saw the scene, know he approached him at his home, uninvited, and watched with the knowledge of the alzheimers. The confusion had nothing to do with Moore, and everything to do with his disease. Once again, catching "out" an alzheimer patient is no reason to pound your chest.

And if you think that asking weighted questions is not a form of debate then I don't know if you have ever read any of the threads around here. Let alone watched the movie yourself.
 
IHateGovernment said:
IHG, you can't blame it on the institution of slavery.

Blame it all? No, cite is an an important difference between the US and other western nations and the legacy it caused I most certainly can blame it for a fair amount of things. No insitution in this country caused things to veer from how they should than slavery.

Let's be honest, instead of tap dancing around the real reasons. This isn't rocket science. The reason we have more gun violence, is largely because of these two elements:

1) We have more guns, particularly handguns, than anywhere else.

2) Of all the developed nations, we have the largest degree of institutionalized social and economic injustice - and all the inherent social problems that creates, which include but are not limited to, crime, drugs, education, and economic opportunity.

It is much more of the second reason which explains the difference between the US and other western nations that allow people to have guns.

Most of the things in your second example are related to America's misadventure with race.
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mmm. I think you nullify class here. And I know that bringing up class, is class warfare, and talking it is considered a more egregious sin than waging it, but still, bring it up I must.
 
No class matters too Darla. My omission != nullification. However there is greater class mobility in this nation than most. Our disdain for class identification also helps.
 
IHateGovernment said:
IHG, you can't blame it on the institution of slavery.

Blame it all? No, cite is an an important difference between the US and other western nations and the legacy it caused I most certainly can blame it for a fair amount of things. No insitution in this country caused things to veer from how they should than slavery.

Let's be honest, instead of tap dancing around the real reasons. This isn't rocket science. The reason we have more gun violence, is largely because of these two elements:

1) We have more guns, particularly handguns, than anywhere else.

2) Of all the developed nations, we have the largest degree of institutionalized social and economic injustice - and all the inherent social problems that creates, which include but are not limited to, crime, drugs, education, and economic opportunity.

It is much more of the second reason which explains the difference between the US and other western nations that allow people to have guns.

Most of the things in your second example are related to America's misadventure with race.
Click to expand...

I contend blaming slavery is a cop out. A convenient excuse.

The level of gun violence among all demograhics of americans, is exponentially higher than other developed nations. And that includes white on white gun violence, which has no conceivable relationship to our history with slavery.

It's very simple. It's the availability of handguns in the nation, relative to other nations, and its a culture of crime and violence bred indirectly - at least in large part - by our unique (among developed nations) and ubiquitous massive social and economic inequalities.
 
IHG,

I just went to the Department of Justice crime database.

The majority of homicide victims in the U.S., are white.

And over 90% of white homicides, are a result of white-on-white murder. You can't possibly link that to institutionalized slavery and racism.


The slavery angle your playing up, isn't panning out too well.

White on white homicide (and presumably gun violence) in this country are at levels that would never be tolerated in other developed nations.
 
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Cypress, it is myopic to think that our history of institutionalized racism stops at affecting blacks and doesn't affect our society in general terms.

It is about memes spread through society. This is a society which does not place high value on life or civility to one another. In our history this nation accepted inequality as an automatic. Not as a result of lack of intelligence, drive or work ethic but as a burden of birth. This is a society that has continually embraced violence as a means to an end to enforce a status quo that preserves this inbalance.

This spread of memes infects all within the culture not just those it directly targets. It teaches the victim and the oppressor that violence is a legitimate solution and that inequality imposed is acceptable and that we are no longer responsible for correcting the errors of the past.

The kind of power structure created to support such a system isn't some precise scalpel that only affect those targeted. It poisons the entire well of a culture from those on the bottom to those on the top.

Consider this before you think just giving me some statistics on white crime will suffice. The entire nation could be homogenized tomorrow and we would still have this problem.

Remember when I say I blame slavery or institutionalized racism you must remember I do not solely blame it. And in the solutions I recommend I do not mean to say only racism must be attacked but the artifacts it created as well.
 
Countries like Japan and Korea don't have people who are castaways of society

Oh they do. The idea of being 'castaway' is very popular in Japanese culture, lets not forget the Ronin. In modern day Japan, the pressure to succeed, particularly in Japan is huge, and leads to many many school suicides every year.

There are those outside society in virtually all countries, the difference being those countries don't have school massacres on the regularity you have in the US. The difference is the prolification of handguns and the attitudes to handguns exhibited in the US, exemplified by the calls I have seen on the news in the US for every college student to be armed, as if arming everyone will resolve the situation.
 
This is a society which does not place high value on life or civility to one another. In our history this nation accepted inequality as an automatic. Not as a result of lack of intelligence, drive or work ethic but as a burden of birth. This is a society that has continually embraced violence as a means to an end to enforce a status quo that preserves this inbalance.

And how does this differ from the history of say, Britain, with our empire and huge slave trade?

This nation has a very violent and discriminating history, probably more so than the US.

We still have a violent culture. Visit any town or city centre on a friday or saturday night and you'll see violence. But it rarely reaches lethal levels, simply because there are so few guns in the UK.
 
It is interesting to note that the African nations that experienced apartheid Zimbabwe and South Africa have the most violent crime.

Zimbabwe's violence is mostly perpetrated by the government on its citizens. South Africa has a high firearm fatality rate because it has such a prolific number of firearms.

Its simple, the more prolific firearms are, the more firearms fatalities you have...
 
IHateGovernment said:
Cypress, it is myopic to think that our history of institutionalized racism stops at affecting blacks and doesn't affect our society in general terms.

It is about memes spread through society. This is a society which does not place high value on life or civility to one another. In our history this nation accepted inequality as an automatic. Not as a result of lack of intelligence, drive or work ethic but as a burden of birth. This is a society that has continually embraced violence as a means to an end to enforce a status quo that preserves this inbalance.

This spread of memes infects all within the culture not just those it directly targets. It teaches the victim and the oppressor that violence is a legitimate solution and that inequality imposed is acceptable and that we are no longer responsible for correcting the errors of the past.

The kind of power structure created to support such a system isn't some precise scalpel that only affect those targeted. It poisons the entire well of a culture from those on the bottom to those on the top.

Consider this before you think just giving me some statistics on white crime will suffice. The entire nation could be homogenized tomorrow and we would still have this problem.

Remember when I say I blame slavery or institutionalized racism you must remember I do not solely blame it. And in the solutions I recommend I do not mean to say only racism must be attacked but the artifacts it created as well.
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That's my point. Blaming slavery and racial tension for our incredible level of gun violence is a cop out. You could remove every black person and hispanic person from america tommorow, and simply the level of white on white gun violence is still orders of magnitude higher than anywhere else in the world.

Does our history of slavery create problems? Yes. Does it suffice to even try to name institutionalized racism as a primary cause of our extreme gun violence? No. It's not even close to being a primary cause.

We have a TON of hand guns in this country. That's the largest problem.
 
I would say more likely thousands of Tons, I personaly have 100 lbs or more of guns...
I even have a concealed carry permit, but have only used it a couple of times.
 
uscitizen said:
I would say more likely thousands of Tons, I personaly have 100 lbs or more of guns...
I even have a concealed carry permit, but have only used it a couple of times.
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I've recently signed up for a class on concealed weapons that is supposed to be very good. I have to renew my permit.
 
IMHO damo those that carry guns all the time in their vehicles or on their persons are generally the ones most likely to misuse them....
I prefer to avoid the situations where a gun would be needed.
 
uscitizen said:
I would say more likely thousands of Tons, I personaly have 100 lbs or more of guns...
I even have a concealed carry permit, but have only used it a couple of times.
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My dad was a handgun nut. He must have had close to a dozen handguns.

Including some old russian and german military sidearms. I gotta admit, when I was a kid, I thought that was so cool.
 
Damocles said:
If it is numbers of unnecessary deaths we are worried about, why are we not banning swimming pools?
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When you jump into a swimming pool, or get behind the wheel of a car, you are personally accepting a certain level of risk.

When you're sitting in a college class room, you should not reasonably be expected to accept the risk that somebody might blow your head off with 9mm ammunition.
 
uscitizen said:
IMHO damo those that carry guns all the time in their vehicles or on their persons are generally the ones most likely to misuse them....
I prefer to avoid the situations where a gun would be needed.
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I carry all the time except where prohibited......schools, hospitals and such. Now they are among the places where one likely will need defense at some point judging by recent and not so recent events. I even carry when I preach, not because I think I'll need the weapon but out of habit. When I get dressed in the mornings it is just as natural a thing for me to put my weapon on as it is to put my wallet in my pocket. I also avoid situations/places where I might actually need to use my weapon. Don't want to have to, you know.
 
Cypress said:
When you jump into a swimming pool, or get behind the wheel of a car, you are personally accepting a certain level of risk.

When you're sitting in a college class room, you should not reasonably be expected to accept the risk that somebody might blow your head off with 9mm ammunition.
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I believe in the commands given in boxing though. I live life this way. I'm not scared but I am prepared.......I hope.
 
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