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Damocles said:
I have most definitely seen the movie. And I watched it with the knowledge of Mr. Heston's announcement. Getting an alzheimer's patient confused to the point of storming off.... Huge challenge. Moore must be proud of his mental acuity.
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Heston simply "got confused" when he blamed blacks for violence in america? I don't think so. His confusion may be a reality. But, His views on blacks are crystal clear.

Heston has a history of making controversial statements about women, blacks, and gays. Before he had alzheimers.
 
IHateGovernment said:
This was a man who yelled outt "out of my cold, dead hands" right after columbine so you know, too bad.

Darla you don't think the considerations I point take out some of the bite of Heston's comments. Does the cancellation of events in Denver and the rescheduling of meetings to show sympathy and decorum not count for anything?

The NRA actually did what its critics catigate it for not doing. I'm not sure what you want of them. Should Heston have proclaimed "I've been wrong the whole time lets abandon our organizations purpose and work toward gun control?"

And why do you consider the NRA evil. Over zealous maybe but evil?
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I honestly find the man who said those words, and the way he spoke them, to be evil. I find the agenda of the NRA, who is against even the most sensible gun control, and control of certain kinds of bullets, to be evil. I find everything about them to be that way.

You think that I have been brainwashed because someone put one scene before the other or something, but what you and Damo don't understand is that, I don't care. I don't care. I know who they are, and Iknow what they are, and I don't care who does what to them, and in fact, I wouldn't care if someone broke into their "voting meetings" and shot all of their asses up, because they are probably the only people who actually deserve that. And I wouldn't be surprised if that one day happens, because when you live in a society that allows its children to be massacred because a bunch of old men want to play cowboy and scream "out of my cold dead hands" because it's the closest thing to an erection they'll get all year, then you leave behind some very devastated people. Some of whom may feel they have nothing left lose and might be looking to exact some payback. So my scenerio is not far-fetched, and someday it will probably happen, and that will be Karma when it does.
 
Cypress said:
Heston simply "got confused" when he blamed blacks for violence in america? I don't think so. His confusion may be a reality. But, His views on blacks are crystal clear.

Heston has a history of making controversial statements about women, blacks, and gays. Before he had alzheimers.
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He was trying to voice the NRA's position and getting the wording all mucked up because of ephasia. Watch the movie again with you current knowledge of Heston's alzheimers. You'll see what I am talking about.

Whether Moore knew about it at the time of the debate, the knowledge was certainly out before he decided to include that scene of his great victory over the alzheimer patient and put it on the wide screen.

When he announced I had already begun wondering why he had less appearances in public, that all we were seeing were those commercials. I found out. So did Moore.

I'll bet even you could out-argue an alzheimer patient, Cypress. Certainly using that argument to "prove" a point is silly.
 
Darla said:
I honestly find the man who said those words, and the way he spoke them, to be evil. I find the agenda of the NRA, who is against even the most sensible gun control, and control of certain kinds of bullets, to be evil. I find everything about them to be that way.

You think that I have been brainwashed because someone put one scene before the other or something, but what you and Damo don't understand is that, I don't care. I don't care. I know who they are, and Iknow what they are, and I don't care who does what to them, and in fact, I wouldn't care if someone broke into their "voting meetings" and shot all of their asses up, because they are probably the only people who actually deserve that. And I wouldn't be surprised if that one day happens, because when you live in a society that allows its children to be massacred because a bunch of old men want to play cowboy and scream "out of my cold dead hands" because it's the closest thing to an erection they'll get all year, then you leave behind some very devastated people. Some of whom may feel they have nothing left lose and might be looking to exact some payback. So my scenerio is not far-fetched, and someday it will probably happen, and that will be Karma when it does.
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Read the above very carefully. This is the very attitude we have to guard against and an attitude that has cost the democratic party dearly in past national elections. This attitude is more of a "yellow dog" attitude concerning guns and what we need is more of a "blue dog" attitude. The NRA has always stood for sensible measures.......instant background checks, three strikes rule (I am for more of a one pitch tournament myself), they teach safety class after safety class all across the country. I can't go to Washington to argue for my rights so I pay the NRA to do so. When I get my voting guide (which I don't follow every time) they have listed more democrats that they recommend I vote for than they do republicans. The appearance of partisanship [within the NRA] is only on a national level. I don't like everything they do, I don't like the continual begging for money, but I pay my dues every year for them to stand as me and for me.....plus I get some very good hunting magazines.
 

I honestly find the man who said those words, and the way he spoke them, to be evil. I find the agenda of the NRA, who is against even the most sensible gun control, and control of certain kinds of bullets, to be evil. I find everything about them to be that way.

You see I find that admirable in the NRA. They seek to protect constitutional rights even to an extreme and against public opinion. They are principled. I am also a big fan of the ACLU. I often find similar arguments to yours as to why the ACLU is evil from conservatives. But I admire them for the same reasons even when the protect an organization as disgusting as Nambla's free speech rights.

You think that I have been brainwashed because someone put one scene before the other or something, but what you and Damo don't understand is that, I don't care. I don't care. I know who they are, and Iknow what they are, and I don't care who does what to them, and in fact, I wouldn't care if someone broke into their "voting meetings" and shot all of their asses up, because they are probably the only people who actually deserve that.

Darla thats a terrible thing to say. Should someone shoot me because I support the second amendment.

Do you know any NRA members? Do they actually fit that stereotype? To me gun violence is tragic but I also know that it comes from sickness in our society and not just guns. Guns make it easier but I oppose the strong gun control lobby because it distracts us from addressing the real source of problems in our society.
 
leaningright said:
Read the above very carefully. This is the very attitude we have to guard against and an attitude that has cost the democratic party dearly in past national elections. This attitude is more of a "yellow dog" attitude concerning guns and what we need is more of a "blue dog" attitude. The NRA has always stood for sensible measures.......instant background checks, three strikes rule (I am for more of a one pitch tournament myself), they teach safety class after safety class all across the country. I can't go to Washington to argue for my rights so I pay the NRA to do so. When I get my voting guide (which I don't follow every time) they have listed more democrats that they recommend I vote for than they do republicans. The appearance of partisanship [within the NRA] is only on a national level. I don't like everything they do, I don't like the continual begging for money, but I pay my dues every year for them to stand as me and for me.....plus I get some very good hunting magazines.
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The NRA is an extremist organization against things that by far, the majority of Americans are for. You are out of the mainstream,not I.

Do you honestly believe that the majority of Americans are against banning the so-called "cop-killer" bullet? Do you?

Do you honestly believe that most Americans stand against a three day waiting period? An extensive background check?

The Democrats have caved on this issue and don't talk about, so have no fear. Your agenda, your gun agenda, is alive and well. Too bad we can't say the same for some of its victims, eh?
 
Cypress said:
I bet handguns are harder to get in south korea.

You know what I'm tired of Damo? That some people always say it's because we're not a homogenous society, that we have more gun violence. This is code for saying that our ethnic diversity (read: minorities) causes gun violence.

I seriously doubt that ethnic background, or skin color, has any inherent causal relationship to gun violence.
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I don't buy that argument any more than you do: it's fundamentally irrational. There is, however, some compelling evidence that our problem with guns is cultural rather than structural. Ironically, the NRA is half right: guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people more easily than people without guns.

As Michael Moore and many others have pointed out, Canadians own even more guns than we do per capita. Yet their rate of gun violence is much lower. Go figure.

I do believe that certain weapons should be restricted. I also have no problem at all with registration and limits on the number of weapons owned. All the gun regulation in the world, however, ain't gonna fix what's wrong with our culture. That's a much more difficult problem.
 
Cypress Heston was making an argument that I myself have used and I'm no racist. Our history of racism in this country has created a marginalized underclass that creates situations in which people find it more acceptable to engage in violent crime.

I don't think it is racist to say so. In fact it is a criticism of racism itself. I don't think Heston is the kind of racist he is made out to be. He picketed segregated restaurants and marched with Dr. King.

I feel bad for Heston he was characterized that way because I can see someone possibly mischaracterizing the kind of things I say. In fact that idiot CanadianKid was trying to pull that bullshit yesterday.
 
IHateGovernment said:

I honestly find the man who said those words, and the way he spoke them, to be evil. I find the agenda of the NRA, who is against even the most sensible gun control, and control of certain kinds of bullets, to be evil. I find everything about them to be that way.

You see I find that admirable in the NRA. They seek to protect constitutional rights even to an extreme and against public opinion. They are principled. I am also a big fan of the ACLU. I often find similar arguments to yours as to why the ACLU is evil from conservatives. But I admire them for the same reasons even when the protect an organization as disgusting as Nambla's free speech rights.

You think that I have been brainwashed because someone put one scene before the other or something, but what you and Damo don't understand is that, I don't care. I don't care. I know who they are, and Iknow what they are, and I don't care who does what to them, and in fact, I wouldn't care if someone broke into their "voting meetings" and shot all of their asses up, because they are probably the only people who actually deserve that.

Darla thats a terrible thing to say. Should someone shoot me because I support the second amendment.

Do you know any NRA members? Do they actually fit that stereotype? To me gun violence is tragic but I also know that it comes from sickness in our society and not just guns. Guns make it easier but I oppose the strong gun control lobby because it distracts us from addressing the real source of problems in our society.
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Did I say someone should shoot you? I am talking about that national meeting, where all the bigwigs gather for their big "vote".

Why, its better the next one (for there will be a next one) should happen in a school again???
 
The NRA is an extremist organization against things that by far, the majority of Americans are for. You are out of the mainstream,not I.

Being an extremist isn't always bad. Being in the mainstream not always good. Can one be an extremist when it comes to civil liberties. Maybe but I favor them.
 
WE do need some gun control, bring back the Brady bill. I liked that common sense gun limits.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
I don't buy that argument any more than you do: it's fundamentally irrational. There is, however, some compelling evidence that our problem with guns is cultural rather than structural. Ironically, the NRA is half right: guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people more easily than people without guns.

As Michael Moore and many others have pointed out, Canadians own even more guns than we do per capita. Yet their rate of gun violence is much lower. Go figure.

I do believe that certain weapons should be restricted. I also have no problem at all with registration and limits on the number of weapons owned. All the gun regulation in the world, however, ain't gonna fix what's wrong with our culture. That's a much more difficult problem.
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I agree with this Ornot, and it't the extremists in the NRA I take objection to. I basically have always felt, if you want to own a gun, and you're sane and have no criminal background, fine. Chances are you will shoot either yourself with it while "cleaning it" (Iput that in quotation marks because I have some suspicions about what they are realling doing with those guns when they go off) or you're going to kill a family member, when you jump up out of a drunken stupor one night thinking that one of em black fellas from the cit-u-dad has broken in. Or, you won't kill anybody.

But I do have a problem with extremists who fight against any legislation, even against bullest designed to go through bullet proof vests! Whose sole purpose is to kill a human being. Mostly cops. To me, those people would greatly benefit from a bullet up the ass, but that is just my opinion, and I don't want to offend anybody.
 
Did I say someone should shoot you? I am talking about that national meeting, where all the bigwigs gather for their big "vote".

No you didn't but I share many of the same opinions.

Why, its better the next one (for there will be a next one) should happen in a school again???

I think we should address other issues before turning to taking away people's rights. As Ornot pointed out as did Michael Moore they have plenty of Guns in Canada but this is much rarer. Canada doesn't have the sick culture that we do here. Can we legislatively change our culture? No. But perhaps the answer does not lie in laws or government action. Maybe the change has to lie with ourselves and how we treat our neighbors and raise our children.
 
WE do need some gun control, bring back the Brady bill. I liked that common sense gun limits.

Brady bill is still in effect as far as I know.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
I don't buy that argument any more than you do: it's fundamentally irrational. There is, however, some compelling evidence that our problem with guns is cultural rather than structural. Ironically, the NRA is half right: guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people more easily than people without guns.

As Michael Moore and many others have pointed out, Canadians own even more guns than we do per capita. Yet their rate of gun violence is much lower. Go figure.

I do believe that certain weapons should be restricted. I also have no problem at all with registration and limits on the number of weapons owned. All the gun regulation in the world, however, ain't gonna fix what's wrong with our culture. That's a much more difficult problem.
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Also Ornot, none of this fits what happened yesterday. Our culture did not produce this guy, S Korea's culture did. He didnt' become a violent, homicidal maniac during his six months here. he was one when he arrived. But why did he do this here, and not in S Korea? That is where I think we might see that easily available guns come into play.

And the culture question still interests me, because I think that it does, usually, play a big part.
 
Darla said:
The NRA is an extremist organization against things that by far, the majority of Americans are for. You are out of the mainstream,not I.
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So we are going to resort to mob rule. But this post wasn't a question about who is in or out of the mainstream. It is about the NRA and the type of people who make it up.

Do you honestly believe that the majority of Americans are against banning the so-called "cop-killer" bullet? Do you?
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Cop killer bullets are a myth. Any type of bullet can kill a cop and many bullets besides the type you are referring to can penetrate "bullet-proof" vests.

Do you honestly believe that most Americans stand against a three day waiting period? An extensive background check?
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Uh......it was 5, not 3. And it is not whether "most Americans" are for or against it or not. The question is, is it constitutional. I oppose it. In today's age, background checks should be and are immediate.

The Democrats have caved on this issue and don't talk about, so have no fear. Your agenda, your gun agenda, is alive and well. Too bad we can't say the same for some of its victims, eh?
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Not all of them have "caved" and some are still pushing quite a bit of stuff I oppose. As to the victims, as always is the case when there is a tragedy of this magnitude, I have nothing but sorrow for them and their families. But banning guns simply wouldn't have stopped what happened. On a given day there are more alcohol/drunk driving related deaths in this country than there are gun related deaths. Using your logic we might as well ban drinking and ban driving an automobile (sober or drunk) while we are at it.
 
IHateGovernment said:
Did I say someone should shoot you? I am talking about that national meeting, where all the bigwigs gather for their big "vote".

No you didn't but I share many of the same opinions.

Why, its better the next one (for there will be a next one) should happen in a school again???

I think we should address other issues before turning to taking away people's rights. As Ornot pointed out as did Michael Moore they have plenty of Guns in Canada but this is much rarer. Canada doesn't have the sick culture that we do here. Can we legislatively change our culture? No. But perhaps the answer does not lie in laws or government action. Maybe the change has to lie with ourselves and how we treat our neighbors and raise our children.
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I don't think there is a simple answer, nor one answer. We can do both. There is no need for any sane society to have automatic weapons available. Sorry. People don't hunt with them. Unless their prey is of the human variety.
 
But I do have a problem with extremists who fight against any legislation, even against bullest designed to go through bullet proof vests! Whose sole purpose is to kill a human being. Mostly cops. To me, those people would greatly benefit from a bullet up the ass, but that is just my opinion, and I don't want to offend anybody.

I know I am an extremist when it comes to guns. (Funny thing is I don't know any.) But I want to address this issue since Darla you have come to know me as at the very least human. :)

So called cop killer bullets are a terrible thing when turned against our police who protect us. I know this sounds crazy but I 100% truthfully can say that I think there can be a situation where usage of these kinds of ammunition is warranted and recent events convince me even more.

One day perhaps soon we may have to fight our government and the soldiers of that government will be wearing body armor. Without that ammunition we will be at a disadvantage.

I know this sounds crazy but is it really that unreasonable when we have a leader who doesn't respect our constitutional rights and puts himself above the law and congressional and judicial checks on his power.

To me it isn't.
 
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