Aint it Great That We Have the Government Protecting Dogs From Cruelty

Damocles said:
They are not. When was the last time a lawsuit was filed in a civil court because the rights of the animal were violated. You can sue another because they harmed your animal, your property, just as you can with a car. That does not give the 'car' rights.

There are all sorts of laws about how you can use your property, in this case how you are allowed to damage it. Those are not any more rights than laws against speeding.
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Nit picking you brought the civil rights term in I was just taliking rights.
spin and confuse.
 
Damocles said:
They are not. When was the last time a lawsuit was filed in a civil court because the rights of the animal were violated. You can sue another because they harmed your animal, your property, just as you can with a car. That does not give the 'car' rights.

There are all sorts of laws about how you can use your property, in this case how you are allowed to damage it. Those are not any more rights than laws against speeding.
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Just spinning. If the dog has no rights how can the law arrest or punish you for harming it ?
 
doniston said:
Your point is a humdred years late. they are not dogs.
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I never said they were, about 150 years ago, however, African-Americans were considered property and had the same laws against inhumane treatment that you are calling "rights" here. They are not rights, as a person who suffered such indignity would tell you.

Thankfully we recognized their humanity, limited our government and actions according to their actual rights, no longer can they be considered property as dogs can, and later they fought for equal rights. Hopefully one day we will have that as well.
 
doniston said:
Only if they were Human, and covered by the constitution. Rights, ---Constitutional Rights, ---- Civil rights.---natural rights -----they are all rights, but are all differenet.
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Which is my point, those laws do no more to grant them rights than they grant rights to your car, or your neighbor's car because you can't just destroy it. They simply regulate your action in regard to your property, as many laws do.
 
Here, maybe this will help explain it to everybody:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights

Animal rights, also known as animal liberation, is the idea that the basic interests of non-human animals—for example, the interest in avoiding suffering—should be afforded the same consideration as the basic interests of human beings.[2] Animal rights advocates argue that animals should no longer be regarded as property, or treated as resources for human purposes, but should instead be regarded as legal persons[3] and members of the moral community.[4]

The idea of extending personhood to animals has the support of some senior legal scholars, including Alan Dershowitz[5] and Laurence Tribe of Harvard Law School,[3] and animal law courses are now taught in 89 out of 180 law schools in the United States.[6]The Seattle-based Great Ape Project is campaigning for the United Nations to adopt a Declaration on Great Apes, which would see gorillas, orangutans, chimpanzees and bonobos included in a "community of equals" with human beings, extending to them the protection of three basic interests: the right to life, the protection of individual liberty, and the prohibition of torture.[7] This is seen by an increasing number of animal rights lawyers as a first step toward granting rights to other animals.[8][9]
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If you will note, they recognize first that animals do not have rights, then they begin to make argument for why they should.

Currently, animals do not have rights. Animal Rights advocates argue to grant them rights, to allow nobody to own them as property, so forth.
 
I won't repost, I'll just redirect your attention to the post before doniston's two where legal scholars are arguing that we should grant rights to animals because they do not have them.

I will trust their opinion, they are the scholars.

And draw your attention again to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights
 
Damocles said:
Which is my point, those laws do no more to grant them rights than they grant rights to your car, or your neighbor's car because you can't just destroy it. They simply regulate your action in regard to your property, as many laws do.
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That is just plain stupid. the law could care less if you beat up or "Kill your car. (so long as you don't try to drive it later. )
 
doniston said:
That is just plain stupid. the law could care less if you beat up or "Kill your car. (so long as you don't try to drive it later. )
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However, if I beat up or "kill" your car you can sue me, just as you could for the maltreatment of your animal.

Have you made it to the wiki article that explains my position from those who actually fight for animal rights?

Legal scholars argue that they should get rights, not that they have them. They are far more educated on the subject than any of us.
 
This is also the reason I take the position I do, it is not specifically libertarian to think that animals can never be more than property.

If you go to the link you will find that this argument specifically has been going on for centuries, pretty much since people began to anthropomorphize animals, or to realize that they maybe should be considered for rights.
 
Battleborne said:
a registered ultra conservative 'American Independent' I lost the 'R' long ago...your comment as above is the reason...sorry free market does not always apply...especially when a market commodity(Vick in this case) breaks the laws of the land...carry on a carrying the water though!
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I specifcally and clearly said small r. Has little to do with the GOP.
 
Damocles said:
No, I am saying that before they were granted rights they were often treated the same, and in many cases worse than they were. Therefore I would again suggest you ask if laws against inhumane treatment are the same things as rights of a minority who had to actually suffer that indignity before their rights were recognized at all. Before this nation recognized the humanity of that minority, there were laws regulating humane treatment of your slaves, did this grant them rights or were they still property?

It is painfully obvious that you all are tap-dancing around the question because it makes it uncomfortable for your argument. The fact is, humans have rights, dogs are property. We have laws against inhumane treatment but they are not the same things as rights. It is foolish to attempt to compare the two.

You may argue that animals should have rights, as PETA does, and that we should not be allowed to own them at all. But arguing that cruelty laws are the same as rights is simply emoting all over the idea and lowering rights to any law whatsoever that may be passed.
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Exactly, but then I don't really see how you can justify the state's arbitrary violation of property rights.
 
RStringfield said:
Exactly, but then I don't really see how you can justify the state's arbitrary violation of property rights.
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Living things are a sketchy category of property, I suggest some leeway towards some government protection (i know, i know, what about livestock). I understand this is a form of libertarian zealotry for you, but we're always setting standards going forward, subhuman goyim.
 
I am fine with leeway for living things. What I am bothered by here is an arbitrary application controlled by government and abuse of the concept of rights.

The government is easily swayed by special interest and a majority of legislators or regulatory agencies can easily be won over by a vocal an empowered minority.

Why is horse racing legal or rodeos? Why is dog racing legal? Tens of thousands of dogs are killed every year as pups because they don't measure up or once they are past their racing days, about 4 years. These remain legal because there is big money in them.
 
RStringfield said:
I am fine with leeway for living things. What I am bothered by here is an arbitrary application controlled by government and abuse of the concept of rights.

The government is easily swayed by special interest and a majority of legislators or regulatory agencies can easily be won over by a vocal an empowered minority.

Why is horse racing legal or rodeos? Why is dog racing legal? Tens of thousands of dogs are killed every year as pups because they don't measure up or once they are past their racing days, about 4 years. These remain legal because there is big money in them.
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Maybe they shouldn't be.
 
http://www.lyrics007.com/Guns%20N'%20Roses%20Lyrics/Welcome%20To%20The%20Jungle%20Lyrics.html
Title: Guns N' Roses - Welcome To The Jungle lyrics

Artist: Guns N' Roses


Welcome to the jungle
We got fun 'n' games
We got everything you want
Honey we know the names
We are the people that can find
Whatever you may need
If you got the money honey
We got your disease


Chorus:


In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your shun n,n,n,n,,n,n,,n,n,n,,n,n,,n knees, knees
I wanna watch you bleed


Welcome to the jungle
We take it day by day
If you want it you're gonna bleed
But it's the price you pay
And you're a very sexy girl
That's very hard to please
You can taste the bright lights
But you won't get them for free
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Feel my, my, my serpentine
I, I wanna hear you scream


Welcome to the jungle
It gets worse here everyday
Ya learn ta live like an animal
In the jungle where we play
If you got a hunger for what you see
You'll take it eventually
You can have anything you want
But you better not take it from me


Chorus


And when you're high you never
Ever want to come down, so down, so down, so down YEAH!


You know where you are
You're in the jungle baby
You're gonna die
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your shu n,n,n,,n,n,,n,n,n,,n,n,,n,n,,n knees, knees
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Feel my, my, my serpentine
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your shun n,n,n,n,,n,n,,n,n,,n,n,,n.n, knees, knees
In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your
It's gonna bring you down!
Ha!
 
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