Air Traffic Controllers Warned US Army Helicopter Ahead Of Crash

[Hawkeye10]

Tanner Glass

@TannerGlass77


Two Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority employees were arrested for allegedly leaking footage of the recent helicopter and plane crash to CNN. They were charged with computer trespass for making an unauthorized copy of records

https://twitter.com/x/status/1886653964516520386

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The citizens still having no right to know.

 

[Into the Night]

If you were a pilot, you'd know that there's the PIC and the co-pilot, but both are pilots. In this case, the male pilot, the CWO2, was the instructor pilot evaluating the Captain as she was flying with night vision goggles. IDK if the CWO was also on NVGs or not. The investigation will reveal those facts. The investigation will also reveal the Army procedures in this case. Specifically who was the Helicopter Aircraft Commander in that situation.

You, putting all the blame on the Captain, only serves to prove you have no fucking clue on what you are posting about.

Paradox. Irrational. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox, Sybil.

 

[Into the Night]

I get it. Collision avoidance holds the absolute highest priority. One ring to rule them all.


Avoiding that collision had the highest priority in DCA airspace.

No, you cannot blame ATC's screwup on the airline pilot. He had highest priority in that airspace. No fault lies with that crew.

Watch closely to political commentary.

Heh. We always do!

You will be able to denote those who come into the conversation from the left by noting how they deemphasize this very point, or by wording that minimizes job proficiency.

Heh. That's already happening right here on JPP! It's happening on other forums too, including climate-debate.

Correct. Captain Rebecca Lobach was always required to control her helicopter and the controller was always required to prevent the collision.

She had lowest priority in that airspace, AND was operating VFR. That makes all the difference.

She might have been operating under a misunderstanding of which she was entirely clear and certain.

I completely agree.

We have to assume such because she didn't ask for any clarification.

She should have, but I have found a lot of pilots won't, even though they should. I do.

I don't see how that was possible if she was not aware of the AA flight on which she was heading.

She should've been. That's rather the whole point of VFR.

You can't say "she should have been aware of that for which she was not aware

Yes I can, because she should've been more aware. HOWEVER, there may have been a distraction in the helicopter cockpit at a critical moment. Since it was a qualification flight, a conversation with another crew member may have started at a bad time. This kind of distraction is quite common. The two flight recorders from that aircraft will reveal possible distractions, if any.

and not warned by the ATC responsible for warning her.

This is the stronger factor. ATC screwed up. The radar plot and the audio tapes properly correlated with it, along with controller logs will help resolve why this happened. At the least, issuing vague 'advisories' contributed to confusion, and ultimately, the crash.

Captain Rebecca Lobach did not ignore any warnings or violate any regulations. She was simply unaware.

As a VFR pilot, she is SUPPOSED to be aware. As a transiting aircraft, she is SUPPOSED to be aware she had lowest priority in any of that airspace.

You can argue that you think she should have been aware,

The FAA regulations argue this.

but then we come right back to the controller who simply did not bring the imminent collision to her attention.

...and is the bigger factor.

My hope is that this collision stamps the final period at the end of the DEI experiment story. Pete Hegseth, I salute you.

You are letting your politics into this. Not necessary. While I share your disdain for DEI, and it SHOULD be removed from all federal agencies and as many private companies as possible, the NTSB isn't interested in politics here. They have to provide a complete report of all the factors that went into this crash. They have to reference regulations, logs, flight recorders, and ALL the evidence that results in their conclusion. Part of this will be analyzing whether the HELO4 corridor should remain closed permanently.

That report cannot use DEI as an excuse nor as a reason to alter their conclusion.

Every controller working the DCA tower must be certified not only as an air traffic controller, but also for that position they are controlling. This is done by the supervisor and another controller already familiar with that airspace.

Working DCA is no picnic. This heavily congested airspace is constantly seeing landings, ground operations, take-offs, transiting traffic, etc. It also have to deal with some very nasty weather conditions from time to time, old equipment breaking down, a few bozo pilots, wildlife including birds, etc.

They earn every dollar they earn!

But this time a major screwup occurred. The controller at that position conducted the screwup (two events) which resulted in the loss of 60+ lives. That controller is immediately decertified. That is automatic.

I feel sorry for the guy. I really doubt the NTSB report will be favorable to him, and he's going to have to live with the realization that 60+ people died under his watch for the rest of his life.

 

[IBDaMann]

I think the bulk of the blame is going to be on how the airspace is organized and ATCs failure to issue proper advisories and maintain proper separation of traffic.

Yes, this is how I envision the "Conclusion" will be worded. I maintain my prediction that mistakes of both pilots will be ferreted out and mentioned, even if they are absolutely trivial, and will follow the word "Although ..." and will be followed by the word "Nontheless, ..." and the report will expound upon what you have written here above.

The of course won't stop the gaslighting against the pilot by the clueless here on JPP. Any responsibility by the helicopter pilot is really rather minimal, but NOT zero.

Sure. My focus is not on attempting to revise history and to erase any mistakes made by Captain Rebecca Lobach. My focus is on the responsability to control the airspace and to prevent the collision. As a pilot, Captain Rebecca Lobach had a role in the DCA, but it was not to control it.

He made no mistake.

Hold on. Captain Jonathan Campos did not deviate from correct procedure as far as anyone can tell from the audio. This does not mean that the NTSB won't discover that he made some trivial, inconsequential mistake that they will identify in the course of being thorough. I bet that the NTSB finds something, dismisses it and clears him immediately right up front.

American Airlines need not alter anything.

I get it, they don't *NEED* to alter anything ... but they will. They will add this collision scenario into their training, if only to mention it for pilots and aircrews to have on their minds.

The pilot had absolute priority in that airspace as landing IFR traffic. All landing procedures were being followed.

Yep. There is no doubt there.

NTSB investigations are not elections or politics. Their reports have to show the source of all of their evidence

The technical word for this is "provenance." Everything written has to trace back to the souce that "proves" it. It all absolutely must be there.

I know what goes into an NTSB investigation and report. They can't impose the politics you think they can and get away with it.

Put Chuck Schumer in charge of the report.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes, this is how I envision the "Conclusion" will be worded. I maintain my prediction that mistakes of both pilots will be ferreted out and mentioned, even if they are absolutely trivial, and will follow the word "Although ..." and will be followed by the word "Nontheless, ..." and the report will expound upon what you have written here above.

That won't wash in court. It won't wash with pilots, ATC, or other airport personnel or lawyers either.

Sure. My focus is not on attempting to revise history and to erase any mistakes made by Captain Rebecca Lobach.

Yet you seemed to be trying to do just that (until now!).

My focus is on the responsability to control the airspace and to prevent the collision.

That is up to the VFR pilots using the airspace, ATC controlling that airspace. It is NOT the responsibility of IFR traffic to see and avoid. They often CAN'T see!

As a pilot, Captain Rebecca Lobach had a role in the DCA, but it was not to control it.

She is responsible for allowing herself to become unaware of her surroundings. Whether that was caused by a distraction in the helicopter cockpit remains to be seen. She is responsible for knowing the traffic pattern around the airport she was transiting. Yes...she controls her own airspace AND must take steps to prevent incursion on airspace of higher priority traffic, such as a landing airline.

BTW, this distraction (if any) could've itself been caused by a conversation with her instructor about the vague crappy 'advisory' from ATC.

Hold on. Captain Jonathan Campos did not deviate from correct procedure as far as anyone can tell from the audio.

Never said he did.

This does not mean that the NTSB won't discover that he made some trivial, inconsequential mistake that they will identify in the course of being thorough.

True, but remember he was IFR AND landing traffic. He has absolute priority.

I bet that the NTSB finds something, dismisses it and clears him immediately right up front.

If they find something, they can't dismiss it.

I get it, they don't *NEED* to alter anything ... but they will.

That's perjury, and easily proven. The NTSB is not that stupid.

They will add this collision scenario into their training, if only to mention it for pilots and aircrews to have on their minds.

There was no 'collision scenario'. The airline was IFR and landing traffic. He owns all of the airspace between him and that runway and the runway itself. He has exclusive access to those resources. NO OTHER AIRCRAFT may legally incur on his resources.

Yep. There is no doubt there.

You politics is affecting you again.

The technical word for this is "provenance." Everything written has to trace back to the souce that "proves" it. It all absolutely must be there.

Those sources are not political sources.

Put Chuck Schumer in charge of the report.

He is not trained for it. He wouldn't know what to do.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Paradox. Irrational. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox, Sybil.

You can't name my alleged socks after you claimed you could, son.

 

[IBDaMann]

No, you cannot blame ATC's screwup on the airline pilot.

I'm not blaming any pilot.

She had lowest priority in that airspace, AND was operating VFR. That makes all the difference.

It actually makes no difference. Yes, the controller ceased to provide that service but he was not absolved of his responsibility. The helicopter's collision course was DCA's top priority at that moment.

Yes I can, because she should've been more aware.

That pulls you into a subjunctive fallacy. Could'a-Should'a-Would'a. Since she was unaware, it doesn't matter what she could'a-should'a-would'a been aware. You have to go with what was the case.

HOWEVER, there may have been a distraction in the helicopter cockpit at a critical moment.

Yes. There may have been any combination of limitless possibilities, which can happen to any pilot on any flight.

Since it was a qualification flight, a conversation with another crew member may have started at a bad time. This kind of distraction is quite common. The two flight recorders from that aircraft will reveal possible distractions, if any.

I hope so.

This is the stronger factor. ATC screwed up. The radar plot and the audio tapes properly correlated with it, along with controller logs will help resolve why this happened. At the least, issuing vague 'advisories' contributed to confusion, and ultimately, the crash.

Just so we're clear, I'm not looking to bury anyone; I'm looking to bury DEI. My hope is that something good can come out of this tragedy, i.e. an immortalized understanding of why we should never fill jobs based on anything other than merit. My belief is that the NTSB will study past occurrences and see a pattern of low standards and deviations from even those. My hope is that "low standards" will also be highlighted in the final report, along with hopefully menion of need for more training and greater proficiency.

As a VFR pilot, she is SUPPOSED to be aware.

Nobody can just "be aware" of everything.

The FAA regulations argue this.

Not that I have found. I have never seen any subjunctive argument in any FAA document.

While I share your disdain for DEI, and it SHOULD be removed from all federal agencies and as many private companies as possible, the NTSB isn't interested in politics here.

But they must look at standards and training. That is what I want, and I don't want any of it overlooked for political reasons.

They have to provide a complete report of all the factors that went into this crash.

That is my hope. I don't want anything omitted for political purposes.

They have to reference regulations, logs, flight recorders, and ALL the evidence that results in their conclusion.

Anything can be omitted under sufficient political pressure. My hope is that the Trump Administration will ensure nothing is omitted.

That report cannot use DEI as an excuse nor as a reason to alter their conclusion.

The report can cite training and competency deficiencies.

Every controller working the DCA tower must be certified not only as an air traffic controller, but also for that position they are controlling.

The standards for that certification were lowered.

Working DCA is no picnic. This heavily congested airspace is constantly seeing landings, ground operations, take-offs, transiting traffic, etc. It also have to deal with some very nasty weather conditions from time to time, old equipment breaking down, a few bozo pilots, wildlife including birds, etc.

Total agreement. NOTE: I used to be a BASH (Bird Air Strike Hazard) officer as a side duty. Birds are fuqkers.

They earn every dollar they earn!

I know what you meant to say. Yes.

But this time a major screwup occurred. The controller at that position conducted the screwup (two events) which resulted in the loss of 60+ lives. That controller is immediately decertified. That is automatic.

I feel bad for the guy; he didn't wake up that morning thinking "I'm gonna kill me some passengers today." He must be going through hell. Nonetheless, somebody needs to assess whether he should continue being an ATC and whether he ever should have been allowed to be one.

I don't really disagree with you on anything substantive. I am probably guilty of confusing various items by shifting to DEI without warning. Let's just get rid of it and never have these semantic issues again, and cut down drastically on passenger/commuter deaths.

 

[IBDaMann]

That's perjury, and easily proven. The NTSB is not that stupid.

You confused lines of commentary. There is no perjury in altering one's training.

There was no 'collision scenario'.

One just occurred. 67 people died.

I was discussing AA and DoD training and you were still on the NTSB investigation.

 

[Into the Night]

You can't name my alleged socks after you claimed you could, son.

I already have, Sybil.

 

[Into the Night]

I'm not blaming any pilot.

I am, but only partially. It matters little now to her. She's dead.

It actually makes no difference.

Yes it does.

Yes, the controller ceased to provide that service but he was not absolved of his responsibility. The helicopter's collision course was DCA's top priority at that moment.

The controller never ceased service to any aircraft. He just failed to provide proper advisories.

That pulls you into a subjunctive fallacy.

Fallacy fallacy. No subjunctive.

Could'a-Should'a-Would'a.

Nope. The regulations are quite clear on line of authority.

Since she was unaware, it doesn't matter what she could'a-should'a-would'a been aware. You have to go with what was the case.

Irrelevant. She should've been aware. That's part of the regulations concerning VFR flight.

Yes. There may have been any combination of limitless possibilities, which can happen to any pilot on any flight.

That it can.

Just so we're clear, I'm not looking to bury anyone;

Rather pointless, since 60+ people will be buried.

I'm looking to bury DEI.

Works for me! It's time for this institutionalized racism to end. It should never have started.

My hope is that something good can come out of this tragedy, i.e. an immortalized understanding of why we should never fill jobs based on anything other than merit. My belief is that the NTSB will study past occurrences and see a pattern of low standards and deviations from even those. My hope is that "low standards" will also be highlighted in the final report, along with hopefully menion of need for more training and greater proficiency.

They will study patterns alright. Patterns of airspace incursions at DCA, particularly concerning the HELO4 corridor, patterns of hiring and certifying practices at DCA, patterns of supervision of ATC, patterns in military procedures concerning training flights, etc.

Nobody can just "be aware" of everything.

It is the responsibility of any VFR pilot to be aware of the traffic patterns of the airport you are transiting through, and to be aware of aircraft in your vicinity. This responsibility is spelled out in the FAA regulations.

It is also the responsibility of the ATC operator to be aware of closing proximity of aircraft and to issue properly worded traffic advisories and traffic avoidance advisories, and to keep ANY traffic from incurring on airspace in use by an IFR flight through the use of properly worded advisories. This responsibility is ALSO spelled out in the FAA regulations.

Not that I have found. I have never seen any subjunctive argument in any FAA document.

Part 91.

But they must look at standards and training.

They will.

That is what I want, and I don't want any of it overlooked for political reasons.

Submitting a report that uses politics for any conclusion is perjury, and easily proven. The NTSB is not that stupid.

That is my hope. I don't want anything omitted for political purposes.

Rest assured. That's the last thing the NTSB wants.

Anything can be omitted under sufficient political pressure. My hope is that the Trump Administration will ensure nothing is omitted.

Don't see why Trump would.

The report can cite training and competency deficiencies.

It very well may do just that.

The standards for that certification were lowered.

Quite possible. The NTSB will look at that, too.

Total agreement. NOTE: I used to be a BASH (Bird Air Strike Hazard) officer as a side duty. Birds are fuqkers.

Yup. Seagulls are among the worst. They are large and stupid.

Birds do at least have common habits around anything else that flies, particularly anything that isn't an eagle or hawk. If in the air, they will tend to dive to get away. That's the fastest way to build speed. If on the ground, they will take flight (possibly into an approaching aircraft) if that aircraft is too close above them. Birds in general tend to really underestimate just how fast aircraft is.

Hawks will pester ultralights and even model aircraft, since they are very territorial.

I feel bad for the guy; he didn't wake up that morning thinking "I'm gonna kill me some passengers today." He must be going through hell.

I'm sure he is.

Nonetheless, somebody needs to assess whether he should continue being an ATC and whether he ever should have been allowed to be one.

The NTSB will determine that as well.

I don't really disagree with you on anything substantive. I am probably guilty of confusing various items by shifting to DEI without warning. Let's just get rid of it and never have these semantic issues again, and cut down drastically on passenger/commuter deaths.

DEI has no place in aviation or elsewhere. It can certainly cause dangerous situations with aircraft, with ships, even with trucks and buses. It can cause dangerous situations in repair shops, particularly aircraft repair, since not paying attention to proper procedure can maim or even kill another mechanic AND allow shoddy work out the door AGAIN putting passengers and pilots at risk. I see DEI in aircraft maintenance facilities as well. It's very dangerous.

 

[Into the Night]

You confused lines of commentary. There is no perjury in altering one's training.

Contextomy fallacy. I am referring to the NTSB investigation and why it's report takes the form it does.

One just occurred. 67 people died.

Not a collision scenario. A collision. Don't try word games.

I was discussing AA and DoD training and you were still on the NTSB investigation.

I was still on the NTSB investigation since that was the subject of discussion.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I already have, Sybil.

Where, son? I've never seen it.