Air Traffic Controllers Warned US Army Helicopter Ahead Of Crash

[Hawkeye10]

Exactly, whereas you should have seen that the controller had issued an urgent collision warning and an urgent course correction. Instead, as you noted, you saw nothing.

How much experience does this controller have?

How many hours a week has this controller been working.

What is the reputation of this controller?

Was this controller hired on sound practices? Were there any shortcuts?



I dont know that there was anything wrong with this controller other than over work....which is the agencies fault more than his.

 

[IBDaMann]

True. However, since the helicopter WAS operating VFR at the time, Capt. Lobach is also responsible for failing to maintain her own navigation and separation.

Unfortunately, you run into the logical problem of the American Airlines CRJ700 pilot, Captain Jonathan Campos, also failed to maintain separation. He wasn't flying VFR, but as the pilot, he should not have simply continued flying into the helicopter just because he had clearance to do so.

The moment you try to shift control blame onto a pilot, you go down a complex rabbit hole. Nonetheless, the first thing I would do if I were Trump would be to ensure the investigating team is not loaded with Trump-HATERs, or else pilot error will be the guaranteed result and DEI hires will be given a total pass.

This is the directive to change course, usually followed by IMMEDIATELY. If a pilot receives this, maneuver first, THEN acknowledge ATC. You are literally seconds from disaster.

Correct again. You are on a roll. USDOT FAA JO Order 7110.65W covers this in 3−1−2. PREVENTIVE CONTROL

Provide preventive control service only to aircraft operating in accordance with a letter of agreement. When providing this service, issue advice or instructions only if a situation develops which requires corrective action. NOTE−1. Preventive control differs from other airport traffic control in that repetitious, routine approval of pilot action is eliminated. Controllers intervene only when they observe a traffic conflict developing.

 

[IBDaMann]

By the audio I heard, the controller did not make any errors.

Listen to that audio again. Notice that there was no collision warning. Notice that there was no course correction instruction.

The controller failed utterly.

 

[IBDaMann]

I dont know that there was anything wrong with this controller other than over work....which is the agencies fault more than his.

If you are saying that the ATC staff is also to blame in all this, fine. You might very well be correct.

 

[EdwinA]

Too funny. You consider economics to be ideological rubbish.

Too funny; you think ideological rubbish is 'economics'. It isn't.

How much should we tax capitalism and thermodynamics in order to save the planet from Climate Change?

So now I'm supposed to be a climate change cultist, cuz you appointed yourself as a Thought Police guy on the innernetz.

You are an economics-challenged Marxist. Ask me how I know.

I don;t need to ask, you know what your peer group decides you need to parrot, same as the commies do. That's why we know there isn't dime's worth a difference between Right and Left.

Vance has the 2028 election locked; it's his to lose.

Yes, and if the Trump admin doesn't put a brake on his Party's most hair-brained class warfare ideas, the GOP will lose as always. He's already fucked up with the H1-B visa scam.

Too funny. Into the Night just gave you a real world counterexample and you just tipped your king.

Too funny how you morons alwasy pronounce yourselves 'winners' when all you do is babble nonsense and create strawmen.

And, personal anecdotes aren't 'wins', they're just bullshit.

 

[EdwinA]

I have seen nothing on the controller....what do you know?

Some were claiming the radars were incorrectly reporting the helicopter's real height; others are claiming that info isn't true.

And so it goes.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Listen to that audio again. Notice that there was no collision warning. Notice that there was no course correction instruction.

The controller failed utterly.

the helo was directed to FOLLOW behind the jet................that is all that's necessary. I've seen controllers do less and experience no issues or reprimands.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I think we have a pretty good idea what the JPP membership thinks.....Lets see what the experts say.....what is done.

One hopes it will make at least a little sense.

We dont get much of that.

 

[IBDaMann]

Too funny; you think ideological rubbish is 'economics'. It isn't.

Economics isn't an ideology. You should learn it.

So now I'm supposed to be a climate change cultist,

You EVADED the question. How much do we need to tax fossil fuels, capitalism, physics and general happiness in order to save the planet from Climate Change?

I don;t need to ask,

At least that matter is settled.

Yes, and if the Trump admin doesn't put a brake on his Party's most hair-brained class warfare ideas,

You really should pay attention next time. It's not about Republicans anymore. It's about MAGA. No brakes are needed.

the GOP will lose as always.

MAGA hasn't lost yet.

Too funny how you morons alwasy pronounce yourselves 'winners' [after I forfeit]

FTFY.

And, personal anecdotes aren't 'wins', they're just bullshit.

I always go with my personal experiences. If they happen to falsify your WACKY, hairbrained argument then you should reconsider your WACKY, hairbrained argument.

 

[IBDaMann]

the helo was directed to FOLLOW behind the jet................that is all that's necessary.

This is the fatal error of your argument. It wasn't all that was necessary. The Air Traffic Controller's manual specifies what is necessary and not all that was necessary was performed. There was no collision warning, the main responsibility of controller. There was no course correction issued, a crucial function of the controller's main mission, i.e. prevent collisions.

The controller failed egregiously, per the FAA's Air Traffic Controller's manual.

I've seen controllers do less and experience no issues or reprimands.

I'm not buying your claim of expertise. You are currently working double-time to throw out the FAA's Air Traffic Controller's manual. Your argument is summarily dismissed and you are revealed as having a TDS-driven political agenda.

 

[IBDaMann]

the helo was directed to FOLLOW behind the jet..

Right, you listened to the audio again and you still did not hear any collision warning or any course correction. There is only one valid conclusion, i.e. the controller was asleep at the wheel and totally screwed up.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

This is the fatal error of your argument. It wasn't all that was necessary. The Air Traffic Controller's manual specifies what is necessary and not all that was necessary was performed. There was no collision warning, the main responsibility of controller. There was no course correction issued, a crucial function of the controller's main mission, i.e. prevent collisions.

The controller failed egregiously, per the FAA's Air Traffic Controller's manual.


I'm not buying your claim of expertise. You are currently working double-time to throw out the FAA's Air Traffic Controller's manual. Your argument is summarily dismissed and you are revealed as having a TDS-driven political agenda.

your biased opinion is clouding any judgement you might have. I don't care about you buying my claim of expertise. I know what I did for 6 years as a Marine. you may continue your useless ranting

 

[IBDaMann]

your biased opinion is clouding any judgement you might have.

The FAA's Air Traffic Controller manual is not my opinion. Your rejection of the FAA's Air Traffic Controller manual is your political agenda to support DEI hires and to spite Trump.

I don't care about you buying my claim of expertise.

Yes you do. You wouldn't have made the claim if you weren't relying on it.

I know what I did for 6 years as a Marine.

You claim to be a Marine yet you dismiss regulations. Do you think I'm the only one who see the problem here? GO ARMY!

 

[Into the Night]

well, you are entitled to be wrong.

That won't work, dude.

 

[Into the Night]

if you were never an Air Traffic Controller, then how would you know?

The regulations. RQAA. I am also a pilot and deal with ATC regularly.

 

[Into the Night]

He did not tell the copter to get into its approved airspace....what was the other one?

Not ordering the copter to stop when there was no course correction?

The helicopter was in the approved airspace.

 

[Into the Night]

More rubbish, can't face facts.

Random phrases. No apparent coherency.

More rubbish. Limiting owner liabilty and personal responsibility is the whole point of incorporating, creating a fictional persona tp protect the owners from their own bad decisions.

A corporation is not fascism. Pivot fallacy.

lol more nonsense; can't face reality, needs strawmen.

Fallacy fallacy. I don't use strawmen.

More fallacy fallacies.

Random phrase. No apparent coherency. Denial of logic.

More desperate nonsense. Corporations conspire to drive down wages via non compete agreements; few ever get taken to court for their market rigging.

Still have on idea how price discovery works, do ya?

More deflection. REpublicns never did much to prevent it, mostly they supported it.

Blatant lie.

You're the moron; you think corporations are for free markets n stuff.

That's exactly what they support, just like any business.

They aren't, they loves them some Red Chinese commies and slave labor.

Corporations are not China. Redefinition fallacy. It is DEMOCRATS that want slavery. Inversion fallacy.

You mean the ones you don;t like. Not the same thing. There isn't a dime's worth of difference between the organization of a socialist govt. and a big corporation.

A corporation is not government. Redefinition fallacy.

They're both the same mentality.

A corporation is not government.

Few on the Right ever demand doing away with limited liability scam.

Not a scam.

except a few genuine libertarians who know what it is and why the Founders severely limited the privilege.

You don't get to speak for the dead, it is not a privilege, and it is not a limited. Anyone who wants to can form a corporation.

 

[Into the Night]

your biased opinion is clouding any judgement you might have. I don't care about you buying my claim of expertise. I know what I did for 6 years as a Marine. you may continue your useless ranting

You consider the regulations a 'biased opinion'???????

I am convinced you were never an air traffic controller.

 

[Into the Night]

How much experience does this controller have?

Irrelevant. He certified for the position.

How many hours a week has this controller been working.

It's a full time job, Hawk.

What is the reputation of this controller?

Irrelevant. He certified for the position.

Was this controller hired on sound practices? Were there any shortcuts?

Unknown. Trump did not blame the accident on DEI.

I dont know that there was anything wrong with this controller other than over work....which is the agencies fault more than his.

What 'over work'???

 

[Into the Night]

Unfortunately, you run into the logical problem of the American Airlines CRJ700 pilot, Captain Jonathan Campos, also failed to maintain separation. He wasn't flying VFR, but as the pilot, he should not have simply continued flying into the helicopter just because he had clearance to do so.

No, you don't into any such problem. The airline pilot was flying on IFR. He was properly cleared for the approach and landing.

The moment you try to shift control blame onto a pilot, you go down a complex rabbit hole.

Not at all. The regulations are quite clear about chain of authority.

Nonetheless, the first thing I would do if I were Trump would be to ensure the investigating team is not loaded with Trump-HATERs, or else pilot error will be the guaranteed result and DEI hires will be given a total pass.

The NTSB is slow, but they are thorough. They know their final conclusion is going to be used in a load of lawsuits. Don't expect their conclusion for about a year.

Correct again. You are on a roll. USDOT FAA JO Order 7110.65W covers this in 3−1−2. PREVENTIVE CONTROL

Provide preventive control service only to aircraft operating in accordance with a letter of agreement. When providing this service, issue advice or instructions only if a situation develops which requires corrective action. NOTE−1. Preventive control differs from other airport traffic control in that repetitious, routine approval of pilot action is eliminated. Controllers intervene only when they observe a traffic conflict developing.

Heh. I *am* a pilot, after all, and deal with ATC regularly. If ATC gives me the vague kind of crap they gave the helicopter pilot, I ask them to use proper phraseology and to give me proper traffic advisories.

I am the final authority for the safe operation of my aircraft. I've questioned ATC several times, including some of the clearances they've given me! I've had them try to clear me onto a runway with landing traffic, etc. I get on their case for that kind of crap! I've had them try to make a descent through known icing conditions, which I rejected. I've had them try to set up an instrument approach from INSIDE the outer marker (not valid!). I've had them try to clear me to land a runway that was occupied and was forced to go around.

ATC screws up. You have to cross check 'em, even when IFR (pretty common in Seattle!). Most airline pilots will do the same.

Fortunately, runway incursions caused by ATC are improving, thanks to the FAA finally recognizing the running problem with this!