Air Traffic Controllers Warned US Army Helicopter Ahead Of Crash

[Into the Night]

Right, you listened to the audio again and you still did not hear any collision warning or any course correction. There is only one valid conclusion, i.e. the controller was asleep at the wheel and totally screwed up.

Not so much asleep at the wheel, but careless in his operating procedure, causing confusion. I doubt the NTSB conclusion is going to go well for the controller(s) involved. Yes...that includes the supervisor.

I imagine they will also place some blame on the helicopter pilot, but since she did not survive the crash, it's makes little difference, other than causing the military to possibly adjust their qualification and training procedures.

I have found the NTSB investigations and conclusions to be pretty free of political bias. At the least, the report will have significant value.

 

[Into the Night]

your biased opinion is clouding any judgement you might have.

You consider the regulations a 'biased opinion' and 'clouding judgement'??????????

I don't care about you buying my claim of expertise. I know what I did for 6 years as a Marine. you may continue your useless ranting

You obviously do, since you keep trying to claim an expertise you obviously don't have.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

my my my, look at all the expert air traffic controllers we have these days............

 

[Taichiliberal]

the helo was directed to FOLLOW behind the jet................that is all that's necessary. I've seen controllers do less and experience no issues or reprimands.

Is this yet another one of your job history "expert" opinions? My, my, how old are you? I ask because anyone who has experienced your drivel over the years knows you've claimed "expertise" via experience on more than one subject. Takes a lot of years to have all those jobs, n'cest pas?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The regulations. RQAA. I am also a pilot and deal with ATC regularly.

No doubt from 37,000' in your Gulfstream V. Awesome!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Not so much asleep at the wheel, but careless in his operating procedure, causing confusion. I doubt the NTSB conclusion is going to go well for the controller(s) involved. Yes...that includes the supervisor.

I imagine they will also place some blame on the helicopter pilot, but since she did not survive the crash, it's makes little difference, other than causing the military to possibly adjust their qualification and training procedures.

I have found the NTSB investigations and conclusions to be pretty free of political bias. At the least, the report will have significant value.

A real pilot would know there were two pilots aboard PAT 25, son.

 

[IBDaMann]

No, you don't into any such problem. The airline pilot was flying on IFR. He was properly cleared for the approach and landing.

This is exactly my point. The moment you attempt to place blame on one pilot for the collision, you either have to blame the other pilot equally (which is absurd) or you end up absolving the other pilot for having been "properly cleared" by the controller, i.e. showing that the controller is ultimately controlling authority responsible for controlling the traffic, which returns the blame right back to the controller.

Not at all. The regulations are quite clear about chain of authority.

The regulations are quite clear about charge of responsibility.

The NTSB is slow, but they are thorough. They know their final conclusion is going to be used in a load of lawsuits. Don't expect their conclusion for about a year.

I remember being surprised to learn that there are air mishap specialists who have a keen talent for reconstructing event details. I got a presentation by one of them about the job and all the training that goes into such a position ... on top of having to be a thoroughly accomplished pilot across many airframes.

It was eye-opening.

Heh. I *am* a pilot, after all, and deal with ATC regularly.

Yep, and as you follow their instructions, they assume full responsibility to follow regulations. You are trusting them to follow the regulations and procedures for which they assume responsibility. Regardless of your choice to fly VFR or IFR, the ATC responsibility to prevent collisions does not vanish, and if you somehow don't see that you are on a potential collision course, ATC needs to advise you, and you trust them to do so. If you choose to fly VFR, there is no implicit "don't notify me of potential collisions."

If ATC gives me the vague kind of crap they gave the helicopter pilot, I ask them to use proper phraseology and to give me proper traffic advisories.

However, if you don't realize that you and ATC are not on the same page, but you are certain you are, and you think everything is AOK, you won't ask for any clarification of anything. Nonetheless, the tower still has full responsibility to alert you to that potential misunderstanding. If you are on a collision course, the controller's priority is to warn you, even if you had previously "confirmed" everything as being absolutely stupendous.

I am the final authority for the safe operation of my aircraft.

Absolutely ... and you have no magical superpowers to transform a dangerous reality into the safe reality you might misunderstand it to be. You don't have any power to control other aircraft. You can only control your aircraft. ATC's job is to control multiple aircraft in a given airspace. Captain Rebecca Lobach was in complete control of her aircraft, however that was insufficient to prevent the American Airlines flight from flying into her.

If the controller had instructed Captain Rebecca Lobach to alter course, per their requirement to do so, it is fair to assume that she would have done so.

I've questioned ATC several times, including some of the clearances they've given me! I've had them try to clear me onto a runway with landing traffic, etc. I get on their case for that kind of crap! I've had them try to make a descent through known icing conditions, which I rejected. I've had them try to set up an instrument approach from INSIDE the outer marker (not valid!). I've had them try to clear me to land a runway that was occupied and was forced to go around.

Every pilot with whom I speak has his long list of such stories. Suffice to say that ATC is a demanding job for which we cannot settle for DEI hires.

ATC screws up. You have to cross check 'em, even when IFR (pretty common in Seattle!). Most airline pilots will do the same.

Granted.

Fortunately, runway incursions caused by ATC are improving, thanks to the FAA finally recognizing the running problem with this!

Good news is always welcome.

 

[EdwinA]

Random phrases. No apparent coherency.

A corporation is not fascism. Pivot fallacy.

Fallacy fallacy. I don't use strawmen.

Random phrase. No apparent coherency. Denial of logic.

Still have on idea how price discovery works, do ya?

Blatant lie.

That's exactly what they support, just like any business.

Corporations are not China. Redefinition fallacy. It is DEMOCRATS that want slavery. Inversion fallacy.

A corporation is not government. Redefinition fallacy.

A corporation is not government.

Not a scam.

You don't get to speak for the dead, it is not a privilege, and it is not a limited. Anyone who wants to can form a corporation.

Repeating bullshit, as if that makes it true. More strawmen, more nonsense re how corporations behave, more fantasies about 'free markets'. The fact is right wingers love slavery s much as commies do. They loved hiring private armies to do their dirty work whenever they couldn't get govt. ones to do ti for them, and would do so again. 'Babbling about ' price discovery' is hilarious, though.

 

[IBDaMann]

Not so much asleep at the wheel, but careless in his operating procedure, causing confusion.

Sure. When I wrote my post, the idiom "asleep at the wheel" scored me three bonus points for saying a lot with only four words. I defer to your semantic refinement.

I doubt the NTSB conclusion is going to go well for the controller(s) involved. Yes...that includes the supervisor.

That's my read from the audio. The first thing that will be established is the extent to which the regulations were adhered. Every deviation will be highlighted and be entered directly into the conclusions.

Since the purpose of ATC is to prevent collisions, and since we're discussing a collision, every deviation of the regulations will be identified as "one of the causes." Both the audio and the ATC manual are publicly available, the NTSB's eventual findings shouldn't be much of a surprise ... [sigh] ... for conservatives because they don't have anyone doing their thinking for them and telling them to hold all controllers blameless because Trump is against DEI. I can predict right now that leftists will be up in arms over every finding of fault levelled against controllers who leftists have already come to consider DEI cause celebre.

Look for massive political effort to convert any mistake made by Captain Rebecca Lobach into the sole reason for blame for the collision. I'll call it right now.

I imagine they will also place some blame on the helicopter pilot, but since she did not survive the crash, it's makes little difference, other than causing the military to possibly adjust their qualification and training procedures.

I'm going to disagree with the first part of your assessment. I bet the findings will say something to the effect of "While there were some errors committed by both pilots ..." (yes, I'm betting they will find some mistake made by Captain Jonathan Campos of the American Airlines flight) "... the collision nonetheless resulted from a divergence of established ATC procedure." I agree that both DoD and American Airlines will alter their training, as a formality, but only to include such a scenario in the training which is already mature.

I have found the NTSB investigations and conclusions to be pretty free of political bias.

I had found American elections to be pretty free of theft.

At the least, the report will have significant value.

This is my hope.

 

[Into the Night]

No doubt from 37,000' in your Gulfstream V. Awesome!

You don't have a jet, Sybil.

 

[Into the Night]

A real pilot would know there were two pilots aboard PAT 25, son.

Just one, Sybil. The other is a co-pilot.

 

[IBDaMann]

my my my, look at all the expert air traffic controllers we have these days............

My, my, my, look at all the envious dropouts who now wish they had paid attention in school and actually graduated.

 

[Into the Night]

This is exactly my point. The moment you attempt to place blame on one pilot for the collision, you either have to blame the other pilot equally (which is absurd) or you end up absolving the other pilot for having been "properly cleared" by the controller, i.e. showing that the controller is ultimately controlling authority responsible for controlling the traffic, which returns the blame right back to the controller.

Your 'point' is ignoring regulations. IFR traffic has priority over VFR traffic. A landing aircraft has priority over a transiting aircraft. The helicopter pilot had the lowest priority of any aircraft in DCA airspace, was operating VFR, and is responsible for see and avoid.

The regulations are quite clear about charge of responsibility.


I remember being surprised to learn that there are air mishap specialists who have a keen talent for reconstructing event details. I got a presentation by one of them about the job and all the training that goes into such a position ... on top of having to be a thoroughly accomplished pilot across many airframes.

It was eye-opening.

It really is amazing the training these people go through.

Yep, and as you follow their instructions, they assume full responsibility to follow regulations. You are trusting them to follow the regulations and procedures for which they assume responsibility. Regardless of your choice to fly VFR or IFR, the ATC responsibility to prevent collisions does not vanish, and if you somehow don't see that you are on a potential collision course, ATC needs to advise you, and you trust them to do so. If you choose to fly VFR, there is no implicit "don't notify me of potential collisions."

I never said ATC responsibility vanishes. Neither does the responsibility of the helicopter pilot.

However, if you don't realize that you and ATC are not on the same page, but you are certain you are, and you think everything is AOK, you won't ask for any clarification of anything.

Frankly, I'm surprised the helicopter pilot did not call for a request for clarification.

Nonetheless, the tower still has full responsibility to alert you to that potential misunderstanding.

Never said it didn't.

If you are on a collision course, the controller's priority is to warn you, even if you had previously "confirmed" everything as being absolutely stupendous.

True. HOWEVER, a VFR pilot should also be aware of their surroundings, and request ATC to clarify a confusing 'advisory'.

Absolutely ... and you have no magical superpowers to transform a dangerous reality into the safe reality you might misunderstand it to be. You don't have any power to control other aircraft. You can only control your aircraft. ATC's job is to control multiple aircraft in a given airspace. Captain Rebecca Lobach was in complete control of her aircraft, however that was insufficient to prevent the American Airlines flight from flying into her.

YES IT IS.

If the controller had instructed Captain Rebecca Lobach to alter course, per their requirement to do so, it is fair to assume that she would have done so.

Capt. Lobach should have already been altering course BEFORE it became necessary for ATC to issue a traffic conflict advisory.

Every pilot with whom I speak has his long list of such stories. Suffice to say that ATC is a demanding job for which we cannot settle for DEI hires.

Very true. The more DEI hires at ATC, the more screwups there will be, and the more accidents resulting from them.

 

[Into the Night]

Repeating bullshit, as if that makes it true. More strawmen, more nonsense re how corporations behave, more fantasies about 'free markets'. The fact is right wingers love slavery s much as commies do. They loved hiring private armies to do their dirty work whenever they couldn't get govt. ones to do ti for them, and would do so again. 'Babbling about ' price discovery' is hilarious, though.

I didn't create the English language you choose to ignore.
Fallacy fallacy. Denial of logic.

The free market is no fantasy. It cannot be destroyed. It is immortal. You again shown you have no idea what 'price discovery' is.

You cannot blame Democrat desire for slavery on anybody else, moron.

 

[EdwinA]

I didn't create the English language you choose to ignore.
Fallacy fallacy. Denial of logic.

The free market is no fantasy. It cannot be destroyed. It is immortal. You again shown you have no idea what 'price discovery' is.

You cannot blame Democrat desire for slavery on anybody else, moron.

You again can't address anything I said, just talking to yourself again. Being a parrot for right wing nonsense makes you no different than left wing parrots, idiot.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You don't have a jet, Sybil.

Where do you park your Lambo when you fly your jet, son?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Just one, Sybil. The other is a co-pilot.

If you were a pilot, you'd know that there's the PIC and the co-pilot, but both are pilots. In this case, the male pilot, the CWO2, was the instructor pilot evaluating the Captain as she was flying with night vision goggles. IDK if the CWO was also on NVGs or not. The investigation will reveal those facts. The investigation will also reveal the Army procedures in this case. Specifically who was the Helicopter Aircraft Commander in that situation.

You, putting all the blame on the Captain, only serves to prove you have no fucking clue on what you are posting about.

 

[IBDaMann]

IFR traffic has priority over VFR traffic. A landing aircraft has priority over a transiting aircraft.

I get it. Collision avoidance holds the absolute highest priority. One ring to rule them all.

The helicopter pilot had the lowest priority of any aircraft in DCA airspace,

Avoiding that collision had the highest priority in DCA airspace.

It really is amazing the training these people go through.

Watch closely to political commentary. You will be able to denote those who come into the conversation from the left by noting how they deemphasize this very point, or by wording that minimizes job proficiency.

I never said ATC responsibility vanishes. Neither does the responsibility of the helicopter pilot.

Correct. Captain Rebecca Lobach was always required to control her helicopter and the controller was always required to prevent the collision.

Frankly, I'm surprised the helicopter pilot did not call for a request for clarification.

She might have been operating under a misunderstanding of which she was entirely clear and certain. We have to assume such because she didn't ask for any clarification.

Capt. Lobach should have already been altering course BEFORE it became necessary for ATC to issue a traffic conflict advisory.

I don't see how that was possible if she was not aware of the AA flight on which she was heading. You can't say "she should have been aware of that for which she was not aware and not warned by the ATC responsible for warning her." Captain Rebecca Lobach did not ignore any warnings or violate any regulations. She was simply unaware. You can argue that you think she should have been aware, but then we come right back to the controller who simply did not bring the imminent collision to her attention.

Very true. The more DEI hires at ATC, the more screwups there will be, and the more accidents resulting from them.

My hope is that this collision stamps the final period at the end of the DEI experiment story. Pete Hegseth, I salute you.

 

[Into the Night]

Sure. When I wrote my post, the idiom "asleep at the wheel" scored me three bonus points for saying a lot with only four words. I defer to your semantic refinement.

That's my read from the audio. The first thing that will be established is the extent to which the regulations were adhered. Every deviation will be highlighted and be entered directly into the conclusions.

Since the purpose of ATC is to prevent collisions, and since we're discussing a collision, every deviation of the regulations will be identified as "one of the causes." Both the audio and the ATC manual are publicly available, the NTSB's eventual findings shouldn't be much of a surprise ... [sigh] ... for conservatives because they don't have anyone doing their thinking for them and telling them to hold all controllers blameless because Trump is against DEI. I can predict right now that leftists will be up in arms over every finding of fault levelled against controllers who leftists have already come to consider DEI cause celebre.

Look for massive political effort to convert any mistake made by Captain Rebecca Lobach into the sole reason for blame for the collision. I'll call it right now.

I really doubt the NTSB is going to lay it all on the helicopter pilot. ALL regulations are in play here. Pilot regulations, ATC regulations, military training and qualification procedures, airport regulations, etc. It will conduct it's thorough investigation and issue a report of it's findings. I think the bulk of the blame is going to be on how the airspace is organized and ATCs failure to issue proper advisories and maintain proper separation of traffic.

The of course won't stop the gaslighting against the pilot by the clueless here on JPP. Any responsibility by the helicopter pilot is really rather minimal, but NOT zero.

I'm going to disagree with the first part of your assessment. I bet the findings will say something to the effect of "While there were some errors committed by both pilots ..." (yes, I'm betting they will find some mistake made by Captain Jonathan Campos of the American Airlines flight) "...

He made no mistake. He was on final for runway 33, and cleared for that approach and landing. He was also IFR. He had absolute priority in that airspace.

the collision nonetheless resulted from a divergence of established ATC procedure.

I agree. Primarily it's ATC's screwup.

I agree that both DoD and American Airlines will alter their training,

American Airlines need not alter anything. The pilot had absolute priority in that airspace as landing IFR traffic. All landing procedures were being followed.

as a formality, but only to include such a scenario in the training which is already mature.

There is no special American Airlines training here. The captain of the airline followed all regulations and had absolute priority in that airspace.

I had found American elections to be pretty free of theft.

NTSB investigations are not elections or politics. Their reports have to show the source of all of their evidence (such as the audio tapes of ATC, including all pilot conversations), radar plot data, aircraft reconstruction and analysis, content of all four flight recorders, the regulations themselves (quoted with references!), staffing records of ATC and other personnel at the airport, flight logs and pilot logs, maintenance logs, etc. It's not just a simple conclusion. It's a complete report. Pilots, mechanics, ATC operators, and lawyers, expect nothing less.

This is my hope.

I know what goes into an NTSB investigation and report. They can't impose the politics you think they can and get away with it.

 

[Into the Night]

my my my, look at all the expert air traffic controllers we have these days............

You're not one of them. As far as I can tell, there are only two people referencing the regulations here. Regulations you ignore.