uscitizen
Villified User
Ignoring the results of our invasion of Iraq does not help your position either
Al Qaeda in Iraq followers told to kill 'at least one American'
- Thread starter Damocles
- Start date
I probably should have phrased it more this way: It would be reasonable to think the Muslim "extremists" might feel that way, but the Muslim Extremists have been at "war" with us for some time, they would have felt that way before.
I'm not ignoring the results, I just believe that the result would have been the same had we limited ourselves to Afghanistan, or had we refused to react.Ignoring the results of our invasion of Iraq does not help your position either
OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
Yes, but are there more "extremists" now than there were in 2002? I think it's likely so. A lot more.
I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the facts in my posts - the facts as articulated by Colin Powell himself.
He said the American consulate was swamped by phone calls and faxes from not only palestinain officials, but also average palestinian people who offered the condolenses and expressed outrage at the handfull of palestinians protesting the grotesque celebrations by a handful of people.
And, once again, I think any reaction by us would have been used to create more extremists... I think that pictures of Afghani kids killed would have been used instead of Iraqi kids, etc. And that after this much time the same result would have been apparent.
uscitizen
Villified User
Fair enough, My view differs and I think invading Iraq made the AQ movement and other anti US groups grow in number. I guess we will have to just disagree.
Of course various experts reports support my belief.
OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
Except that the invasion of Afghanistan was largely seen as justified in the Muslim world, whereas the invasion of Iraq was not. We've exarcebated the effect by indulging in colonialistic expansionism, from their perspective.
Can you tell me how many calls constitute "swamped" and help me to quantify this?
I think that, over time, reports of such activities as "killing kids" and pictures of them as well as "successes" by al Qaeda using IEDs would change that.
I only saw a handfull of people, celebrating on the streets. Fox News never showed my a video with more than a few people in it.
I think by any reasonable definition "swamped" means MORE than a handful of telephone calls and faxes.
So, by quantifiable standards, you can point to a handfull of palestinians, and I can point to hundreds, maybe thousands ("swamped") of phone calls and faxes.
That speaks volumes, if you want to quantify things.
OrnotBitwise
Watermelon
I disagree. Iraq is a far more powerful recruiting tool for the various Islamist groups than Afghanistan could ever have been. It's the underlying resentment against the foreign invader -- or puppet master -- that opens the metaphorical door for them.
Official U.S. State Department Website:
"Powell said that the U.S. Consul General in Jerusalem had been swamped with calls from Palestinians who were expressing their sympathy and condolences, and disavowing any association with those who had rejoiced at the terrorist attacks."
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5889.htm
I think that if I wanted you to believe that they had more calls than a few I'd say "swamped"...
You keep repeating this. Can you quantify the numbers? It will help.
This I agree with.
Many arabs understood the right of the United States to self-defense against al qaeda in afghanistan. Even if, a minority demonstrated against the deaths of afghan civilians.
The Taliban regime was not well-liked in the arab world. Iran, in particular was happy to see them overthrown.
Hardly anybody recognized the U.S. right to "self-defense" in invading and occupying iraq, and causing tens of thousands of causualites there.
Fox News: video of a few palestinians.
Colin Powell: U.S. consulate swamped by phone calls.
As a reasonable person, you can figure out which is more.
It would have been the same when we created the new government in Afghanistan. My point is, we are resented for far more than the invasion of Iraq and we would still be even if we had limited ourselves to Afghanistan. Successes by al-Qaeda would have been promoted as recruiting tools. I believe that any reaction at all by the US would have been used with the most success coming from any invasion.
Iraq is "better" than just Afghanistan would have been from al-Qaeda's standpoint, but not by much. War would create unintended casualties, they would be exploited. Attacks on US strength would create excitement, more people would be recruited....
Like I said, don't get me wrong... I don't think Iraq was a good idea or anything, I'm just not pretending that just invading Afghanistan would have made them go away any faster.
