Alabama Shooting

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Maybe we should pass a law that you can't be fired?

While it is unfortunate that people are fired, such a law would be counterproductive. This is reductio ad absurdum, and Sol corrected me anyway.

Maybe we can pass a law that everyone has to undergo mandatory periodic psychological evaluations?

That would be fascist, and I have reason to doubt the efficacy of psychological evaluations in detecting whether someones going to go on a rampage anyway, since there are plenty of people who act like this and never do anything about it.

Maybe we can fix it so, if you have paranoid and vindictive tendencies, you can be incarcerated for it or institutionalized?

Again, it's fascist, and I specifically stated that it's impossible to tell the difference between him and a weirdo who's just not going to snap with any accuracy anyway.

Of course, you will think this is completely ridiculous, but isn't it the train of thought of the anti-gun pinheads?

No.

In fact, any one of these measures may have been just as effective as banning weapons. Or, they may have been just as ineffective. The guy seemed "normal" from all accounts. If the weapons he used had been unavailable, what's to say he couldn't have gone to Home Depot and bought the hardware to make a flame thrower? No matter what restriction you put in place, no matter how intrusive and cumbersome you make things, when a person goes off the deep end, there is little you can do to stop them.

Didn't read.

Here's a thought.... Maybe if the guy had been raised in a family who instilled moral values and reverence for life... maybe if he had gone to a school where students paid respect to God... maybe if his entertainment world weren't inundated with extreme glorified violence... maybe if he had been taught from the time he was old enough to learn, about the Golden Rule?

Like Joseph Duncan III? He killed children while shouting about the glory of gawd and how we should love one another. I've seen plenty of Christian psychopaths in my time.

Nahhh... I doubt any of that stuff would have made any difference here... let's just ban guns and continue to allow society to desensitize us to death through our movies and music, to trash God and religion, to attack decency and morality at every turn! Then when stuff like this happens, we can ponder what could have been done, like the idiots we are.

Whatever.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Charles Whitman went to a christian school. Surely they paid respect to God and taught the Golden Rule? Since he died in 1966, I don't think his entertainment was inundated with glorified violences.

So no, I don't think your answer is any better than those who want to ban guns. People were shooting each other when there was prayer in schools.

And exactly which God would you have them pay respect to, Dixie?

Jesus? Yahweh? Allah? Vishnu? Gaia? Mottleydude?

Well, Sol, I never said my idea was perfect. Certainly there have always been evil people who do evil things, it' a part of human nature we just have to deal with. However, I venture to say, there weren't as many nut cases like the one in Alabama, running around mowing down the entire town, back when morality was still important in our society. When we raised our young to respect life, and respect God, we didn't see the kind of evil we see on an almost daily basis. It's only in this modern "politically correct" world of denouncing God, and elevating violence to a glorified status, that we see this kind of human behavior on a routine basis. Call me crazy, but I think there may be a connection.

Which God to respect? How about ALL OF THEM? Particularly, the God in which an individuals family worships and respects, and teaches their children to respect. As opposed to Godless heathenism run amok, which is what we seem to have devolved to these days. I am not advocating we turn every school into a Catholic nightmare, or that we mandate people have to attend church services, but what happened to us as a society is not something new. Other civilizations have experienced the same pattern of decline, once you lose morality and decency, it's a slippery slope indeed. Standing on your immoral high horse, and denouncing any and all religious belief in the name of immorality, is not conducive with producing a healthy society. History proves this, time and time again... yet, we never learn.

 

[uscitizen]

What's all the fuss anyway? They were just Alabamans.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

There are ways to prevent it. But they would involve removing freedoms from everyone so that the very rare lunatic is not allowed to do harm.

If the only way this man could have harmed someone was by using a semi-automatic, clip fed, small caliber rifle, then I would be all for the assault rifle ban.

OK...I can agree with that...but you have to agree with me that Asshat being armed with more than a plastic spoon is a scary thought.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Charles Whitman went to a christian school. Surely they paid respect to God and taught the Golden Rule? Since he died in 1966, I don't think his entertainment was inundated with glorified violences.

So no, I don't think your answer is any better than those who want to ban guns. People were shooting each other when there was prayer in schools.

And exactly which God would you have them pay respect to, Dixie?

Jesus? Yahweh? Allah? Vishnu? Gaia? Mottleydude?

MOTTLEYDUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

What's all the fuss anyway? They were just Alabamans.

Hey! I have family in Alabama! Sir, need I remind you that not all Alabamians are inbred genetic defectives like Dixie!

 

[Cancel3]

Well, Sol, I never said my idea was perfect. Certainly there have always been evil people who do evil things, it' a part of human nature we just have to deal with. However, I venture to say, there weren't as many nut cases like the one in Alabama, running around mowing down the entire town, back when morality was still important in our society. When we raised our young to respect life, and respect God, we didn't see the kind of evil we see on an almost daily basis. It's only in this modern "politically correct" world of denouncing God, and elevating violence to a glorified status, that we see this kind of human behavior on a routine basis. Call me crazy, but I think there may be a connection.

Which God to respect? How about ALL OF THEM? Particularly, the God in which an individuals family worships and respects, and teaches their children to respect. As opposed to Godless heathenism run amok, which is what we seem to have devolved to these days. I am not advocating we turn every school into a Catholic nightmare, or that we mandate people have to attend church services, but what happened to us as a society is not something new. Other civilizations have experienced the same pattern of decline, once you lose morality and decency, it's a slippery slope indeed. Standing on your immoral high horse, and denouncing any and all religious belief in the name of immorality, is not conducive with producing a healthy society. History proves this, time and time again... yet, we never learn.

Morality is not the job of the schools. The public school system is about teaching academic courses. Morality, religion, and similar subjects should be taught at home and by the family.

"Standing on your immoral high horse, and denouncing any and all religious belief in the name of immorality, is not conducive with producing a healthy society."

What the hell are you talking about? I have not denounced any or all religions in any name. I have argued for supporting the US Constitution. And I have argued against christians who wish to force their religion on others, as was the case for many, many years. Must have been my being told that I had to stand and recite the Lord's Prayer for the first 3 years of my public education?

"As opposed to Godless heathenism run amok, which is what we seem to have devolved to these days." Maybe you could try and be a little more dramatic? Dixie, godless heathenism is not running amok. People may be choosing to attend church less, but no one is forcing them to go or not go. The fact that people are not allowing people like Judge Roy Moore to make up their own rules is a sign of progress.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Well, Sol, I never said my idea was perfect. Certainly there have always been evil people who do evil things, it' a part of human nature we just have to deal with. However, I venture to say, there weren't as many nut cases like the one in Alabama, running around mowing down the entire town, back when morality was still important in our society.

There weren't nearly as many people either. There are hardly any shooting today, and our population is about 10 times what it was a century ago, when you were born. As population goes up the number of shootings also goes up, giving the perception of a real increase in violence, but the total rate doesn't. I'd venture to say that child molestation, shootings, murder etc. were MUCH MUCH MORE common.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Morality is not the job of the schools. The public school system is about teaching academic courses. Morality, religion, and similar subjects should be taught at home and by the family.

"Standing on your immoral high horse, and denouncing any and all religious belief in the name of immorality, is not conducive with producing a healthy society."

What the hell are you talking about? I have not denounced any or all religions in any name. I have argued for supporting the US Constitution. And I have argued against christians who wish to force their religion on others, as was the case for many, many years. Must have been my being told that I had to stand and recite the Lord's Prayer for the first 3 years of my public education?

"As opposed to Godless heathenism run amok, which is what we seem to have devolved to these days." Maybe you could try and be a little more dramatic? Dixie, godless heathenism is not running amok. People may be choosing to attend church less, but no one is forcing them to go or not go. The fact that people are not allowing people like Judge Roy Moore to make up their own rules is a sign of progress.

It's funny that you determined what the job of the schools are, yet the schools were originally a foundation made possible by the churches. Yes, once was a time, all schools were operated and supported by the church. Now, I suspect, back in the Little House on the Prairie days there might have been an occasional nut case, laying waste to an entire town with guns or whatever... but it wasn't common, it didn't happen often, and it was usually not done by what people described as "a normal guy."

Yes, morality SHOULD be taught in the home by the family, but it's not. It hasn't been for a long time, which is why society has seen fit to systematically strip it from public education as well. Yes, we SHOULD all just treat each other with respect and love and follow the Golden Rule, but we don't. You can trash Christians if you like, but of all the people I've known who have a strong Christian faith, I've yet to see one who would be capable of the kind of madness the nut from Alabama displayed. Perhaps you having to recite the Lord's Prayer the first 3 years of your public education, instilled some value in you, which would forever preclude you from doing something evil? Maybe there is something to be said for the structure and foundation of spiritual faith, which gives meaning to morality and defines how we are to behave as decent human beings?

Nice little smarmy slap at Roy Moore there, but all Roy Moore did was display a monument to one of the foundational documents in which all Western Law is rooted and based. He didn't "rewrite" any rule, he paid respect to something we SHOULD all be paying respect to, but we're not. Why? Because idiots like yourself, who have taken up the banner of immorality and indecency, to tear down any and all semblance of righteousness. And you sit in your ignorance, wondering how someone could mow down an entire town on an otherwise peaceful southern afternoon?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

It's funny that you determined what the job of the schools are, yet the schools were originally a foundation made possible by the churches. Yes, once was a time, all schools were operated and supported by the church. Now, I suspect, back in the Little House on the Prairie days there might have been an occasional nut case, laying waste to an entire town with guns or whatever... but it wasn't common, it didn't happen often, and it was usually not done by what people described as "a normal guy."

Yes, morality SHOULD be taught in the home by the family, but it's not. It hasn't been for a long time, which is why society has seen fit to systematically strip it from public education as well. Yes, we SHOULD all just treat each other with respect and love and follow the Golden Rule, but we don't. You can trash Christians if you like, but of all the people I've known who have a strong Christian faith, I've yet to see one who would be capable of the kind of madness the nut from Alabama displayed. Perhaps you having to recite the Lord's Prayer the first 3 years of your public education, instilled some value in you, which would forever preclude you from doing something evil? Maybe there is something to be said for the structure and foundation of spiritual faith, which gives meaning to morality and defines how we are to behave as decent human beings?

Nice little smarmy slap at Roy Moore there, but all Roy Moore did was display a monument to one of the foundational documents in which all Western Law is rooted and based. He didn't "rewrite" any rule, he paid respect to something we SHOULD all be paying respect to, but we're not. Why? Because idiots like yourself, who have taken up the banner of immorality and indecency, to tear down any and all semblance of righteousness. And you sit in your ignorance, wondering how someone could mow down an entire town on an otherwise peaceful southern afternoon?

Actually that's a fairly common myth. The authors of the bible never intended it to be a legal treatise. Most of what we know as "Common Law" in the USA has it's historical roots in British Common law and Roman Common Law.

That is why in the past, before the reformation, there were two legal systems. The secular system, which has it's ultimate origins in Roman law and Cannon law, that is the law of the church. With the principle prohibition of recognizing an establishment of religion in the USA our modern form of constitutional law has surprizingly little influence from Christian Cannon law.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

There weren't nearly as many people either. There are hardly any shooting today, and our population is about 10 times what it was a century ago when you were born. As population goes up the number of shootings also goes up, but the total rate doesn't. I'd venture to say that child molestation, shootings, murder etc. were MUCH MUCH MORE common.

The rate of violent crime has risen across the board. That is a fact. The further society strays from moral decency, the more prevalent violent crime becomes. We saw what became of the Roman Empire, and it happens in every civilization known to man. Decadence and immorality prevail, morality and decency decline, and societies collapse as a result. It has happened over and over again, and us ignorant and arrogant humans just never learn from it.

It's the easiest most natural thing in the world, to denounce morality and decency. It's easy to proclaim you have no faith or belief in anything greater than self. Life is much easier when you have no parameters or guidelines to govern your personal morals and ethics. It's hard to follow and obey moral teachings, especially when the whole world seems to be against you, denouncing what you stand for, undermining the principles at every turn. It's no wonder humans continue to follow the same exact pattern of societal existence, the rise and decline on man, it never seems to change.

 

[Cancel3]

Nice little smarmy slap at Roy Moore there, but all Roy Moore did was display a monument to one of the foundational documents in which all Western Law is rooted and based. He didn't "rewrite" any rule, he paid respect to something we SHOULD all be paying respect to, but we're not. Why? Because idiots like yourself, who have taken up the banner of immorality and indecency, to tear down any and all semblance of righteousness. And you sit in your ignorance, wondering how someone could mow down an entire town on an otherwise peaceful southern afternoon?

I cannot believe that even you would defend Roy Moore. All Roy Moore did was put a monument to a single religion in the lobby of the Alabama Supreme Court, and not allow another single display in the lobby.

If you think that is harmless, perhaps a quick review of the 10 Commandments is in order? Along with which ones are the basis for our laws.

1) 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

Now this is the fundamental problem I have with this being displayed in a courthouse. It says that there are no gods higher than the christian god.

No law based on this commandment.


2) 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

Nothing in the laws of our nation that this helped to create.


3) 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

So the monument in the Alabama Supreme Court lobby was telling everyone that they cannot take the name of the christian god in vain. But no protections for any other gods.

No laws based on this that I know of. If there are, they are archaic and outdated jokes.


4) 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

Blue Laws are the only laws that this helped create. And they are a sign of opression more than fairness.


5) Honor your father and your mother.'

No laws concerning this one.


6) 'You shall not murder.'

Ok, so we finally get to one of the commandments that represents a law in this nation.


7) 'You shall not commit adultery.'

Committing adultery is immoral but not illegal.


8) 'You shall not steal.'

Another commandment that is the basis for a law.


9) 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

This one is semi-relevant as a law. There are circumstances in which you can be in trouble for lying, but its not something that is universal.


10) 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Nope, this one is not a law either. Covetting something is not against any law, nor should it be.





So basically there are 2 commandments that became laws and one is a maybe. And most civilizations had laws against murder and stealing.

But what Roy Moore did was to make it clear that what he believed is more important than what other people believe and what the US Constitution says.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Actually that's a fairly common myth. The authors of the bible never intended it to be a legal treatise. Most of what we know as "Common Law" in the USA has it's historical roots in British Common law and Roman Common Law.

Nonsense. The basis for all Western law is the 10 Commandments and the Code of Hammurabi. This is why the 10 Commandments are carved into the marble of the Supreme Court of the United States. Two of the 10 Commandments are direct laws, several others are indirect basis for laws in Western culture. To argue this is not so, is profound ignorance of either the 10 Commandments, or Western law.

 

[Bonestorm]

Nonsense. The basis for all Western law is the 10 Commandments and the Code of Hammurabi. This is why the 10 Commandments are carved into the marble of the Supreme Court of the United States. Two of the 10 Commandments are direct laws, several others are indirect basis for laws in Western culture. To argue this is not so, is profound ignorance of either the 10 Commandments, or Western law.

So it's basically Christian Sharia? Is that your position?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I cannot believe that even you would defend Roy Moore. All Roy Moore did was put a monument to a single religion in the lobby of the Alabama Supreme Court, and not allow another single display in the lobby.

That's just plain incorrect, Sol. The 10 Commandments are not a monument to a single religion. As I stated above, they are the basis and foundation of all Western law, and are indeed, carved into the marble of the SCOTUS. To claim it is somehow "unconstitutional" to publicly display such a monument, is to claim the SCOTUS building itself, in violation of the Constitution! Nothing could be more ridiculous.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The rate of violent crime has risen across the board. That is a fact.

This is often claimed, but it's JUST NOT true!

It's been going down in every major industrialized nation since the 70's. I often hear people on TV claiming that everything from suicide, drug rates, teen pregnancy, and crime is constantly skyrocketing, when like everything else, it just has its ups and downs. Mostly the perception is just because of the newsmedia TRYING to scare us - while the crime rate has fallen dramatically since the 70's, the portion of news devoted to crime has gone way up, giving us a false perception of more violence. This is a well-documented fact.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

So it's basically Christian Sharia? Is that your position?

Nope... not what I said!

But I would argue, a return to decent God-loving morals our nation was founded on, might be better for our society than the current P-Diddy-cap-yo-neighbors-and-slap-yo-bitches-and-hoes- mentality we are currently embracing.

 

[Cancel3]

It's funny that you determined what the job of the schools are, yet the schools were originally a foundation made possible by the churches. Yes, once was a time, all schools were operated and supported by the church. Now, I suspect, back in the Little House on the Prairie days there might have been an occasional nut case, laying waste to an entire town with guns or whatever... but it wasn't common, it didn't happen often, and it was usually not done by what people described as "a normal guy."

Yes, morality SHOULD be taught in the home by the family, but it's not. It hasn't been for a long time, which is why society has seen fit to systematically strip it from public education as well. Yes, we SHOULD all just treat each other with respect and love and follow the Golden Rule, but we don't. You can trash Christians if you like, but of all the people I've known who have a strong Christian faith, I've yet to see one who would be capable of the kind of madness the nut from Alabama displayed. Perhaps you having to recite the Lord's Prayer the first 3 years of your public education, instilled some value in you, which would forever preclude you from doing something evil? Maybe there is something to be said for the structure and foundation of spiritual faith, which gives meaning to morality and defines how we are to behave as decent human beings?

Yes, originally in the west all schools were church schools. But that is ancient history. What we have now is a system that allows people from all backgrounds, religions, races, and classes to learn the huge amount of information necessary to prepare them for college or life as a well-rounded member of society.

Whether you want to admit it or not, what happened in Alabama is exceedingly rare. It is not common at all.

I am not trashing christians or the christian faith. Why is it, Dixie, that any time I talk about removing fundamentalist christian dogma from public schools, you claim I am trashing all of christianity? Total bullshit.

My values were instilled in me by my parents. They were christians, but they both would have disagreed with you on this topic.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

The further society strays from moral decency, the more prevalent violent crime becomes. We saw what became of the Roman Empire, and it happens in every civilization known to man. Decadence and immorality prevail, morality and decency decline, and societies collapse as a result. It has happened over and over again, and us ignorant and arrogant humans just never learn from it.

YOu know, I've heard about 10k "causes" for the collapse of Rome.

Most probably, they were just overstretched and the barbarians had become too advanced, so naturally they fell, just like everything else. But that's too complicated. Instead, it's because of lack of morality, the financial system, or abandonment of neo-liberal economics.

 

[Cancel3]

That's just plain incorrect, Sol. The 10 Commandments are not a monument to a single religion. As I stated above, they are the basis and foundation of all Western law, and are indeed, carved into the marble of the SCOTUS. To claim it is somehow "unconstitutional" to publicly display such a monument, is to claim the SCOTUS building itself, in violation of the Constitution! Nothing could be more ridiculous.

Dixie, you are so full of shit.

The difference between the display of Roy Moore and the SCOTUS is that the SCOTUS has a lot of things on display concerning laws. Yes, there is a frieze of Moses and the 10 Commandments.

But in the same section are friezes of Hammurabi, Lycurgus, Confucius, Solomon, and more. On the opposite wall there are friezes of Justinian, Muhammad, Charlemagne, Napoleon and more law givers.

The SCOTUS includes the 10 Commandments in their display of law givers. Roy Moore made it the only display. There is a huge difference.