American exceptionalism

[ThatOwlWoman]

Colonialism prior to the United States becoming a nation doesn't count as it isn't something the United States did. Secondly, the situation with indigenous tribes is far more complex than a few sources would show. As for Puerto Rico, if they wanted to be an independent nation, they could become one tomorrow. The problem is they have had a split population on whether to become a state or become independent leaving them in limbo as a territory of the US.

This bit of stupidity tells me that there's not much point in responding further. So here's all I'm going to say about your erroneous beliefs.

The history of colonialism around the world is always that of a group with superior tools subjugating one with inferior, taking their property and land, and forcing them to live under the rule whether they liked it or not. So contrary to your earlier statements, America has indeed done the same thing both before and after 1776.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

The USA is found on conquering, colonialism & imperialism against Native Americans.

Absolutely true.

 

[Tranquillus in Exile]

I spent 27 years in the military ...

In that case may I ask your professional opinion? Do you think Donald Trump would have made a good officer if he hadn’t had bone spurs?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Or what happens in Socialist countries where all the wealth is confiscated and only the elite rich can be rich while everyone else gets a handout from the government.

Maybe you'd like a case of the CLAP like Venezuela gives it's citizens...

http://todayvenezuela.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/45F622DD-3B3F-465C-872F-D674D5464062_cx0_cy10_cw0_w1597_n_r1_s.jpg[/QUOTE]
Agreed. It's not an "either or" solution. It's fighting to maintain a strong middle class as this great nation was built upon. We're losing it.

[url]https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2017/04/24/the-middle-class-is-large-in-many-western-european-countries-but-it-is-losing-ground-in-places/[/url]
[IMG]https://www.pewresearch.org/global/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/ST_2017.04.24_Western-Europe-Middle-Class_1-01.png

 

[T. A. Gardner]

In that case may I ask your professional opinion? Do you think Donald Trump would have made a good officer if he hadn’t had bone spurs?

I think he'd have been an average nobody as an officer. He doesn't strike me as the sort that are bad. Instead, he strikes me as the sort that'd do the job, not get called on the carpet, and resign the minute he could because he'd think the whole exercise was beneath him, that he had bigger and better things to do. I think he'd leave most of the work up to the NCO's and as long as things went smoothly there'd be no problems. But anything making him look bad and WHAM! you are so gone in an instant. On the other hand, don't expect him to be looking out for you either. I've been around that type more than once. You personally dislike them, often intensely, but they aren't world class screw ups that will wreck your world.

The bad ones in my experience come in several types:

Those promoted or selected on the basis of political correctness. They're usually incompetent and willing to use their 'special' status as a weapon against you. In my experience it was usually a woman. They knew they were untouchable so when things went south they'd blame everything on the innocent and go all dictator on you making things worse. You spent your time doing CYA a lot.

Those more concerned about paperwork and looking good on paper than getting things done. This type is probably the worst. I had the displeasure of working under a Commander (equivalent of Army Lt. Colonel), who made you carry around a thick notebook full of useless paperwork. He'd issue memos about a memo, attached to a memo, with a memo on the routing sheet (he designed it and it took up a full 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper). I swear the if you ran into his office and told him the building was on fire he'd die in the fire. But if you sent him a memo, properly routed he'd survive. He eventually got fired by an admiral who showed up in person to do the deed because he was making the whole command look so bad.

Then there were the power hungry. They liked you if you could make them look good, otherwise you were completely expendable and of no value to them. This type is dangerous. John Kerry strikes me as this sort of officer.

A variant of the political climber is the boot licker. This guy sucks up to his superiors and treats the enlisted like they are something awful he stepped in. The enlisted absolutely hate the guy and will do anything they can to make him look bad. But since he's always sucking up to the higher ranked officers he gets a pass. This sort destroys units and undermines morale.

The last type is the incompetent, energetic officer. These guys are train wrecks looking for a place to happen. They usually don't last much past LTjg. It becomes clear they just weren't meant to be officers.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

In that case may I ask your professional opinion? Do you think Donald Trump would have made a good officer if he hadn’t had bone spurs?

I think he'd have been an average nobody as an officer. He doesn't strike me as the sort that are bad. Instead, he strikes me as the sort that'd do the job, not get called on the carpet, and resign the minute he could because he'd think the whole exercise was beneath him, that he had bigger and better things to do. I think he'd leave most of the work up to the NCO's and as long as things went smoothly there'd be no problems. But anything making him look bad and WHAM! you are so gone in an instant. On the other hand, don't expect him to be looking out for you either. I've been around that type more than once. You personally dislike them, often intensely, but they aren't world class screw ups that will wreck your world.

The bad ones in my experience come in several types:

Those promoted or selected on the basis of political correctness. They're usually incompetent and willing to use their 'special' status as a weapon against you. In my experience it was usually a woman. They knew they were untouchable so when things went south they'd blame everything on the innocent and go all dictator on you making things worse. You spent your time doing CYA a lot.

Those more concerned about paperwork and looking good on paper than getting things done. This type is probably the worst. I had the displeasure of working under a Commander (equivalent of Army Lt. Colonel), who made you carry around a thick notebook full of useless paperwork. He'd issue memos about a memo, attached to a memo, with a memo on the routing sheet (he designed it and it took up a full 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of paper). I swear the if you ran into his office and told him the building was on fire he'd die in the fire. But if you sent him a memo, properly routed he'd survive. He eventually got fired by an admiral who showed up in person to do the deed because he was making the whole command look so bad.

Then there were the power hungry. They liked you if you could make them look good, otherwise you were completely expendable and of no value to them. This type is dangerous. John Kerry strikes me as this sort of officer.

A variant of the political climber is the boot licker. This guy sucks up to his superiors and treats the enlisted like they are something awful he stepped in. The enlisted absolutely hate the guy and will do anything they can to make him look bad. But since he's always sucking up to the higher ranked officers he gets a pass. This sort destroys units and undermines morale.

The last type is the incompetent, energetic officer. These guys are train wrecks looking for a place to happen. They usually don't last much past LTjg. It becomes clear they just weren't meant to be officers.

Speculation is infinite. The fact remains Trump's main characteristic is to look out for number one and that, alone, would make him a very poor officer or NCO.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Speculation is infinite. The fact remains Trump's main characteristic is to look out for number one and that, alone, would make him a very poor officer or NCO.

I don't see Trump as the sort of officer Kerry was. Kerry wrote himself up for three purple hearts and hasn't got so much as a small scar to show for those. The second he got his third, he applied to end his tour in Vietnam. Kerry was before going to swift boats a DivO on a guided missile destroyer. That's a typical first tour assignment for an officer. I'm sure he saw in Link the career and job opportunity guide the Navy used back then that he could volunteer for swift boats and did, simply to get some medals--which he did mostly by applying for them himself.

The second he could get out of combat he did. He married up for money, and immediately went into politics. The guy was a total political climber.

Trump doesn't strike me as that way. Sure, he's a braggard and aggressive but that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's the sort that'd say "We're gonna do great things!" and then come up with something big to make himself look good while still making the worker bees if not happy certainly not unhappy with him. I don't think he's a "look out for number one" sort of guy on the whole.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't see Trump as the sort of officer Kerry was. Kerry wrote himself up for three purple hearts and hasn't got so much as a small scar to show for those. The second he got his third, he applied to end his tour in Vietnam. Kerry was before going to swift boats a DivO on a guided missile destroyer. That's a typical first tour assignment for an officer. I'm sure he saw in Link the career and job opportunity guide the Navy used back then that he could volunteer for swift boats and did, simply to get some medals--which he did mostly by applying for them himself.

The second he could get out of combat he did. He married up for money, and immediately went into politics. The guy was a total political climber.

Trump doesn't strike me as that way. Sure, he's a braggard and aggressive but that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's the sort that'd say "We're gonna do great things!" and then come up with something big to make himself look good while still making the worker bees if not happy certainly not unhappy with him. I don't think he's a "look out for number one" sort of guy on the whole.

We can both agree Kerry turned into a scumbag as a civilian. The Swiftboaters were lying assholes. Nothing I've seen in Kerry's actual service recorded was peculiar or dishonorable. Attacking vets became politically acceptable after the 2000 election because of those assholes. Notice that it's the draft-dodgers and chickenhawks leading the attacks on vets including you boy Donnie.

Feel free to provide your own evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_John_Kerry#Criticism_of_military_service_and_awards
Critics have questioned several aspects of Kerry's military service. As the presidential campaign of 2004 developed, around 200 Vietnam-era veterans formed the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (SBVT) and held press conferences, ran ads (financed in part by a major Republican party donor in Texas) and endorsed a book Unfit for Command questioning Kerry's service record and his military awards. Several SBVT members were in the same unit with Kerry. SVPT member Stephen Gardner served on the same boat. Other SBVT members included two of Kerry's former commanding officers, Grant Hibbard and George Elliott. Hibbard and Elliott have alleged, respectively, that Kerry's first Purple Heart and Silver Star were undeserved. In addition, members of SBVT have questioned his other medals and his truthfulness in testimony about the war. Defenders of John Kerry's war record, who include nine of the ten living crewmen who served under him,[22] have charged that organizers of SBVT had close ties to the Bush presidential campaign and that the accusations were false and politically motivated .

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/service-mettle/
Claim: John Kerry’s Vietnam War service medals (a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts) were earned under “fishy” circumstances.

Status: False.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

We can both agree Kerry turned into a scumbag as a civilian. The Swiftboaters were lying assholes. Nothing I've seen in Kerry's actual service recorded was peculiar or dishonorable. Attacking vets became politically acceptable after the 2000 election because of those assholes. Notice that it's the draft-dodgers and chickenhawks leading the attacks on vets including you boy Donnie.

Feel free to provide your own evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_career_of_John_Kerry#Criticism_of_military_service_and_awards
Critics have questioned several aspects of Kerry's military service. As the presidential campaign of 2004 developed, around 200 Vietnam-era veterans formed the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (SBVT) and held press conferences, ran ads (financed in part by a major Republican party donor in Texas) and endorsed a book Unfit for Command questioning Kerry's service record and his military awards. Several SBVT members were in the same unit with Kerry. SVPT member Stephen Gardner served on the same boat. Other SBVT members included two of Kerry's former commanding officers, Grant Hibbard and George Elliott. Hibbard and Elliott have alleged, respectively, that Kerry's first Purple Heart and Silver Star were undeserved. In addition, members of SBVT have questioned his other medals and his truthfulness in testimony about the war. Defenders of John Kerry's war record, who include nine of the ten living crewmen who served under him,[22] have charged that organizers of SBVT had close ties to the Bush presidential campaign and that the accusations were false and politically motivated .

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/service-mettle/
Claim: John Kerry’s Vietnam War service medals (a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts) were earned under “fishy” circumstances.

Status: False.

I spent 27 years in the Navy and as a Chief I know with absolute certainty Kerry gamed the system to get the medals he did. As an officer he could do it as the system largely relies on the integrity of the officer(s) writing up the initial submission to make it valid. This has nothing to do with the SBVT or anything else. This is using my personal expertise to 'read between the lines' so-to-speak on what Kerry did based on all the published reports there are.
We know for example, that he cut his tour short after receiving his third Purple Heart in under 90 days. That's an unparalleled record in military service, particularly for someone who hasn't got so much as a small scar to show for it.

I'd say Snopes is full of shit on this and their "fact checkers" weren't in the Navy or had that sort of experience. That isn't to say the Swift Boat Veteran's group is telling the full truth, but I know when a service record smells like week old fish and Kerry's smells like month old fish.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Agreed. It's not an "either or" solution. It's fighting to maintain a strong middle class as this great nation was built upon. We're losing it.

What will spell the death of America as we descend into 3rd-world-country status will be the vehement denial of your post here. (R)s and Trumpanzees pay homage to the American middle class, but they worship wealth and the wealthy as they've been taught. They abhor taxes on the wealthy because job creation builshit they swallowed without questioning. They hate unions, the minimum wage or raising it, and they do not want to fund higher education -- or even K-12 education either. They are obedient servants to the overclass who will oppress them far more completely than they are oppressed now.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I spent 27 years in the Navy and as a Chief I know with absolute certainty Kerry gamed the system to get the medals he did. As an officer he could do it as the system largely relies on the integrity of the officer(s) writing up the initial submission to make it valid. This has nothing to do with the SBVT or anything else. This is using my personal expertise to 'read between the lines' so-to-speak on what Kerry did based on all the published reports there are.
We know for example, that he cut his tour short after receiving his third Purple Heart in under 90 days. That's an unparalleled record in military service, particularly for someone who hasn't got so much as a small scar to show for it.

I'd say Snopes is full of shit on this and their "fact checkers" weren't in the Navy or had that sort of experience. That isn't to say the Swift Boat Veteran's group is telling the full truth, but I know when a service record smells like week old fish and Kerry's smells like month old fish.

Dude, if you are what you say you are, you know officers can't write themselves up for awards.

Are you disputing the facts in the links I posted? Do you have any evidence of your own to back up your accusations against another vet? Another sailor?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

What will spell the death of America as we descend into 3rd-world-country status will be the vehement denial of your post here. (R)s and Trumpanzees pay homage to the American middle class, but they worship wealth and the wealthy as they've been taught. They abhor taxes on the wealthy because job creation builshit they swallowed without questioning. They hate unions, the minimum wage or raising it, and they do not want to fund higher education -- or even K-12 education either. They are obedient servants to the overclass who will oppress them far more completely than they are oppressed now.

Didn't your parents teach you the old Persian adage "This too shall pass"?

It would be the death of American ideals for the middle class to be winnowed out of existence, but I doubt that will happen. Americans will be pushed so far before they push back.....but we may not live long enough to see it.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Dude, if you are what you say you are, you know officers can't write themselves up for awards.

Are you disputing the facts in the links I posted? Do you have any evidence of your own to back up your accusations against another vet? Another sailor?

Oh yes they can. They then have to submit it up the chain of command. I am disputing the links. I also know the awards process is anything but fair too. For example , a Commander put me in for a Navy Meritorious Service medal

I was later told by her that the admiral's staff downgraded it to another Navy Commendation Medal (my 6th) because "that award is for officers..." (it's not but that was the reason she was given).

Kerry could initiate the process. It would be up to his superiors to validate his report and recommendation. Given that they had little direct contact with him due to the way the Swift Boats operated and nested in port, he could easily slip a well worded recommendation past them. Bronze stars aren't that unusual in combat units. A sliver star takes more to achieve but could be managed with a proper write up. The three purple hearts is far harder to explain. I'd think Kerry took full advantage of the system to get those putting in for one for every scratch he got in combat.

Typical purple heart holders have scars to show for their award. I knew a CWO in the Army that served in WW 2, Korea, and Vietnam and even though he'd had minor injuries in combat didn't get a purple heart until Vietnam where he had to go to medical to get pieces of a light bulb removed from his hand and arm after a mortar round shattered the light bulb in the bunker he was in during a Viet Cong attack. Kerry could, and I 100% believe, gamed the system for his own benefit.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Oh yes they can. They then have to submit it up the chain of command. I am disputing the links. I also know the awards process is anything but fair too. For example , a Commander put me in for a Navy Meritorious Service medal

I was later told by her that the admiral's staff downgraded it to another Navy Commendation Medal (my 6th) because "that award is for officers..." (it's not but that was the reason she was given).

Kerry could initiate the process. It would be up to his superiors to validate his report and recommendation. Given that they had little direct contact with him due to the way the Swift Boats operated and nested in port, he could easily slip a well worded recommendation past them. Bronze stars aren't that unusual in combat units. A sliver star takes more to achieve but could be managed with a proper write up. The three purple hearts is far harder to explain. I'd think Kerry took full advantage of the system to get those putting in for one for every scratch he got in combat.

Typical purple heart holders have scars to show for their award. I knew a CWO in the Army that served in WW 2, Korea, and Vietnam and even though he'd had minor injuries in combat didn't get a purple heart until Vietnam where he had to go to medical to get pieces of a light bulb removed from his hand and arm after a mortar round shattered the light bulb in the bunker he was in during a Viet Cong attack. Kerry could, and I 100% believe, gamed the system for his own benefit.

Disagreed since someone other than the recipient has to recommend the award. The fact you got fucked by some staff puke doesn't change the facts. Of course you disagree about Kerry. He's douchebag. He's just not the fucking douchebag the Swiftboaters claim him to be.

Your confusion might be from officers being asked to write themselves up just because the senior officer is lazy or, to give them experience in writing skills....as if they don't get it writing up evals.

Anyone who makes it to the NCO or higher ranks learns the service isn't fair and the worst leaders are often the ones who excel behind a desk. Quit crying about your fucking medal. I didn't get one either.

 

[leaningright]

This thread has derailed somewhat but back to the original thought...I absolutely believe in America as an exceptional country. I didn’t say it was perfect, but it is exceptional. I believe that there are those who want people not to believe that because when we do, it is easier to implement socialism.

But Marx was baffled by how the United States defied this rule. No nation seemed more fully imbued with capitalism, yet no nation showed less interest in becoming socialist. This became one of the unresolved puzzles of socialist theory, and it gave rise to frustrated socialists (like Werner Sombart) who struggled with the question: Why is there no socialism in America? Sombart blamed it on the drug of material abundance: socialism, he complained, had foundered in America “on the shoals of roast beef and apple pie.” But another socialist, Leon Samson, had seen better than Sombart that the real enemy of socialism was exceptionalism itself, because Americans give “a solemn assent to a handful of final notions—democracy, liberty, opportunity, to all of which the American adheres rationalistically much as a socialist adheres to his socialism.” https://www.city-journal.org/american-exceptionalism

I’ll conclude...how many people do you see clamoring to get into ............. (insert name of other country there)?

 

[Tranquillus in Exile]

This thread has derailed somewhat but back to the original thought...I absolutely believe in America as an exceptional country. I didn’t say it was perfect, but it is exceptional. I believe that there are those who want people not to believe that because when we do, it is easier to implement socialism.



I’ll conclude...how many people do you see clamoring to get into ............. (insert name of other country there)?

England. It's estimated there are more than a million illegal immigrants there.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...al-immigrants-uk-quarter-entire-total-europe/

The ones who make the headlines are those who cross the Channel in leaky boats. For some reason they don't want to stay in France.

 

[Nordberg]

England. It's estimated there are more than a million illegal immigrants there.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...al-immigrants-uk-quarter-entire-total-europe/

The ones who make the headlines are those who cross the Channel in leaky boats. For some reason they don't want to stay in France.

Over a million Americans moved to Mexico. Here are where Americans escape to. https://www.aetnainternational.com/...to the Association of,well as China and Japan. Over 10 million have left.