Are gays "born gay"?

Damocles said:
My point is, it isn't a societal issue. It is a personal issue. And a religious one. There are churches that will give ceremonies to homosexuals now. Therefore "in the eyes of God" they are married. States that allow it, the institution hasn't failed because of it.

Your arguments are all weak and ineffective. "We did it this way for years" is not a valid logical stance, nor does it make your point that your will should be forced onto them as the only valid stance. Each of us are able to enjoy worshipping as we see fit, even if we choose to worship at a place that would marry two homosexuals to each other. Society should have no say other than to ensure they are of an age where decisions can be made and that they are not forced into it and therefore victimized.
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We live in a democratic society where the majority rules. The only time gays have been allowed to be married is when democracy has been bastardized.
 
Southern Man said:
We live in a democratic society where the majority rules. The only time gays have been allowed to be married is when democracy has been bastardized.
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We don't. We have a measured democracy with a representative government that is restricted in its rights. Where in the constitution does it say that the Federal government has the power to regulate marriage?

It does not. It is therefore either a state or an individual right according to the 10th amendment. In this case I profer it to the individual, as it is between them and their God. You prefer to suggest it is the right of others to insist that in this matter they believe exactly as you do and therefore must follow your beliefs.

The constitution was written to protect the individual against such an intrusion.
 
Southern Man said:
Come on fella that's a tired and false argument.
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It is not tired because I have never seen anyone use it before, nor is it false. I believe, as you do, that homosexuality is a sin-- but that has no impact on my life or my government.
The Greeks condemned homosexuality
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After writing pages and pages of philosophical texts praising it
, as well as false gods, when they embraced Christianity. Their culture as well as ours is thus embedded in the Old Testament.
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Yes, when they embraced Christianity-- thousands of years later.

Even using your argument, 1600 years is a lot of history to dump on just because less than 1% of society wants to use the word "marriage" to describe a monogamous homosexual relationship.
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Is 1600 years more time than 4000 years?
 
Southern Man said:
Many people in the poll agree with me; however most just say the homosexuality is wrong. we don't know why they think it is.

You've managed to derail th thread for about 9 pages now. Good job. So back to the OP. Are gays born gay or not?
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Just refer back to Thorns post long ago. I think that is the only real evidence presented in this thread so far.
 
Damocles said:
We don't. We have a measured democracy with a representative government that is restricted in its rights. Where in the constitution does it say that the Federal government has the power to regulate marriage?

It does not. It is therefore either a state or an individual right according to the 10th amendment. In this case I profer it to the individual, as it is between them and their God. You prefer to suggest it is the right of others to insist that in this matter they believe exactly as you do and therefore must follow your beliefs.

The constitution was written to protect the individual against such an intrusion.
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If someone can make up an abnormal sexual relationship then they can make up a religion and do with it what they want. However we are talking about State government and a license to marry. This was discussed previously in this thread.
 
Southern Man said:
If someone can make up an abnormal sexual relationship then they can make up a religion and do with it what they want. However we are talking about State government and a license to marry. This was discussed previously in this thread.
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Again, you are basing it on the religion as they are "wrong". Society does not get to dictate this. As before it has been answered, repeating it as salient after it was found to be in error doesn't make it suddenly right.
 
Damocles said:
Again, you are basing it on the religion as they are "wrong". Society does not get to dictate this. As before it has been answered, repeating it as salient after it was found to be in error doesn't make it suddenly right.
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Society dictates right and wrong on thousands of issues and deeds.
 
Southern Man said:
Society dictates right and wrong on thousands of issues and deeds.
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That's usually premised on the belief that the action actually HARMS OTHERS. Consensual gayness is just not that harmful to others.
I have some issues with gay prostelyttytizing (sp) going on in elementary schools, but other than that I'm cool with the queers.
 
Southern Man said:
Assuming that true for a moment, which one?
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It doesn't matter which one. It matters that it is victimless other than in the eyes of religion. The attempt to first make the activity illegal or to later keep them inside a specific box is related solely to the "sin" or "wrongness" based on religious argument.
 
AssHatZombie said:
That's usually premised on the belief that the action actually HARMS OTHERS. Consensual gayness is just not that harmful to others.
I have some issues with gay prostelyttytizing (sp) going on in elementary schools, but other than that I'm cool with the queers.
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We are not taliking about "consensual gayness", but marriage. If that were the case, most of America, including The Southern Man, would be "cool with queers".

Actually I wanted to discuss the nature vs. nuture issue, but there appears to be no one here able to argue the "nature" point of view. Perhaps because it is such a weak position.
 
Damocles said:
It doesn't matter which one. It matters that it is victimless other than in the eyes of religion. The attempt to first make the activity illegal or to later keep them inside a specific box is related solely to the "sin" or "wrongness" based on religious argument.
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Of course it matters. If you are going to argue Constitutionality with respect to an Amendment, you must be specific.

One could argue that drug abuse is a victimless crime, but society has banned that.
 
Southern Man said:
We are not taliking about "consensual gayness", but marriage. If that were the case, most of America, including The Southern Man, would be "cool with queers".

Actually I wanted to discuss the nature vs. nuture issue, but there appears to be no one here able to argue the "nature" point of view. Perhaps because it is such a weak position.
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Again, the only reason to exclude them is the "sanctity" argument. Thus again crossing into using government to enforce religious beliefs.
 
Southern Man said:
Of course it matters. If you are going to argue Constitutionality with respect to an Amendment, you must be specific.

One could argue that drug abuse is a victimless crime, but society has banned that.
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It is illegal to purchase and own it. That is Interstate commerce and a power of the government granted in the constitution. Now you are just showing ignorance.
 
Southern Man said:
And again, assuming that true for a moment, how is government prevented from doing that?
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They are perforce not permitted to make law respecting an establishment of religion. It doesn't matter which or why, if the sole reason is to enforce religious beliefs the government cannot play a part.
 
Damocles said:
They are perforce not permitted to make law respecting an establishment of religion. It doesn't matter which or why, if the sole reason is to enforce religious beliefs the government cannot play a part.
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One could argue that it is tradition, not religion, and that one woman-one man is elemental and therefore society has a responsibility to uphold it.
 
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