APP - Are Police, Fire Departments Socialist?

USFREEDOM911 said:
Let me guess, you're renting or else you have your own pump.
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No, parts of the city, certain suburbs, do not have a water meter. It's included in the land tax. There is an on-going debate about installing meters but the cost to profit doesn't make sense.

Also, most properties in a suburb are the same size. Most households use the same amount of water so it makes sense to just average out the cost and divide it among the residents.
 
apple0154 said:
No, parts of the city, certain suburbs, do not have a water meter. It's included in the land tax. There is an on-going debate about installing meters but the cost to profit doesn't make sense.

Also, most properties in a suburb are the same size. Most households use the same amount of water so it makes sense to just average out the cost and divide it among the residents.
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So you pay a tax, to use the water, and you have no accountability if someone else uses more or wastes the water!!
 
Annie said:
Socialism for the most part is 19th C political theory. I'd posit that the difference between what near everyone agrees with as 'general welfare' and 'socialism' is the breadth of government.

Without getting into the 'good' or 'bad' of the entitlement programs, I think there is certainly agreement that these did not traditionally fall within the scope of government prior to the 19th C? Those are the programs that tend to be labeled 'socialism.' They lead to dependence on the state, which by definition enlarges the power of the state. Police and fire do no such thing, unless the police are out of control.
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Yea well we didn't have much of a middle class to speak of back then either. You're also dancing on the head of the pin that I wanted to see GL do. What difference does it make, from a historical perspective, what the service is, if it is being paid for by the Government (i.e. the taxpayers)?

What's pouring piss into GL's post toasties is that he's bought into this paradigm that socialism is wrong and immoral. The fact is, that socialism is appropriate for providing certain services for which market capitalism performs poorly. National defense being a perfect example of that. National Defense and Education are really the only two industries in our country that are truly nationalized, that is to say, socialist. If national defense wasn't socialist then the hard cold fact is that our military would be composed of mercenaries. I don't think there's a rational person here who would want to see our military ran by mercenaries as it would be an obvious threat to our democratic republic.

But back to your claim, what one "labels" something and what are the facts are two different critters. Increasing our military not only increases the scope, size and power of the state but if directly threatens our democratic institutions as if our military becomes to large and two powerful they can end those democratic institutions. It's hard to envision social programs designed to help our neediest representing such a threat.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
That was a completely irrational comment Bravo. Who do you think pays a persons salary in a socialized organization or institution. Oh, that's right, it's the Government!!!

So please explain this to me. If the examples you sited are not socialist then please explain to me why public education and public health care brought to you in the same manner are socialist?[......
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Simply, they are not socialist, as I've been trying to get across to ApplePinhead.....

Every 3 or 4 years, without fail, teachers DEMAND, and will go on strike for higher and higher wages and benefits...the same with police and fireman but to a lesser degree....that would not happen if it were 'socialized'.....the government would pay you what they want to pay and the right to demand (strike) would not exist.....Teachers, police, firemen ARE NOT even close to a socialized organization.....so you're wrong from the getgo....

The closest thing to a socialized system is medicare and Medicaid where the government pays doctors, etc. a FIXED payment per patient...and that is why many doctors are no longer taking medicare/Medicaid patients....when they no longer have any choice by force of law, that can be reasonably called 'socialized'......American style....

and really, from some of your previous posts, a good course in Remedial Reading Comprehension would do you a world of good....
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
So you pay a tax, to use the water, and you have no accountability if someone else uses more or wastes the water!!
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That's right. The cost is included in the property tax. It's not itemized. Some people have pools but being poo' folk I just have a gold fish pond but the birds like to bathe in the fountain that empties into the pond so it suits me fine.

We have certain lawn watering days but considering the neighborhood is mostly retired folk who bought here in the late 60s when water was plentiful.... well, let's just say green grass and sculptured trees take precedence over water conservation.
 
apple0154 said:
No, parts of the city, certain suburbs, do not have a water meter. It's included in the land tax. There is an on-going debate about installing meters but the cost to profit doesn't make sense.

Also, most properties in a suburb are the same size. Most households use the same amount of water so it makes sense to just average out the cost and divide it among the residents.
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I've not heard of any place in US like that, can you provide a link? It sounds like there would be no way to encourage people to care for plumbing, watering grass, etc. Most areas encourage the conservation of water or charge you user taxes.
 
Annie said:
I've not heard of any place in US like that, can you provide a link? It sounds like there would be no way to encourage people to care for plumbing, watering grass, etc. Most areas encourage the conservation of water or charge you user taxes.
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He lives in Canada and he wants the US to be like Canada; because he FEELS that Canada is Eden personified.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
He lives in Canada and he wants the US to be like Canada; because he FEELS that Canada is Eden personified.
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You reach a certain point no matter what country you're in where you think the canned soup you're eating is homemade bouillebaisse, and the spam is liver pate'.

Aricept helps keep them in check.
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
He lives in Canada and he wants the US to be like Canada; because he FEELS that Canada is Eden personified.
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Not necessarily. Canada still has a way to go.

What would be nice is to see the US adopt some of the social programs most industrialized countries have. The good news is there is now a President working in that direction. :)
 
Annie said:
I've not heard of any place in US like that, can you provide a link? It sounds like there would be no way to encourage people to care for plumbing, watering grass, etc. Most areas encourage the conservation of water or charge you user taxes.
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I'm a little further north. ;)
 
apple0154 said:
Not necessarily. Canada still has a way to go.

What would be nice is to see the US adopt some of the social programs most industrialized countries have. The good news is there is now a President working in that direction. :)
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Then I guess you're going to be really disappointed, when Canada becomes more like the US. :cof1:
 
apple0154 said:
I'm a little further north. ;)
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Well there you go then. Here people have incentives not to run 1/2 loads in dishwashers, washer/dryers. If watering their yards, they put on timers or keep an eye out on. Same with leaks in plumbing, leave those go, your water bill will jump. Conserve, you pay less.
 
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