Are values purely subjective?

Values, if separated from morality, seem to be subjective. Some cultures put huge value on family closeness, others don't. In some cultures females very regularly, and intentionally, marry men who are much older. In other cultures they don't.

Again, values are being viewed separately from morality. I think morality is much more objective.
 
Values, if separated from morality, seem to be subjective. Some cultures put huge value on family closeness, others don't. In some cultures females very regularly, and intentionally, marry men who are much older. In other cultures they don't.

Again, values are being viewed separately from morality. I think morality is much more objective.

All cultures believe sons and daughters should honor their mothers, and those that disrespect or abuse their mothers are percieved as social deviants.

Marriage is universally valued as an important institution, even if the particular facts and rituals vary.


I think a distinction has to be made between facts and particulars, and overarching universal values
 
All cultures believe sons and daughters should honor their mothers, and those that disrespect or abuse their mothers are percieved as social deviants.

Marriage is universally valued as an important institution, even if the particular facts and rituals vary.


I think a distinction has to be made between facts and particulars, and overarching universal values

In general, honoring mothers is probably universal. The degrees will vary a lot from family to family and culture to culture.

Same with marriage. In the US, a marriage ceremony can be performed by a homeless person who was ordained, via an online form, 2 minutes before the ceremony started. In other cultures, like Judaism, the groom has to sign a legal document, separate from a prenuptial agreement, agreeing to give his wife a specific amount of money if they should get divorced. Catholics have a nearly 2 hour ceremony in some cases.
 
In general, honoring mothers is probably universal. The degrees will vary a lot from family to family and culture to culture.

Same with marriage. In the US, a marriage ceremony can be performed by a homeless person who was ordained, via an online form, 2 minutes before the ceremony started. In other cultures, like Judaism, the groom has to sign a legal document, separate from a prenuptial agreement, agreeing to give his wife a specific amount of money if they should get divorced. Catholics have a nearly 2 hour ceremony in some cases.

I think what we might call "subjective" cultural values are frequently in reality just particulars, rules, and rituals masking an overarching universal cultural value.

Honoring the mother, maintaining relationships with family members, promoting the institution of marriage are universal cultural values of human societies. Regardless of the particular rules, rituals, and facts.
 
I think what we might call "subjective" cultural values are frequently in reality just particulars, rules, and rituals masking an overarching universal cultural value.

Honoring the mother, maintaining relationships with family members, promoting the institution of marriage are universal cultural values of human societies. Regardless of the particular rules, rituals, and facts.

Would you say that all cultures value educating for men and women? Would you say that all cultures value equality for homosexuals?
 
Would you say that all cultures value educating for men and women? Would you say that all cultures value equality for homosexuals?

Not all. What factors can be considered human as opposed to cultural.

Although there is a bell curve of "normality", the range of feminine and masculine has a genetic factor, like it or not. Yes, a lot is cultural, but there are some unique characteristics. Defining them is subject to debate.

Considering a Yin-Yang view of life, conservatism, maleness and fatherliness have an equal place in society as liberalism, feminity and motherliness.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...10/what-does-it-mean-be-feminine-or-masculine
What Does It Mean to Be Feminine or Masculine?
Neuroscientists have been researching distinguishers between male and female brains and trying to see if they translate into major differences between masculine and feminine traits. They have found a number of structural elements in the human brain that differ between males and females. For example, the right and left hemispheres of the male and female brains are not set up exactly the same way. Females tend to have verbal centers on both sides of the brain, while males tend to have verbal centers on only the left hemisphere. As a result, girls tend to have an advantage when it comes to discussing feelings and emotions, and they tend to have more interest in talking about them.

Researchers have also investigated the different chemical effects on the brain of testosterone in men and estrogen and progesterone in women. However, it seems that they have overstated the role of these chemicals in determining masculine and feminine characteristics and behaviors. For example, while testosterone is linked to aggression, it doesn’t offer a universal explanation for male behavior. In fact, everyone, regardless of sex, can be competitive or aggressive, but men and women in different cultures might have different ways of expressing those traits based on social norms. A major takeaway of chemistry differences is simply that boys at times need different strategies for stress release than girls do....

...The cultural expectations came about naturally due to the size and strength differential between men and women, and the division of labor for the tasks they were responsible for. For example, child care and homemaking were more suitable for women while hunting and physical labor were more suitable for men. Even though our societies have evolved and those tasks no longer define our roles in life, those roles still exist in our society to varying degrees.

It is helpful to understand this discrepancy when you live in a culture that has definite expectations about feminity and masculinity. You can stop attacking yourself for not fitting into these categorizations. You can come to accept yourself with all of your different characteristics and personality traits, be they passive and aggressive, strong and gentle, outspoken and soft-spoken. You can accept your partner’s qualities, as well. A romantic relationship is a partnership between two individuals and the unique personality traits that they each bring to it....
 
Would you say that all cultures value educating for men and women? Would you say that all cultures value equality for homosexuals?

In the context of human history, Gender equality and marriage equality for gays is practically a brand new, novel, and recently emergent value.

So we're still in virgin territory on these emerging and incipient values.

For almost all of recorded human history, patriarchy was ingrained in human civilization. That's about five thousand years

I'm not ready to start patting myself on the back yet for living in a country where tangible gender and sexual preference equality is just barely emerging in the last couple decades.
If Republicans have taught us anything, it's they are willing to strip the hard-won women's rights and gay rights the minute they are given sufficient power.
 
In the context of human history, Gender equality and marriage equality for gays is practically a brand new, novel, and recently emergent value.

So we're still in virgin territory on these emerging and incipient values.

For almost all of recorded human history, patriarchy was ingrained in human civilization. That's about five thousand years

I'm not ready to start patting myself on the back yet for living in a country where tangible gender and sexual preference equality is just barely emerging in the last couple decades.
If Republicans have taught us anything, it's they are willing to strip the hard-won women's rights and gay rights the minute they are given sufficient power.

It's up to society to decide as a group...and it appears their attitude is blowing back in their faces. Shuttting down the government will hurt them over a year from now.
 
Not all. What factors can be considered human as opposed to cultural.

Although there is a bell curve of "normality", the range of feminine and masculine has a genetic factor, like it or not. Yes, a lot is cultural, but there are some unique characteristics. Defining them is subject to debate.

Considering a Yin-Yang view of life, conservatism, maleness and fatherliness have an equal place in society as liberalism, feminity and motherliness.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...10/what-does-it-mean-be-feminine-or-masculine
What Does It Mean to Be Feminine or Masculine?

"Not all. What factors can be considered human as opposed to cultural."

The question was about values, not evolution or biology.
 
I think what we might call "subjective" cultural values are frequently in reality just particulars, rules, and rituals masking an overarching universal cultural value.

Honoring the mother, maintaining relationships with family members, promoting the institution of marriage are universal cultural values of human societies. Regardless of the particular rules, rituals, and facts.

I think "values" is a very vague, all-encompassing term that applies to valuing equality. You're basically ignoring degrees of valuing and trying to redefine the term "value".
 
"Not all. What factors can be considered human as opposed to cultural."

The question was about values, not evolution or biology.
It still applies as shown with previously posted comparative psychology examples.

Are values purely genetic, purely subjective or a mix of both? Chimp mothers often protect their young and work together as a troop. Same for some other species. Ergo, some "values" are genetic. This makes sense as a matter of species survival. Even a new male lion taking over a pride and killing all the cubs not his makes some genetic sense.

That said, as Cypress has mentioned; how does such genetic code explain helping a stranger on the road? A soldier having compassion for a wounded enemy soldier? Some of that is cultural indoctrination. As for soldiers, boot camp and combat training is geared to overcome 18 years of being trained to not cause harm to fellow human beings. Gang bangers clearly have little concern about the lives of others when they open up with automatic weapons on a crowd of people to nail one guy. What are their values and where did they get such values?

On you question, it's a mix of biological evolution and culture. Understanding where the line is drawn between them is a matter of research and debate.


https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780199828340/obo-9780199828340-0176.xml
Comparative psychology, a subdiscipline of psychology, is the scientific study of the behavior and cognition of human and non-human animals, with emphasis on how behavior relates to phylogeny, ontogeny, and adaptation. Rooted in evolutionary principles, the field of comparative psychology seeks to answer a multitude of questions on a variety of species, with particular interest in how it relates to human behavior.
 
I think "values" is a very vague, all-encompassing term that applies to valuing equality. You're basically ignoring degrees of valuing and trying to redefine the term "value".
My understanding is that Cypress believes there is a basic universal human standard of values. I agree, although we don't always agree on where the lines are drawn.

These values would mostly be genetically driven. Culture has raised the bar on what those values are. "Might makes Right" is a basic value in the animal world and, therefore, basic to human behavior.
 
I think "values" is a very vague, all-encompassing term that applies to valuing equality. You're basically ignoring degrees of valuing and trying to redefine the term "value".

I don't think it's mysterious at all,

Cambridge Dictionary:

Values--> the beliefs people have, especially about what is right and wrong and what is most important in life

though when you get down in the weeds the details have to be worked out.
 
It still applies as shown with previously posted comparative psychology examples.

Are values purely genetic, purely subjective or a mix of both? Chimp mothers often protect their young and work together as a troop. Same for some other species. Ergo, some "values" are genetic. This makes sense as a matter of species survival. Even a new male lion taking over a pride and killing all the cubs not his makes some genetic sense.

That said, as Cypress has mentioned; how does such genetic code explain helping a stranger on the road? A soldier having compassion for a wounded enemy soldier? Some of that is cultural indoctrination. As for soldiers, boot camp and combat training is geared to overcome 18 years of being trained to not cause harm to fellow human beings. Gang bangers clearly have little concern about the lives of others when they open up with automatic weapons on a crowd of people to nail one guy. What are their values and where did they get such values?

On you question, it's a mix of biological evolution and culture. Understanding where the line is drawn between them is a matter of research and debate.


https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780199828340/obo-9780199828340-0176.xml
Comparative psychology, a subdiscipline of psychology, is the scientific study of the behavior and cognition of human and non-human animals, with emphasis on how behavior relates to phylogeny, ontogeny, and adaptation. Rooted in evolutionary principles, the field of comparative psychology seeks to answer a multitude of questions on a variety of species, with particular interest in how it relates to human behavior.

There is no evolutionary requirements for why we hold aesthetic beauty in such high regard, beauty is universally considered an important value to human life.
I really don't think rats care if they live in a dilapidated apartment building in Toledo Ohio, or in a mountain lodge at Banff.


Mountains-region-Ten-Peaks-Moraine-Lake-Alberta.jpg
.
 
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There is no evolutionary reason we hold aesthetic beauty in such high regard, beauty is universally considered an important value to human life.
I really don't think rats care if they live in a dilapidated apartment building in Toledo Ohio, or in a mountain lodge at Banff.


https://cdn.britannica.com/71/94371-050-293AE931/Mountains-region-Ten-Peaks-Moraine-Lake-Alberta.jpg .

A slight disagreement. Rats, at least on a rat level, see "beauty" in good food and a mate. Like most animals, humans are attracted to some potential mates over others. IMO, that's the basis of "beauty". The fact human beings have such a highly capable brain that they extrapolate that appreciation of beauty into other things is just part of what makes humans so extraordianry.

Consider how some members of JPP see beauty in cars. Some don't, but see it in airplanes. Others, a woman's ass. The maxim "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" points out that human beings individually decide what they think is beautiful. While you and I can agree that the majestic peaks over Lake Alberta are beautiful, I won't go so far as to say all people will see them that way meaning there is no "universal" standard of beauty. Just a range of what most people consider beautiful.
 
My understanding is that Cypress believes there is a basic universal human standard of values. I agree, although we don't always agree on where the lines are drawn.

These values would mostly be genetically driven. Culture has raised the bar on what those values are. "Might makes Right" is a basic value in the animal world and, therefore, basic to human behavior.

I think humans have the minds to think abstractly and transcend basic evolutionary requirements to imagine values that enhance human life, but aren't neccessarily required for Darwinian evolution and the propagation of our genetic code.


The eightfold path and the Sermon on the Plain have very little to do with basic evolutionary requirements.
 
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I think humans have the minds to think abstractly and transcend basic evolutionary requirements to imagine values that enhance human life, but aren't neccessarily required for Darwinian evolution and the propagation of our genetic code.


The eightfold path and the Sermon on the Plain have very little to do with basic evolutionary requirements.
Agreed about the human mind. This goes back to the synergistic effect of human evolution and resulting human abilities. This same effect is a main concern about AI; that AI abilities may exceed its own programming.
 
I don't think it's mysterious at all,

Cambridge Dictionary:

Values--> the beliefs people have, especially about what is right and wrong and what is most important in life

though when you get down in the weeds the details have to be worked out.

Right. So, do you believe that, for example, Islamists value women in the same way that western cultures generally do?
 
Right. So, do you believe that, for example, Islamists value women in the same way that western cultures generally do?

No, they don't. Same for gays. Why do you think that is, 'Mode? Is it genetic or cultural? What should be done about it, if anything?
 
Right. So, do you believe that, for example, Islamists value women in the same way that western cultures generally do?
I don't think I ever insinuated that every single cultural value everywhere is uniform and universal.

I don't think you can lump all of Islam into into one box. Turkey, Malaysia, Azerbaijan, and Bosnia-Herzegovina are not the same as Iran, Yemen , and Afghanistan.

I'm not ready to join you in patting ourselves on the back for how liberal and forward thinking we are. Only 50 years ago women's rights and gay rights in the USA was not substantially different from the Islamic world in general.

We are still in virgin territory.

We know that Republicans in Mississopt, Utah, and DC would love to turn the clock back on gender and sexual preference laws, if they are given sufficient power.

So I'm not ready to pop the champagne cork to celebrate how superior we are to Bosnia and Kazakhstan.
 
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